Topic: Would you move jurisdiction to avoid tax on your coinage? (Read 614 times)

I think they were referring to the fact that completely free health care is completely unsustainable and that if something does not change that the health care system will collapse. People have accepted this, when it comes to health 10 EUR per month is not so much - and for some of the most vulnerable categories the state pays this fee and still provides free health care.

The much bigger problem is that the waiting lists for some health tests are so long (3+ months) that people are forced to go to private clinics. I recently had the choice to wait 3+ months, and in a private clinic I did everything in less than 2 days and paid about 100 EUR. Private health care has been on the rise in the last decade or so, at least in my country - it has its price, but sometimes it is the only choice.

I knew some people who suddenly ended up in the hospital without additional insurance, and as you say, the price of such treatment can be several thousand EUR.

Was there a great deal of resistance to it or was it an acceptable development? If they tried that in the UK people would be ripping their panties off and strangling each other.

France has top up health insurance. A friend of my father's moved there from Scotland, didn't bother sorting that out, had a huge car crash and was landed with a medical bill for many thousands of Euros.

Let's say it's in the country that last joined the EU. Previously, health insurance was completely free, but for years the so-called supplementary health insurance has been introduced and costs approximately 10 EUR per month - and if you do not have it, you have to pay for each visit to the doctor or each examination you do. For those who do not go to the doctor often, this is not a problem - but if by any chance you have to go to the hospital, the costs without such additional insurance are terribly high.

Where's that? I haven't heard of countries having a full on downgrade.

Much of Europe has health insurance, either compulsory or top up. In Ireland you pay 50 Euros to see the doctor and pay a daily cost for a hospital stay. The idea of everywhere in Europe being free at point of contact isn't really true, but it still beats the pants off the US.

When you look at it from that angle than one can wonder for a reason where my money goes, especially if you don't have free health care available or see how hundreds of thousands of soldiers from your country are involved in various wars around the world due to geostrategic interests (otherwise they call it the spread of democracy).

I used to have free health care, and now I have to pay for every visit to the doctor or I have to pay a fixed fee every month to have free health care. What I see is that the EU is copying some things from the USA and I don’t like that, and I like it less and less to live in one such community where we are all in a union, but we are actually fighting each other at every opportunity.

The original idea of leaving the EU was put together by rich psycho cocksucker assholes who wanted to undercut the tax and regulatory regimes of nearby countries while destroying the quality of life of normal people to pay for it. It was not to raise taxes.

This is entirely a response to the Covid fun and its cost.

what i see?  i see the goverment will start taking from the rich by high taxes.


to do this they had to leave from eu to make sure uk people dont start to move money to abroad.

everything is connected and worksstep by step i myself been in uk and i know exacly what is going on there.

the tax rising is only way to protect british pound sterling value.

london been money favorite destination uk pound use to be most demand currency at the times becouse the money the IMF loanded to 3 rd world countries been invested in london luxury proprties as we know those properties never ment to be they living there it was just excuses to move money into uk.


its win win situation they got money from IMF and they exchnaged this into uk good value currency.



what is uk now?  its like circus was party was but the mess is left behind.

uk economy was based on pure financial speculation the boom is popped and bye bye uk pound.



what can save the situation in uk?  need new investment and capital so the other country richest goverment officials and olcargars need to invest in uk then the demand to have uk pounds will grow and uk pound sterling will grow again if not then sorry uk pound will fall down and will be less worthed.

also a lot indian high inflated currency been invested in uk


the uk curreny high demand wich has made uk pound sterling strongest in the world.


in this economic situation the europe has world best situation right now on the economic market.

Of course they ain't. Most of it is going on wastage or paying for things I'll never need or violently disagree with.

But it's the price of staying relatively free. Not a bargain but it's the only game in town.

On my side of the globe, I'm not really affected since the government here doesn't seem to have any interest in taxing crypto gains as of the moment and are still exploring options on where to get some taxes from. They are exploring internet streaming apps and even social media to be taxed which, to me, is kinda annoying and really unnecessary. But in the event that my coins are taxed wildly by that percentage, I'd say it's time to head out and find a country that is more forgiving in taxing cryptocurrencies. The Philippines is starting to think some crazy ideas to gather tax money from the citizens in order to make up for the lost profits from the pandemic, though little does the administration understand that its citizens are comprised mostly of middle-class families with just enough money to live comfortably here.


This is what I thought of some time since most traders are trying to find a workaround on btc taxation such as doing this. There would be no workaround if the exchanges are in cooperation with the government to impose these taxes.


And provided that they are really being used for the welfare of the society and not just going inside the pockets of those who are seated in the public offices.

Of course. It always depends on the value of a single purchase. It's much easier to hide the purchase of 2 small apartments than a big mansion in the suburbs.


In most EU countries they do it like this. When you buy property the notary has to report the value for tax purposes. The property and paid tax go into the database where they sometimes put the total value of your purchases against your paid income tax. If you paid very little = you had not much income and shouldn't be able to make that purchase.
Store purchases don't get reported this way. Nobody knows if you have a computer with a virtulal reality setup worth 10k USD in your room. Nobody knows if you have a swimming pool in the garden. These things don't get reported anywhere or compared against your income/taxes.


They are looking for money wherever they can, even if it means cheating people and stealing from them. I can give you some more ridiculous things the government came up with.
For instance, they are checking people's wells to find if they're not taking water from their wells and using it in the house. If you have such setup you are supposed to have a meter on your well water so that they can charge you for waste water.
They are also snooping around properties to see if people are not cutting trees without paying for them. Yes, you have to pay for each tree cut on your property and the cost depends on diameter of the trunk.
They are flying drones to check if people aren't building anything without permits. I'd agree if it was about the house, but they are comparing the pictures of your house with these made with drones to see if you did not add anything like a garage.
They are charging big properties with rain tax. If you have a big roof you have to pay for the rainwater. This is by far the most ridiculous tax.

Because of the above, I'll try my best to avoid whatever taxes I can and won't feel like a cheater or a thief. As long as the government will keep making up new ways to steal from me, I'll be doing the same.

Yes. Btc to altcoin is a taxable event too.it's classed as a disposal just like a sale into fiat. I'm sure many a trader didn't know that and ran up a vast potential bill. They'll likely get away with it but in future much less so.

Taxes are a fact of life and I'm fine with it provided they're reasonable enough. More than doubling is not reasonable.

I would like to fetch some help that how is bitcoin or other coins taxed in your country as capital gains? Reading the bare text of law you generally consider tax on coins when they are realized into fiat. Are you paying tax even when you sell your coins in BTC pair? Because even that is relinquishment of an asset.

Coming to the tax rate, I feel that the whole world is having this problem of high taxes for individuals. Moving to a tax heaven too doesn't makes sense as these days all countries are placing certain restrictions on people having assets in tax heaven. My country notifies such countries as Notified jurisdictional areas and have placed certain increased tax rates on transactions with people of these countries without giving them the benefit of double tax avoidance agreements. Governments globally are now seeing these tax heavens companies as shady shell companies even though you carry a legitimate business.

For some small things it is not a problem to sell BTC and use fiat to pay for goods and services of lesser value. Theoretically, no one will ask me where I got my BTC with which I paid for a plane ticket or hotel accommodation, but the origin of the property is something that is a very serious matter in some countries. I think that in Sweden, for example, there is an online database where everyone can look at what someone else owns and compare it with their income, and in case they suspect some irregularities they can very easily report it.

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Water should be one of the basic human rights, and if it is on your property no one should ask you to pay taxes because you use it. And I know of cases in my country where people have to pay to use such water, but for now only if they use it in commercial agricultural production. A lot of things that were perfectly normal and free 20 years ago are no longer today, but it's just a result of the government's efforts to make people as dependent on the state as possible - and if you have your own water, produce your own food, your own electricity and maybe use Bitcoin - then you present a problem.

https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/eu-consommateurs/PDFs/PDF_EN/Limit_for_cash_payments_in_EU.pdf

It varies wildly between countries. And even if you do manage to buy a Southfork style ranch with cash in the middle of suburban Paris you're still likely to have a small problem explaining the origin of the cash.

I think it is a wise action on your side

^
Many EU states have the duty to accept cash written in the law, so it's really not that hard to spend cash. In the country it's customary to use cash everywhere, starting from gifts and ending in real estate purchases. Want to buy a car or a motorcycle? You go to a dude, write down the agreement on the spot, hand him cash and off you go. Got a job for a mechanic, a gardener, basically any other contractor? All of them will take cash.
I could think of a dozen clean and legal ways to spend 100k EUR within a week.

In this day and age a large amount of cash is a flat out liability in many places. Bizarre that it's come to this but if someone offered me tens or hundreds of thousands of Euros in cash I'd likely refuse it. There's only so much shopping and car filling I can do.

I already have some backup plans in motion that allow me to avoid taxes. Not to give too much details, I have people willing to buy BTC from me for cash for a small fee, basically any amount, so I'm not really afraid of sudden capital gains taxes being imposed.
I'm planning to move for other reasons. The EU is becoming more and more socialist and the governments are making up some strange taxes every year. For instance people used to have wells on their properties, but now the EU is thinking about taxing people for the water they collect. I bet their next step is going to be taxing for rain collected from the roofs. We're going to have meters on our downspouts. In many places you even have to register your solar panels with the government and ask for permits to build a stupid wooden shed in your back yard.

I'd rather stay where I'm at but giving up that big a chunk is a motivator to think again. There's degrees of extremity. Some tax black holes are so out of the way or cabin feverish you'd probably spend what you were saving on trying to make it liveable, or bearable.

The tax havens I've been to all seemed a tad uptight and creepy. When the prime reason most of the population has to be there is money that's going to infect the vibe.

The EU is a group of countries that, out of some common interests, want to be together, but at the same time each country wants to be autonomous and independent in some respects. Personally, I have never liked the idea of such an association, which literally falls apart every time it encounters a crisis - and when it comes to cryptocurrencies, each country has a different policy.

Given the current situation of the EU and the rest of the world, it is very likely that the authorities will look for all possible ways to replenish the state treasuries - all this free money should be collected from somewhere.

I personally count on Bitcoin to be the usual means of payment in 5-10 years, so I won't even have to convert it to fiat - and then I can go on a trip around the world, so let anyone tax me - if they can

despite the supposedly egalitarian nature of the american tax audit system, i've seen multiple tax analysts (including former IRS workers) say audits are all about cost/benefit, and that's how the IRS structures their audit flagging system---to catch big fish, not small ones. actually it's a matter of fact now that i'm looking it up. if you make $1M+ then your chances of an audit go up almost 10x. https://money.com/audit-red-flags/

beyond that, for small fries like us, i'd like to think that if you cross all your Ts and dot all your Is---like reporting all the 1099 income bitcoin exchanges are handing to the IRS and play it smart by not claiming all sorts of deductions, credits, write-offs---that an audit is unlikely. especially when you consider how complex and time-consuming an audit of a crypto user could be.

now that i think about it, that's probably the motivation behind the mass letter campaigns they've been doing. they don't have anywhere near the resources to audit all those letter recipients. they're just hoping to scare 90% of them into filing amended returns and ponying up the unpaid taxes.


that's the dream, ain't it? to go live on a beach somewhere where taxes and cost of living are cheap. i haven't amassed quite enough riches yet myself.

Most places have 20% ours is STILL 20% the 45% was just a proposition. Although it'd probably make more sense to increase stamp duty (paid on stock and property purchases) instead - actually they reduced stamp duty on properties.


Ours is around 45% for highest earners (earning more than ~£200k $240k) - below that the top tax bracket is 50% but obviously if you earn £120k then only 20% is  charged at the full 50% tax rate so it is more like 36%...

For legal reasons the EU considers the UK, Ireland and Switzerland as tax havens - which seems weird considering our tax rates are high for everything but corporations tax (but our 19% is still high - I think a lot of the rest of Europe is a mere percent higher).


I think there might also be a chance you have to pay the same tax in two countries if one charges tax based on disposing and one charges on accumulation.


Also if you don't declare it and they have a type of tax for capital gains on currency, you're probably still going to be expected to pay it - the European court of justice has stated they view cryptocurrency as currency and such you're going to have to follow those taxation laws.

As long as it has a measurable value they will want to tax it. It doesn't need a legal definition as long as it's not explicitly illegal.

I find the radically different rules in each EU country kinda weird. You'd think by this point they would've started to harmonise it.




Of course you can attempt to hide it. You might get away with it. You more might be nailed to wall and have your life blown up. In most countries tax declarations are taken on trust. It's not often they look further but when they do they do not mess around. People pay tax for the sake of a quiet life.

I don't have any ties so going elsewhere is no big deal for me. It would be a bit different if I had 50 kids and a disabled budgerigar. Handing over an extra quarter of one's entire profit, if it happens, would be enough to motivate me to consider shopping elsewhere.

If we look only at the EU, each country has its own attitude towards cryptocurrencies, and there are really few in which there are people in government structures who understand what Bitcoin is and how to apply taxes when trading the same. If a central bank says that Bitcoin is nothing (literally), then how will the tax administration collect tax on something like that? Therefore, in some EU member states, despite the new AMLD5 directive, Bitcoin is still under the radar and uses legal loopholes to avoid taxation - which will surely changed when someone realizes that there is room for taxation.

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Maybe it's not a problem to hide that you have a BTC, and maybe you can sell it without the authorities knowing about it - but the problem arises if you spend that money on something (say you buy an apartment/house, a new car) and you can't prove the origin of that property.

Well, first and foremost, I cannot relate not only because I am not making much profit in Bitcoin but also because we have here in my country not only an archaic tax system but also very poor collection implementation.

I am just kind of amused at how people from other countries find this a big problem to the point of contemplating of leaving their own place. I mean, your tax man must be doing his job diligently and efficiently.

It makes me wonder, is there really no way you can hide away from your tax man's snooping at your Bitcoin or crypto profit?

If I live in that country or jurisdiction, it would depend on how much I'm holding, but since I don't own a lot then maybe I'll just stay.

As per our culture, we like to be near to our family so if I'm into that situation I might have to think over and over and evaluate which is more important, the money I can save through reduction of taxes in my capital gains or the family that I will left behind, I think if I have to decide now, I'll choose family over money as it's hard to adjust to live in a new country when you are already get used to the culture you have ever since. However, maybe things would chance if I'm already in the actual situation. Money, money, money....

speaking of which, south korea just passed a new tax on crypto trading income. it's actually pretty favorable compared to many other countries at 20%---slightly lower than the existing tax on stock trading income, and equal to the upper tier long term capital gains rate in the USA. https://cointelegraph.com/news/south-korea-finalizes-cryptocurrency-income-tax-of-20

i was surprised to see folks bitching and moaning about it, considering how bad taxes are in parts of europe, japan, etc. 20% is usually the minimum rate i pay on capital gains, and my average rate is definitely higher.

Yes, especially with something as fast moving as this. A lot of jurisdictions are still dithering and edicts could arrive any time. I'd feel a right twat if I'd moved somewhere only for the rates to be jacked up.

I'm impressed at some of the rates in non tax havens but it seems a bit strange for those countries to let that much potential tax slide.

I think that Japan has a tax of up to 55% for those who have the most income, but as I once commented in the past, I think that everything over 25% is too much, and you should not agree to pay as much as 45% no matter what the situation - those stories to be in solidarity and give half of our profit to the state with me personally will never pass, even at the cost of having to move elsewhere.

Fortunately, I can still buy/sell crypto (up to a certain limit) without any tax and KYC because such laws are still in force in my country, but for those who want to file a tax it is about 20% (depending on the region where the taxpayer lives). Also, as in Germany which has the law "no tax after 1 year of holding", I have the option not to pay tax after 2 years from the purchase.

But such laws are changeable, and it can happen that someone moves to a country that has very favorable tax laws, and they literally become very unfavorable overnight.

You could well be right and I might be talking out my arse and being infected by American tax talk. There are some accountants on here who've gone through various scenarios - https://old.reddit.com/r/BitcoinUK/  I'll have to dig around.

If it really is jacked up to 45% I'm going to have to give it some proper thought. My feeling is that it's something proposed by civil servants and a lot of the stuff they come out with gets squashed by the people in government who have to face the wrath of the actual population. We'll see.

I assumed based on this

Say I bought 1BTC at $6k, and sold at $300k but rebought at $100k.
I then would have to pay CGT on $200k surely but not on the additional $100k as my holdings remain the same in btc.

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Also the thing on the taxes coming in immediately is a stupid plan anyway and this is what makes an economic crisis worse. If they waited for the 2013-2015 of the last crash to put up tax rates - they'd find so much less of a problem to the economy.

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I might put some funds into a SIPP before we rise too much too.

But if you sell at 300 grand presumably your buy in was a few hundred pounds or a few thousand per coin. You'll be liable for 20% of that 295 grand profit or whatever. Doesn't matter if it doesn't leave the exchange and is near immediately used to buy back a coin for less. At that moment of sale you realised all of that profit.

The tax man is going to get cosier with all the exchanges as time goes on. If you'd gone trading mad in 2014/15 I doubt they'll pay much attention. I wouldn't take the risk now and even if your trading is under the radar your final cash out won't be and they may want a break down as to how you got that figure.

Ah yeah I just checked what I assumed was the excemption and realised it was different (the "bed and breakfasting" rules as they're called.

I'd just buy the same number at the lower rate. And yeah I remember the funds withdrawal are based on the acquisition terratory too so there's no chance you're going to be able to ignore debts and move, unles you move to an uncooperative terratory such as anywhere below Canada in America.

I'ma have some fun trying to work out what I need to pay in tax last year and this - given I have a bot set up to trade...

Am still looking for more dailies to address the issue, its a discussion in government over 3 months which so called wealthy also support. We need a comprehensive description of the wealthy. Some wealthy had lost so much in the pandemic and assisting a conservative UK will be helpful. I dont expect most wealthy crypto billionaire to be cashing out fiat at the moment and their money may be difficult to follow, which give an advantage to be anonymous

No way in hell would the tax man let you go that easily. I remember reading about Guy Hands, who owned EMI, moving to Guernsey to avoid a giant tax bill. He spends his days rattling around his empty mansion counting down the days he can go see his family back in England again. And if he overstays by a second they'll pounce on him.

They want very convincing proof you have properly cut your ties with mainland Britain before relenting.


Every trade is taxable, be it BTC/shitcoin or BTC/fiat. If you sell to buy a dip then if what you sold made a profit compared to what you paid for it then it's CGT time. Doesn't matter if you buy back in ten minutes later for less. You realised a gain.

You see manic traders turning up on Reddit screaming about tax bills because they didn't realise every shitcoin move they had made on exchanges came with a bill, and they made thousands of them. Less of a problem for Brits than Americans but it's still possible.

For other legal purposes, I "incorporated" myself a while ago so I was previously aiming to pay the 19% corporation tax and put profits into stocks/property - moving £20k a year into an isa and paying income tax on that (which I assume is possible)

Either that or I'll just do like last time and sell at the first major dip and buy the resistance - then there's no tax to pay at all - I'll end up doing this with most anyway but I was hoping to pull out 2/5ths if we got up to $300k and sank to $50k (adjusted for similar after the first major drop where I plan to exit).


I think there's a tax dodging survice you can buy on the isle of man where you buy a plaque in a building and get your post forwarded (with some extra services thrown in imo).


I'm not sure on other countries relationships with money but I think there is a golden visa opportunity for $2M (way beyond my budget) and Belgium also allow you to momve a company there if it produces more than 50 Euro a day (imo) - which doesn't seem too hard to achieve (though I haven't tried it sustainably yet).

Since the government were annoyed about consumers paying "foreigners" to pick strawberries, we may well not be able to travel there soon though.

Property/real estate has its own tax rate and 28% is what you pay on your capital gain if you're a higher rate tax payer, 20% if you're a lower rate but if your profit raises that year's income into the higher band you pay the higher rate too.

For everything that is not real estate the highest rate is 20%, the lower 10%.

As far as I know there's no leeway given to your time periods in the UK. It's all those rates.

We do get an exemption which means you can spend about $15,000 of capital gains every year tax free. The American system of everything is plain weird. We also have other weird loopholes like art, classic cars and wine being completely exempt.

I'm hoping they close loopholes and squash exemptions rather than raise it.

is it 20% or 28%?


the USA taxes short term capital gains at the ordinary income tax rate, but long term gains get a significant tax break. i know germany has a similar system.

does the UK tax code make no distinction like that? holding for 2 days is the same as holding for 2 years?

A nice surprise when you realised otherwise. Less so when it might be whipped away from you shortly after.

We have our very own tax havens on our doorstep like the Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey, Sark and Alderney. None of them have capital gains tax. Not sure how easy it is to turn up there and not be hassled by the UK tax man. Jersey won't let you on. Guernsey has population controls too. Sark and Alderney would drive you mad with cabin fever. Isle of Man might be a goer.

The B word might make skipping somewhere else close by a lot harder for a Brit. We'll have to see what arrangements happen when it's all done and dusted.

Tbh, I thought it was still 45% until a few months ago.... It'd encourage me to just keep holding bitcoin if the rates go up and wait on moving.

It'd make somewhere like Belgium (30% rate) much easier to move to though (they have a low statute of about 3 years if you move a company there and pass a language test in German or French).

In the UK there's talk of raising capital gains to be in line with income tax to pay for our virus holidays. For a large amount of profit in Bitcoin and friends that would mean an increase from 20% to 45%.

https://archive.is/VJrzY

There's a good chance of it not happening as it'll outrage the government's rich friends but if it does 45% would be way too much and I'd look seriously at relocating as there's not much keeping me here anyway. 20% I can absolutely live with. Over double and I'm going to get serious about shopping elsewhere.

Do you have a limit to your tolerance or would you stay put no matter what rates they threw at you? I expect many other countries will be looking at low hanging fruit too.