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Topic: Writing down seed phrase: printer ink or pen ink ? (Read 1190 times)

legendary
Activity: 2870
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a thief knows that a diary can be used to blackmail someone.

Aside from how much thief bother doing it, there's risk of getting tracked or the victim decide it's cheaper to ignore the blackmail.

I know that these are very real scenarios you are talking about here, but can't you evade most of them by keeping a revolver under your pillow while you sleep?

Most country has strict permit for gun ownership though.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469
Aside from how much thief bother doing it, there's risk of getting tracked or the victim decide it's cheaper to ignore the blackmail.


it all depends how much trouble the victim could get in if their personal data got shared to the wrong party.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
a thief knows that a diary can be used to blackmail someone.
Burglars don't want to keep taps on their victims. Get money, get out, and don't look back.

can't you evade most of them by keeping a revolver under your pillow while you sleep?
Maybe in Texas, but not where I live.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
a thief knows that a diary can be used to blackmail someone. if it has really sensitive personal information or just information the person doesn't want anyone to know. that's why a diary is a liability just as much as a bitcoin private key on a piece of paper is a liability if anyone finds it.
It is so much easier to hide a tiny piece of paper at home than it is to hide anything else. For example I have a lot of books at home, a bunch of documents, etc. that makes hiding some text inside one of them very easy.
Not to mention that a thief coming to your home would steal other valuables such as jewelry not search for your paper wallet which could be encrypted which would make it useless to them.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469

I know that these are very real scenarios you are talking about here, but can't you evade most of them by keeping a revolver under your pillow while you sleep?

no not if you're not home when they rob you.

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Most theives are cowards, particularly when they are by themselves and you point first, so he wouldn't dare take anything while there's a gun pointed to his head.


that's why they wait until you're not there.

legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

I know that these are very real scenarios you are talking about here, but can't you evade most of them by keeping a revolver under your pillow while you sleep?

Most theives are cowards, particularly when they are by themselves and you point first, so he wouldn't dare take anything while there's a gun pointed to his head.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469

It indeed won't help against a targeted attack, but how likely are those?

if the thief knows about bitcoin, i'd say it is very likely.

Quote
I'm talking about the millions of burglaries where the thief looks for valuables and wants to get out as quickly as possible again. 12 words under your pillow will be noticed, 12 words in a long written text will be ignored.

a thief knows that a diary can be used to blackmail someone. if it has really sensitive personal information or just information the person doesn't want anyone to know. that's why a diary is a liability just as much as a bitcoin private key on a piece of paper is a liability if anyone finds it.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
a reasonably sophistocated attacker would simply get the diary into a text file then search for strings of keywords in the bip 39 wordlist. "blanket air setup scrap feature actress prison bitter cash torch vacant valley" would stick out like a sore thumb. so keeping the 12 words together would be like handing over your seed phrase to an attacker on a silver platter.
It indeed won't help against a targeted attack, but how likely are those? I'm talking about the millions of burglaries where the thief looks for valuables and wants to get out as quickly as possible again. 12 words under your pillow will be noticed, 12 words in a long written text will be ignored.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469

That's easy: just read through your own handwriting, until you stumble onto 12 words that form an incoherent sentence. It might take you a few hours, but you'll find it.

well yeah but if someone else found the diary they would do the same exact thing.


Quote
That's true. And that's why I wouldn't suggest adding your own encoding, just keep the 12 words together. I'll give you a hint: search for "Blanket" on this page Smiley

a reasonably sophistocated attacker would simply get the diary into a text file then search for strings of keywords in the bip 39 wordlist. "blanket air setup scrap feature actress prison bitter cash torch vacant valley" would stick out like a sore thumb. so keeping the 12 words together would be like handing over your seed phrase to an attacker on a silver platter.

Quote
That's because I couldn't find a meaningful diary to download as an example Tongue In real life, if you have a diary already, you can just add the seed words today in the middle of your story. The coming months it will be hidden "deeper".
not really. an attacker will just be even more motivated to crack your diary. the bigger it is the more exciting for them. especially if they think there is any type of anomoly with your diary like you are trying to hide some type of information or the diary entries don't make sense.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
yeah but in that case, the person the diary belongs to might forget how to decode it too. so back to square 1.
That's easy: just read through your own handwriting, until you stumble onto 12 words that form an incoherent sentence. It might take you a few hours, but you'll find it.

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whenever you try and obfuscate information inside other information, you run the risk that you forget the encoding process and how to recover the information.
That's true. And that's why I wouldn't suggest adding your own encoding, just keep the 12 words together. I'll give you a hint: search for "Blanket" on this page Smiley

Quote
a diary composed of list of meaningless sentences, sounds like a bitcoin private key hiding somewhere. Grin
That's because I couldn't find a meaningful diary to download as an example Tongue In real life, if you have a diary already, you can just add the seed words today in the middle of your story. The coming months it will be hidden "deeper".
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469

If you don't know what you're looking for, you're going to have to read through 100 pages of (potentially) terrible handwriting. If you don't even know there's a seed phrase in it, I'd say it could be safer than a piece of paper with 12 words.

yeah but in that case, the person the diary belongs to might forget how to decode it too. so back to square 1. whenever you try and obfuscate information inside other information, you run the risk that you forget the encoding process and how to recover the information. the chances are extremely high in the 100 pages of dummy text you gave that the person who created the diary would forget how to recover their seed phrase. unless the only words in that entire diary on the wordlist were the seed words but that would be a red flag to anyone analyzing the diary they would figure that out too.

a diary composed of list of meaningless sentences, sounds like a bitcoin private key hiding somewhere. Grin
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
why would a diary be any safer than a piece of paper? ~ if anyone ever finds your diary, there will be no doubt that it's something to read through.
I'd have to be really bored to read diaries, and for sure wouldn't expect to find money in there. I can imagine it works to "hide in plain sight". Let's say you have 100 pages like this:
Quote
But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains. But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains. But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains. But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains. Blanket air setup scrap feature actress prison bitter cash torch vacant valley. But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains.But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated
(quote taken from blindtextgenerator.com with 12 added seed words from IanColeman)

If you don't know what you're looking for, you're going to have to read through 100 pages of (potentially) terrible handwriting. If you don't even know there's a seed phrase in it, I'd say it could be safer than a piece of paper with 12 words.
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1296
Crypto Casino and Sportsbook
Engrave it on steel & hide it in your home or something. I don’t like seed words written or printed on paper. Too many things can go wrong. You’ll need at least one copy, preferably not in the same location.
Putting text on a metal object will be the best way, although there are many nuances here too: starting from whether the metal is not oxidized and what grade of steel. The choice of how to store  seed phrase will depend on what kind of environmental exposure you want to protect the item from in the first place.
 
If we return to the question that OP asks (what to choose between printer ink or pen ink?), then it seems to me that both options are not very good. In the case of using a printer, phrase will have to be entered on the PC, which is a weak point due to which the text can be compromised. Pen ink fades over time and the text ceases to be readable, which is also bad. Of these two options, I would still choose pen ink with the caveat that will need to choose high-quality ink that will be resistant and will not lose its properties over a long period of time.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469
piece of paper, I'm sure you have faced the issue of finding an invoice or some paper on which you have written a phone number and now can't find it.
I keep my diary really safe so if you are that kinda person, I would suggest a diary over a piece of paper and please write using a BALL Point Pen

why would a diary be any safer than a piece of paper? they made out of the same material. plus if anyone ever finds your diary, there will be no doubt that it's something to read through. because it contains personal information. private stuff.
legendary
Activity: 3556
Merit: 9709
#1 VIP Crypto Casino
Engrave it on steel & hide it in your home or something. I don’t like seed words written or printed on paper. Too many things can go wrong. You’ll need at least one copy, preferably not in the same location.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
saving your seed on any kind of mobile app or note on a PC/Laptop is absolutely not advisable.

I personally feel the safest is a diary, but I have had people have an opposite view on this.
but a diary is way better than a piece of paper, I'm sure you have faced the issue of finding an invoice or some paper on which you have written a phone number and now can't find it.
I keep my diary really safe so if you are that kinda person, I would suggest a diary over a piece of paper and please write using a BALL Point Pen
legendary
Activity: 3682
Merit: 1580
You need the threshold number of seed phrases or master private keys, which in a 3-of-5 wallet will be three. You then need at least a master public key from the remaining shares, which will be the other two. However, for these other two shares, instead of the master public key you can use a seed phrase or master private key instead, since the wallet can derive the necessary master public keys.
Now you have confused me. Grin
If I use a 3-of-5 multisig setup and I have all 5 seed phrases, will the wallet accept all those seeds or do I have to import some xpubs manually? I am asking if I am the one who need to get my hands on the xpubs or will the wallet do that itself? I know that everything is derived from the seed, but I always thought you need some xpubs as well without the wallet doing the deriving part. 

xpub can be derived from the seed so you don't need to store the xpub separately if you have the seed.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
-snip-
Depends on the wallet software I guess, but most that I have used will quite happily accept five seed phrases. Even if you were to enter three seed phrases and two master public keys, the wallet would still need to derive the other three master public keys from the three seed phrases you entered in order to derive the addresses in the wallet, so no reason it couldn't derive all five master public keys from five seed phrases.
legendary
Activity: 2730
Merit: 7065
You need the threshold number of seed phrases or master private keys, which in a 3-of-5 wallet will be three. You then need at least a master public key from the remaining shares, which will be the other two. However, for these other two shares, instead of the master public key you can use a seed phrase or master private key instead, since the wallet can derive the necessary master public keys.
Now you have confused me. Grin
If I use a 3-of-5 multisig setup and I have all 5 seed phrases, will the wallet accept all those seeds or do I have to import some xpubs manually? I am asking if I am the one who need to get my hands on the xpubs or will the wallet do that itself? I know that everything is derived from the seed, but I always thought you need some xpubs as well without the wallet doing the deriving part. 
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
That I do not know how to do. Please drop a link about it to get some idea.
Every wallet which uses seed phrases uses that seed phrase to derive your master private and public keys, and indeed, all your private and public keys. The process involves a number of hash functions to turn your seed phrase in to a seed number and then that seed number in to private keys, and then elliptic curve multiplication to turn the private keys in to public keys. You don't need to know how to do this manually (and few people do) - your wallet software will do it all for you. You give it the seed phrase, it will work out the corresponding xpub.

A bit confuse now. In a 3 - of - 5 wallet don't I need at least three cosigner and all 5 xpubs to restore the wallet.
You need the threshold number of seed phrases or master private keys, which in a 3-of-5 wallet will be three. You then need at least a master public key from the remaining shares, which will be the other two. However, for these other two shares, instead of the master public key you can use a seed phrase or master private key instead, since the wallet can derive the necessary master public keys.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
You can derive xpub2 from seed2, which you do have.
That I do not know how to do. Please drop a link about it to get some idea.
Electrum can do this: New Wallet > Multi-signature wallet > "From 5 cosigners Require 3 signatures" > "I already have a seed" > scrub random route excite document walk decorate disorder raw float rubber typical > "Here is your master public key": Zpub6xh6PiSGQbm4rHdk4Uzevhz1zuz5Vk8vwpPxDQvNRXbCdkDfsdPwZkdRQjxA7WfnH9t8vXL8oCF kaN3SepiPbxB2WcubPkh6TWzSmqsjfaB.

Quote
In a 3 - of - 5 wallet don't I need at least three cosigner and all 5 xpubs to restore the wallet.
If you have 2 xpubs and 3 seeds, you have everything you need to get 5 xpubs. Or in my example zpubs (which means it's using a native Segwit address).
legendary
Activity: 2800
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Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o
You can derive xpub2 from seed2, which you do have.
That I do not know how to do. Please drop a link about it to get some idea.

Quote
You only need the 2 xpubs from the seeds you don't have.
A bit confuse now. In a 3 - of - 5 wallet don't I need at least three cosigner and all 5 xpubs to restore the wallet. I have used 2-of-3 multi sig but did not try with 3-of-5 however my understanding is the algorithm should be similar for restoring an x-of-y wallet.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
You can derive xpub2 from seed2, which you do have. You only need the 2 xpubs from the seeds you don't have.
legendary
Activity: 2800
Merit: 2736
Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o
I need all five people alive to get me the full set.
No, you don't. That would be a 5-of-5. The set up you've quoted is a 3-of-5. Pick any 3 of those 5 friends, and you will have at a minimum three seed phrases and master public keys from the other two seed phrases. This gives you all you need to fully restore the wallet and spend the coins from it.
My understanding is I need at least three seed and all 5 xpub keys on a 3 - of - 5.

Let me pick
Quote
Friend two: Seed2, xpub3, xpub4
Friend three: Seed3, xpub4, xpub5
Friend four: Seed4, xpub5, xpub1
Am I not missing xpub2? Without it I can not restore the wallet.

The combination I need to restore the wallet is

1. Seed2: xpub 1, xpub2, xpub3, xpub4 and xpub5
2. Seed3: xpub 1, xpub2, xpub3, xpub4 and xpub5
3. Seed4: xpub 1, xpub2, xpub3, xpub4 and xpub5

Since xpub2 is missing, I can not restore the wallet.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
I need all five people alive to get me the full set.
No, you don't. That would be a 5-of-5. The set up you've quoted is a 3-of-5. Pick any 3 of those 5 friends, and you will have at a minimum three seed phrases and master public keys from the other two seed phrases. This gives you all you need to fully restore the wallet and spend the coins from it.
legendary
Activity: 2800
Merit: 2736
Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o
My understanding is when you will create a 3-of-5 multi-sig, all five need to have all public master key to get the wallet created first. Or you are saying I create a 3-of-5 wallet and carefully give them the public key and public master key?
If you are going to create 5 separate wallets, then yes, each wallet needs to be given the other four master public keys in addition to its own seed phrase. There is no need to actually create 5 separate wallets though. I can generate 5 seed phrase, derive the 5 master public keys, use those 5 seed phrases (or master public keys if you want a watch only wallet) to create a single wallet for my own use, and then create the 5 back ups I have specified above and hand them out to 5 friends or relatives. The friends or relatives don't need to create a wallet; they just need to hold on to the back up you give them.
In a x - of - y wallet it's actually one wallet, isn't it? There are y set of seed and public master key. LoyceV's example is perfect to understand what I mean. We are considering that one wallet.

Anyway, the concept seems clear now. All I need is to create an x - of - y. In this case if it's 3 - of - 5 then I need 5 friends to hand out -
Friend one: Seed1, xpub2, xpub3
Friend two: Seed2, xpub3, xpub4
Friend three: Seed3, xpub4, xpub5
Friend four: Seed4, xpub5, xpub1
Friend five: Seed5, xpub1, xpub2

I see a problem here. I need all five people alive to get me the full set. If anything happen to anyone of them then I lose the wallet unless I find an alternative for each set. So I will need. Friend one (a, b), Friend two (a, b), Friend three (a, b), Friend four (a, b) and Friend five (a, b). It's involving too many people LOL. Or I messed up?
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
My understanding is when you will create a 3-of-5 multi-sig, all five need to have all public master key to get the wallet created first. Or you are saying I create a 3-of-5 wallet and carefully give them the public key and public master key?
If you are going to create 5 separate wallets, then yes, each wallet needs to be given the other four master public keys in addition to its own seed phrase. There is no need to actually create 5 separate wallets though. I can generate 5 seed phrase, derive the 5 master public keys, use those 5 seed phrases (or master public keys if you want a watch only wallet) to create a single wallet for my own use, and then create the 5 back ups I have specified above and hand them out to 5 friends or relatives. The friends or relatives don't need to create a wallet; they just need to hold on to the back up you give them.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Let's take 3-of-5 as an example since that's what we've been using so far.

Back up 1: Seed A, xpub B, xpub C
Back up 2: Seed B, xpub C, xpub D
Back up 3: Seed C, xpub D, xpub E
Back up 4: Seed D, xpub E, xpub A
Back up 5: Seed E, xpub A, xpub B

Any 3 of those 5 back ups gives you 3 seeds and the other 2 xpubs, allowing you to fully recover the wallet, while preventing any person from viewing the contents of the multi-sig wallet.
My understanding is when you will create a 3-of-5 multi-sig, all five need to have all public master key to get the wallet created first.
Let's just test it Smiley

I created the following Multi-Signature Wallets in Electrum ("from 5 cosigners require 3 signatures"):
A. uphold plug victory much grunt plug convince option dizzy edge observe drastic
master public key: Zpub6xxXDnNQaCWT8QAZy9omUXxqtxFvaZyqpfaH79dZYVFZidZAnvJR7ta44V5ajdy16nr917DcWkK 9yGST24TFCTNgyxnk5uJPMEpQRVoGABk
B. scrub random route excite document walk decorate disorder raw float rubber typical
master public key: Zpub6xh6PiSGQbm4rHdk4Uzevhz1zuz5Vk8vwpPxDQvNRXbCdkDfsdPwZkdRQjxA7WfnH9t8vXL8oCF kaN3SepiPbxB2WcubPkh6TWzSmqsjfaB
C. grape thumb verify sail raven river regret view net laptop clump grocery
master public key: Zpub6xv1ZrjZp8qdrcR2NfG7ZUnnw1Ce8GH39WZ8ZWyjq1yFAnguYfvMLKjrpruu1uCCWynvR9diff3 nGWx52TdNbCp43NHTJzaGQGVybo8PN8s
D. tourist brick accuse tooth spike erode remind patch biology cheese auto dinosaur
master public key: Zpub6yATJpzSCj8ps6xGJXRjHfFotNXUCTpqz2CSQcbC5V16FDJNYp8bVmUQsV4p5yiVUWvW6r1QxfU vCXz9LbpfYcSjux1fiSsVsJNgxLDNUKL
E. dinosaur kit uphold ring region attract ill blur goose swamp noodle million
master public key: Zpub6xofxsy4oCYwkfCF2Aw8XhXW9yRVPx5kBeYHtFWjRR78mmpYUH4e8kYaG6X1StgvnRidK8UBgb5 gYjRmmgmRi4i3JzeL2vRChuSjuCAK5V3

Using the seed A and master public keys B-E, Electrum produces this address first: bc1qlcaruvdjc4em502w0pxadwrhjtrh4sd5jf7td65nctr7yhm0gfgq97ynk9

Quote
Or you are saying I create a 3-of-5 wallet and carefully give them the public key and public master key?
From my little test, I think this is correct. Anyone holding 1 out of 5 cards can help you recover funds, but doesn't know the address(es). Some combinations of 2 out of 5 cards are enough to recreate the address.
legendary
Activity: 2800
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Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o
Part of my OPSEC is not sharing the exact details. It feels better that way.
Critical Venezuela mindset, Biden might go to you for oil and gas and reconsider sanctions from USA, I mean it's fine 😉

Let's take 3-of-5 as an example since that's what we've been using so far.

Back up 1: Seed A, xpub B, xpub C
Back up 2: Seed B, xpub C, xpub D
Back up 3: Seed C, xpub D, xpub E
Back up 4: Seed D, xpub E, xpub A
Back up 5: Seed E, xpub A, xpub B

Any 3 of those 5 back ups gives you 3 seeds and the other 2 xpubs, allowing you to fully recover the wallet, while preventing any person from viewing the contents of the multi-sig wallet.
My understanding is when you will create a 3-of-5 multi-sig, all five need to have all public master key to get the wallet created first. Or you are saying I create a 3-of-5 wallet and carefully give them the public key and public master key?
legendary
Activity: 3290
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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
I am interested to learn how you are handling your crypto.
Part of my OPSEC is not sharing the exact details. It feels better that way.

My wife knows about all my back ups.
It's one of the perks of being married Wink
newbie
Activity: 7
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I feel engraving on metal is better option
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
I am interested to learn how you are handling your crypto.
I have multiple back ups. My wife knows about all my back ups.

I really do not want other people except my wife to know how much bitcoin I have. With the x of y multi-sig wallet I can not hide my numbers LOL
Sure you can.

Let's take 3-of-5 as an example since that's what we've been using so far.

Back up 1: Seed A, xpub B, xpub C
Back up 2: Seed B, xpub C, xpub D
Back up 3: Seed C, xpub D, xpub E
Back up 4: Seed D, xpub E, xpub A
Back up 5: Seed E, xpub A, xpub B

Any 3 of those 5 back ups gives you 3 seeds and the other 2 xpubs, allowing you to fully recover the wallet, while preventing any person from viewing the contents of the multi-sig wallet.
legendary
Activity: 2800
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Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o
This sounds overly complicated.
overly complicated to me
I am interested to learn how you are handling your crypto.

Your suggested set up is better because you now have some redundancy in the system, but it still seems overly complicated to me and if it were me I would still prefer to use a 3-of-5 multi-sig set up.
I really do not want other people except my wife to know how much bitcoin I have. With the x of y multi-sig wallet I can not hide my numbers LOL
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
I second the suggestion to use multisig. People take it for granted here in bitcoin but some cryptos can't do it for example ethereum. multisig can increase transaction fees slightly but ... it's no big problem.
You can technically create a Tapscript where you use multiple keys to sign but only publish one using OP_CHECKSIGADD which is a new OP code added in Taproot soft-fork. That way the cost of multi sig is the same as any other single sig transaction.
The problem is that there still isn't any user friendly way of doing it since wallet developers are behind in their implementations.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469

Your suggested set up is better because you now have some redundancy in the system, but it still seems overly complicated to me and if it were me I would still prefer to use a 3-of-5 multi-sig set up.

I second the suggestion to use multisig. People take it for granted here in bitcoin but some cryptos can't do it for example ethereum. multisig can increase transaction fees slightly but ... it's no big problem.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
Need to study the Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme.
Don't waste your time. As has been explained above, it is a poor choice with significant flaws and should not be used.

Your suggested set up is better because you now have some redundancy in the system, but it still seems overly complicated to me and if it were me I would still prefer to use a 3-of-5 multi-sig set up.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Need to study the Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme. I was thinking it was good enough only to split the seed to two person but then I had to involve another person to answer the twisted words. The only thing I am lacking here is one of the person lives with me who is holding half of the seed. Means if in our house by any chance if we both become a victim of a sudden accident then the one who has other half of the seed will not find anything. He can not access the fund.
Have you considered Split mnemonic cards?
Example:
Code:
Card 1: under stomach XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX dust struggle ugly XXXX rocket XXXX hedgehog sponsor produce hello border limb appear mixture XXXX peanut live XXXX
Card 2: under XXXX peace humble weather flip XXXX struggle ugly dinosaur XXXX voyage hedgehog sponsor XXXX hello XXXX limb XXXX XXXX ladder XXXX live normal
Card 3: XXXX stomach peace humble weather flip dust XXXX XXXX dinosaur rocket voyage XXXX XXXX produce XXXX border XXXX appear mixture ladder peanut XXXX normal
This shouldn't be used with less than 24 words, and I've read more reasons not to use it, but it's a lot easier to understand than Shamir's Secrets. Either 2 out of 3 Cards are enough to restore the seed.

Quote
It is now involving 5 people.
This sounds overly complicated.
legendary
Activity: 2800
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Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o
From my understanding, this is a 3 out of 3 setup.  I see this as yet another problem.  If the connection between THREE persons is necessary in order to find the full combination, have you considered other possible issues they could encounter in the event of you losing your life?  It is not very rare that after the loss of a loved one relatives start arguing about what the deceased has left behind for the living ones.  Some are more greedy than others.  The trust you have in your relatives may not be equal to the trust these relatives have for each other.  What if you die together with one of these three persons that are NEEDED for the recovery of the seed?  What if the third person will request a premium for sharing their key part of the puzzle?  You have ensured the recovery if an accident happens to YOU, but you have not taken into account the possibility of an accident also happening to one or more of them.

As others have pointed out, I would keep the seed phrase backup as simple yet safe as possible without reinventing the wheel.  I would definitely not rely on humans for the recovery.  There is maybe more vulnerability to three humans having to connect for the combination than there is for an improperly stored paper wallet.  It is enough for one of the three to say 'no' and now everything goes wrong.

I remember Trezor offered a backup method that requires 'x out of y' backup sheets with a variable x or y based on your needs.  I can not remember the name of this method however, although I do think the name was something similar to 'Schnorr'.  Maybe someone with more knowledge can help me with the confirmation that this method is safer and less vulnerable than a 3 out of 3 sheets setup?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG
Need to study the Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme. I was thinking it was good enough only to split the seed to two person but then I had to involve another person to answer the twisted words. The only thing I am lacking here is one of the person lives with me who is holding half of the seed. Means if in our house by any chance if we both become a victim of a sudden accident then the one who has other half of the seed will not find anything. He can not access the fund.

Not yet going to apply but this is what I am thinking now.
First half of the seed goes with 1. The person who lives with me together (my wife) 2. One in-law I have.
2nd half of the seed is going to 1. The person who currently have the half (my sibling) 2. A cousin from my side
The person who is responsible to break the twist is close to me but not close or better say very much known to any of the person who have part of the seeds.

It is now involving 5 people. Two of the one half know each others but they have same words, the other two of the other half also know each others but again they have same words. The 5th one will only trigger if something happen to me or even something happen to me and my wife together.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
I remember Trezor offered a backup method that requires 'x out of y' backup sheets with a variable x or y based on your needs.  I can not remember the name of this method however, although I do think the name was something similar to 'Schnorr'.  Maybe someone with more knowledge can help me with the confirmation that this method is safer and less vulnerable than a 3 out of 3 sheets setup?
This is called Shamir Secret Sharing scheme and it is used by Trezor Model T, Keystone hardware wallets and I think Airgap wallet is using something similar.
I consider this to be poor man alternative to multisig setup, and this is not safer in any way compared to multisig, with one big flaw single point of failure.
You can see comparison for this two methods with more details in my topic Multisig VS Shamir Secret Sharing.


legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
I remember Trezor offered a backup method that requires 'x out of y' backup sheets with a variable x or y based on your needs.  I can not remember the name of this method however, although I do think the name was something similar to 'Schnorr'.  Maybe someone with more knowledge can help me with the confirmation that this method is safer and less vulnerable than a 3 out of 3 sheets setup?
Are you maybe thinking of Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme? It essentially splits your seed phrase in to encoded shares (which can also be expressed as a series of words if you desire), which you then share among your friends or relatives. As you say, you can choose any x-of-y set up, provided that y is equal or greater than x. So I could do a 3-of-5 for example, where any 3 shares out of the 5 I generate is sufficient to recover my seed phrase, and the knowledge of any number of shares less than 3 provides no information about my seed phrase.

It sounds great on paper, but in reality there are a number of significant security risks with it, such as flawed implementations, no universal standard, and a single point of failure. There is a good article about why you shouldn't use it here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Shamir_Secret_Snakeoil

In reality, if you want an x-of-y set up, then you should just use a multi-sig wallet.
hero member
Activity: 882
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Crypto Swap Exchange
The people I am surrounded with are not much bitcoin savvy not even tech savvy. I am not sure if I am underestimating them but it seems whatever you do, is not enough always. This additional layer is interesting. At this moment I have 3 people who needs to be contact each others to find the full combination. Among three, two are common relative who are very trustworthy to me. The third one will be able to connect with one of the relative to send the message only in case any accident happens to me.
From my understanding, this is a 3 out of 3 setup.  I see this as yet another problem.  If the connection between THREE persons is necessary in order to find the full combination, have you considered other possible issues they could encounter in the event of you losing your life?  It is not very rare that after the loss of a loved one relatives start arguing about what the deceased has left behind for the living ones.  Some are more greedy than others.  The trust you have in your relatives may not be equal to the trust these relatives have for each other.  What if you die together with one of these three persons that are NEEDED for the recovery of the seed?  What if the third person will request a premium for sharing their key part of the puzzle?  You have ensured the recovery if an accident happens to YOU, but you have not taken into account the possibility of an accident also happening to one or more of them.

As others have pointed out, I would keep the seed phrase backup as simple yet safe as possible without reinventing the wheel.  I would definitely not rely on humans for the recovery.  There is maybe more vulnerability to three humans having to connect for the combination than there is for an improperly stored paper wallet.  It is enough for one of the three to say 'no' and now everything goes wrong.

I remember Trezor offered a backup method that requires 'x out of y' backup sheets with a variable x or y based on your needs.  I can not remember the name of this method however, although I do think the name was something similar to 'Schnorr'.  Maybe someone with more knowledge can help me with the confirmation that this method is safer and less vulnerable than a 3 out of 3 sheets setup?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG
legendary
Activity: 2800
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Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o
I would suggest that if an attacker has been able to either find out enough to figure out the location of two separate back ups, or coerce you to revealing the location of these two back ups, then one or two changed words will not pose much of an issue for them, and they can either work out, brute force, or coerce the correct seed phrase. A far better option would be to use one or more additional passphrases (although again, make sure someone else knows what these are or how to recover them), which provides greater security as well as plausible deniability.
The people I am surrounded with are not much bitcoin savvy not even tech savvy. I am not sure if I am underestimating them but it seems whatever you do, is not enough always. This additional layer is interesting. At this moment I have 3 people who needs to be contact each others to find the full combination. Among three, two are common relative who are very trustworthy to me. The third one will be able to connect with one of the relative to send the message only in case any accident happens to me.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
Laser printing isnt fireproof. So i'm not sure what you mean. Huh
It sounds like he lasered the metal plates. I hope he has his own equipment for doing that and didn't hand his seed phrase over to some third party vendors to laser it for him.

This did not came to my mind. Good point.
I would suggest that if an attacker has been able to either find out enough to figure out the location of two separate back ups, or coerce you to revealing the location of these two back ups, then one or two changed words will not pose much of an issue for them, and they can either work out, brute force, or coerce the correct seed phrase. A far better option would be to use one or more additional passphrases (although again, make sure someone else knows what these are or how to recover them), which provides greater security as well as plausible deniability.
legendary
Activity: 2800
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Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o
Check out the bolded parts. Words that YOU can remember and words that YOU know. With time, your memory can start playing tricks with you. Those who suffer from Alzheimer's can't recognize their children or remember where the bathroom is in their home, let alone remember what antonyms or synonyms they used and where. It might seem like a good idea now, but who knows that the future holds.

Does your family know the words YOU remembered and the antonyms/synonyms YOU used? What if you die or suffer a serious head injury? What if war comes to your doorstep overnight as it did to Ukraine?
Fuck you man! You are scaring me to death.

This did not came to my mind. Good point. The family only knows the two separate set that needs to bring together but they do not know about those tweaks on few words. I may need to plan to let someone know about it.

Take the F word easy man. No homo 😘
sr. member
Activity: 1190
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I bought a metal plate. Changed some words the way I can remember them. They are some synonym or antonym which I know.


famous last words of someone that is trying to be "clever". it will bite them in the rear end more often than not  Grin
legendary
Activity: 2730
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I bought a metal plate. Changed some words the way I can remember them. They are some synonym or antonym which I know.
Check out the bolded parts. Words that YOU can remember and words that YOU know. With time, your memory can start playing tricks with you. Those who suffer from Alzheimer's can't recognize their children or remember where the bathroom is in their home, let alone remember what antonyms or synonyms they used and where. It might seem like a good idea now, but who knows that the future holds.

Does your family know the words YOU remembered and the antonyms/synonyms YOU used? What if you die or suffer a serious head injury? What if war comes to your doorstep overnight as it did to Ukraine?
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469
Does not matter. Laminate.
Or do some DIY.
I bought a metal plate. Changed some words the way I can remember them. They are some synonym or antonym which I know. Did not make it complicated obviously. Then I lesser printed it and it's fire proof. There are two copies and only these two copies combined will get the full seed.

I feel fairly safe LOL

Laser printing isnt fireproof. So i'm not sure what you mean. Huh
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
The problem here is that you want to make your seed phrase resistant to loss, but also resistant to theft.

I store mostly my seed in a safe place because I wrote it down on a piece of paper, printed in a bond paper, and make an online copy to make sure I have different copies in case I miss out or forgot my seed
So this set up with multiple back ups in different medium is very resistant to loss, but not very resistant to theft. Storing your seed phrase online is usually a terrible idea and huge security risk. We have seen seed phrases been stolen from email accounts, cloud storage, websites, file servers, you name it. If it is online, it is at risk. I hope that you have strongly encrypted whatever you are storing online, but it would be far better to not do this at all.

I bought a metal plate. Changed some words the way I can remember them. They are some synonym or antonym which I know. Did not make it complicated obviously. Then I lesser printed it and it's fire proof. There are two copies and only these two copies combined will get the full seed.
And this suffers from the opposite problem. From what you've written, it sounds like you have two metal plates but with half the seed phrase on each. There is no redundancy in this set up. You have two back ups, and you need them both to recover your coins. The loss of a single one of your back ups results in loss of your coins. Forgetting what words you have changed could result in loss of your coins. It is resistant to theft, but it is not very resistant to loss.
legendary
Activity: 2800
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Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o
Does not matter. Laminate.
Or do some DIY.
I bought a metal plate. Changed some words the way I can remember them. They are some synonym or antonym which I know. Did not make it complicated obviously. Then I lesser printed it and it's fire proof. There are two copies and only these two copies combined will get the full seed.

I feel fairly safe LOL
legendary
Activity: 1708
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Top Crypto Casino
I store mostly my seed in a safe place because I wrote it down on a piece of paper, printed in a bond paper, and make an online copy to make sure I have different copies in case I miss out or forgot my seed of course no one memorizes their seed also it's ideal if you bought a hardware wallet to you have another layer of security that each transaction must need to require with the HW verification.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
Writing down a seed still requires some kind of computer-like device to generate the seed. If the seed was generated on a HW wallet, then perhaps storing a seed on a USB drive would require an additional computer. However, if you remove that assumption, using a USB drive requires no additional security measures above using a paper backup.
The only time you need no additional equipment to create an encrypted USB is if you are using a software wallet on a computer, and even then there is additional risk in taking a seed phrase out of a password protected wallet file and saving it in plain text in a text file. These risks are mitigated if you are using a properly and permanently airgapped system, but we both know that very few people do that and do it properly. If you are using a mobile wallet or a hardware wallet, then inputting your seed to a computer to create an encrypted USB back up is significantly riskier than writing down your seed phrase on paper.

If you compare the potential security risks associated with creating (and using) a paper wallet, and a wallet stored on an encrypted hard drive or USB drive, using a paper wallet would have all the security vulnerabilities associated with a seed stored on an encrypted hard drive or USB drive, and would also have additional security vulnerabilities.
I am comparing a properly created paper wallet (airgapped device, dumb printer, etc.) and a hot software wallet. Properly used then the paper wallet is exponentially more secure, but we both know that many people do not use them properly.

I think it is disingenuous to say "Well, if you do it properly then printing your seed phrase is fine", when we know that the vast majority of people will not or can not "do it properly". Far harder to make a critical error when writing down your seed phrase than when printing it out.

The variable that increases the benefit in your comparison is the distance between backups, not using a single medium of storage.
My point exactly. The important point of your 3-2-1 rule is at least 1 back up stored off-site (although I would argue for more than this if you can safely do so).
copper member
Activity: 1666
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Amazon Prime Member #7
If you are comparing storing a backup using medium A and medium B, in order to compare the two mediums, you need to assume the same security measures are taken, unless doing so would not be possible.
If you are comparing which storage medium is more secure once they have been created, then sure, you assume they are both created securely. But in reality, that is not the case. Almost anyone can write down a seed phrase securely - just make sure you do it with nobody else around and no cameras or webcams pointed at what you are doing. Very few people on the other hand can properly create an encrypted USB drive back up from a properly airgapped computer, leaving no traces of what they have done and leaking no information in the process. This is an important point to consider.
Writing down a seed still requires some kind of computer-like device to generate the seed. If the seed was generated on a HW wallet, then perhaps storing a seed on a USB drive would require an additional computer. However, if you remove that assumption, using a USB drive requires no additional security measures above using a paper backup.

Just as if we compare a properly created paper wallet to a properly created software wallet, then the paper wallet is exponentially more secure. However, we know from experience that many people who create paper wallets or import them later do insecurely because they far harder to create and use than a simple software wallet.
This is not true. I am assuming you are referring to a wallet that is not a hardware wallet.

If you compare the potential security risks associated with creating (and using) a paper wallet, and a wallet stored on an encrypted hard drive or USB drive, using a paper wallet would have all the security vulnerabilities associated with a seed stored on an encrypted hard drive or USB drive, and would also have additional security vulnerabilities.
Every medium of storage has the potential for data loss under certain circumstances, and the only way to mitigate this risk is to use multiple storage mediums.
This is also mitigated by using multiple storage locations, not just mediums. If the circumstance is, for example, all my paper wallets are vulnerable to fire or water damage (which is no different to a USB drive), then I am far safer storing two paper copies in two physical locations in different states than I am storing a paper and a USB copy a few blocks from each other.
I will advise people to follow the 3-2-1 rule:
3 backups using
2 mediums of storage, with at least
1 backup stored off-site

When comparing your two choices, you are changing two variables, the number of mediums of storage and the distance each backup is located from the other. The variable that increases the benefit in your comparison is the distance between backups, not using a single medium of storage.
legendary
Activity: 2268
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Not only unnecessary; I personally find it worse. Metal detectors can detect those.
I can only imagine this being a concern if you are planning to bury your seed phrase outside somewhere. If you store it inside your house or other building, inside a safe, in a safe deposit box, etc., then metal detectors become useless due to the presence of copious amounts of metal in the close vicinity. Stainless steel also happens to be one of the hardest metals to accurately detect using a metal detector since it displays very low levels of magnetic permeability.
legendary
Activity: 1512
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Farewell, Leo
Regarding of what's better: Ink can take several decades to start fading. Pencilled material can last over a century. Even if you didn't know this, just stick with both; write your seed phrase twice, backwards and forwards. The quality of the paper should be your main concern.

As for this:
typing it on my notepad app on my computer and print it ?
I think we've over-analyzed it. It's easier and safer to avoid using a printer as it introduces additional risk for no reason.

But again, as I discussed above regarding steel back ups, I find this unnecessary.
Not only unnecessary; I personally find it worse. Metal detectors can detect those.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
If you are comparing storing a backup using medium A and medium B, in order to compare the two mediums, you need to assume the same security measures are taken, unless doing so would not be possible.
If you are comparing which storage medium is more secure once they have been created, then sure, you assume they are both created securely. But in reality, that is not the case. Almost anyone can write down a seed phrase securely - just make sure you do it with nobody else around and no cameras or webcams pointed at what you are doing. Very few people on the other hand can properly create an encrypted USB drive back up from a properly airgapped computer, leaving no traces of what they have done and leaking no information in the process. This is an important point to consider.

Just as if we compare a properly created paper wallet to a properly created software wallet, then the paper wallet is exponentially more secure. However, we know from experience that many people who create paper wallets or import them later do insecurely because they far harder to create and use than a simple software wallet.

Every medium of storage has the potential for data loss under certain circumstances, and the only way to mitigate this risk is to use multiple storage mediums.
This is also mitigated by using multiple storage locations, not just mediums. If the circumstance is, for example, all my paper wallets are vulnerable to fire or water damage (which is no different to a USB drive), then I am far safer storing two paper copies in two physical locations in different states than I am storing a paper and a USB copy a few blocks from each other.
copper member
Activity: 1666
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Amazon Prime Member #7
I would also bring up that it is a best practice to store backups of your seed phrase in multiple mediums of storage. So if you do decide to store one copy that is written on paper, you should store another copy of your seed in some medium of storage, such as an encrypted USB stick or encrypted HDD. This way if your ink does fade, you will hopefully still have access to your other backups.
I understand the reasoning behind this, and if that makes you feel safer and/or fits with your threat model, then by all means go ahead. But again, as I discussed above regarding steel back ups, I find this unnecessary.

Lets say that I have three copies of a seed phrase, all hand written on paper (using good quality ink and good quality paper), stored in three separate physical locations. I know that under the reasonable conditions of temperature, humidity, etc., that the copy stored on site in my house will experience, I'm going to get decades out of it before the ink fades to any significant degree. In terms of my offsite back ups, I'm still checking on them at least every few months so I know if they have been compromised or damaged in any way. Even assuming these offsite backups are exposed to such environmental extremes that the ink fades in only a year, I'll find out before they become unreadable and will be able to replace then as needed.

If you have created your seed phrase on an airgapped device then there is little additional risk to creating a back up of your seed phrase on an encrypted USB drive. But very few people do this. If you have, on the other hand, created your seed phrase on a hardware wallet, which thousands if not millions more people do, then creating an encrypted USB drive back up poses a significant additional risk since most people do not have a properly airgapped device with which to do so.
You make good points, but I think your points are outside of the scope of the OP's question/problem. If you are comparing storing a backup using medium A and medium B, in order to compare the two mediums, you need to assume the same security measures are taken, unless doing so would not be possible.

You do not necessarily need to use a USB stick for one of your backups, but the medium of storage for at least one of your backups should be different than your other backups. Every medium of storage has the potential for data loss under certain circumstances, and the only way to mitigate this risk is to use multiple storage mediums.

I would also point out that not all seeds are associated with cold storage. It is generally a good practice to use a seed for your hot wallet, and your hot wallet should also be backed up, including using multiple storage mediums.


I would also bring up that it is a best practice to store backups of your seed phrase in multiple mediums of storage. So if you do decide to store one copy that is written on paper, you should store another copy of your seed in some medium of storage, such as an encrypted USB stick or encrypted HDD. This way if your ink does fade, you will hopefully still have access to your other backups. 
I have several USB devices that suddenly died on me, so I am not considering them a viable option for any important backup.
They can also create errors with operating system if they are encrypted resulting in easy disc format and permanent data destruction.
I wish there was some physical switch that disables writing like it was with old magnetic tapes long time ago.
Yes, there is x problem with y medium of storage. That is why you use multiple mediums of storage so you can reduce the overall risk of losing your seed.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
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I prefer hand and pencil over toner.

apparently pencil lasts longer than ink on paper. but nobody uses it.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
I'm not sure what you are proposing using this invisible ink for, but it tends to fade far more quickly than regular ink so would be a poor choice for backing up your seed phrase.
I don't really propose using it for anything more than maybe sending some temporary love messages, and it was more of a joke for governments using invisible yellow dots for tracking printers. Wink

You do get USB drives with a physical write protection hardware switch. There are also WORM (write-once read-many) SD cards, which do exactly what they sound like.
They probably exist but I never saw one of this devices in my life and I never used it.
Most USB stick drives on the market don't have such option.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
I like those invisible ink pencils/pens that expose writing under specific light, and this would be my counter-attack to printer yellow dots  Cheesy
I'm not sure what you are proposing using this invisible ink for, but it tends to fade far more quickly than regular ink so would be a poor choice for backing up your seed phrase.

I wish there was some physical switch that disables writing like it was with old magnetic tapes long time ago.
You do get USB drives with a physical write protection hardware switch. There are also WORM (write-once read-many) SD cards, which do exactly what they sound like.

hi, try to memorise it.
You can try to memorize it if you want, but only if you also have robust hand written back ups to fall back on. If you only try to memorize your seed phrase, you will almost certainly forget it at some point and lose access to your coins.
newbie
Activity: 22
Merit: 7
Hello,

I would like to write down my seed phrase but I am hesitating between writing it on a sheet with a pen or typing it on my notepad app on my computer and print it ?
Which one will last longer ?

Thanks !

hi, you may try to memorise it and write it on a paper(offline). Never make it online!
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
Just another minor point to add to the list of "Why over complicate things with a printer?". Write your seed phrase down, laminate the paper if you so choose, job done.
Exactly, I don't see any real reason for using printers for this purpose, unless all pencils in the world are suddenly gone forever... but I guess you could still write with fingers.
I like those invisible ink pencils/pens that expose writing under specific light, and this would be my counter-attack to printer yellow dots  Cheesy

If you are interested in that subject, maybe you should check that program: https://github.com/dfd-tud/deda
Developed by scientists from Dresden, allows you to detect and modify/remove yellow dots. Or just read a data encoded.
I didn't know about this, but it looks like this project is supperted by Bendestag aka German government.

I would also bring up that it is a best practice to store backups of your seed phrase in multiple mediums of storage. So if you do decide to store one copy that is written on paper, you should store another copy of your seed in some medium of storage, such as an encrypted USB stick or encrypted HDD. This way if your ink does fade, you will hopefully still have access to your other backups. 
I have several USB devices that suddenly died on me, so I am not considering them a viable option for any important backup.
They can also create errors with operating system if they are encrypted resulting in easy disc format and permanent data destruction.
I wish there was some physical switch that disables writing like it was with old magnetic tapes long time ago.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
I would also bring up that it is a best practice to store backups of your seed phrase in multiple mediums of storage. So if you do decide to store one copy that is written on paper, you should store another copy of your seed in some medium of storage, such as an encrypted USB stick or encrypted HDD. This way if your ink does fade, you will hopefully still have access to your other backups.
I understand the reasoning behind this, and if that makes you feel safer and/or fits with your threat model, then by all means go ahead. But again, as I discussed above regarding steel back ups, I find this unnecessary.

Lets say that I have three copies of a seed phrase, all hand written on paper (using good quality ink and good quality paper), stored in three separate physical locations. I know that under the reasonable conditions of temperature, humidity, etc., that the copy stored on site in my house will experience, I'm going to get decades out of it before the ink fades to any significant degree. In terms of my offsite back ups, I'm still checking on them at least every few months so I know if they have been compromised or damaged in any way. Even assuming these offsite backups are exposed to such environmental extremes that the ink fades in only a year, I'll find out before they become unreadable and will be able to replace then as needed.

If you have created your seed phrase on an airgapped device then there is little additional risk to creating a back up of your seed phrase on an encrypted USB drive. But very few people do this. If you have, on the other hand, created your seed phrase on a hardware wallet, which thousands if not millions more people do, then creating an encrypted USB drive back up poses a significant additional risk since most people do not have a properly airgapped device with which to do so.
legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1965
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
I will use a permanent marker on a piece of paper, where the ink can be absorbed by the paper. (Not on a piece of plastic for instance, where it will only be on the surface) ...after that, I will laminate it to protect it from the elements. (Do not place this in direct sunlight, because it will fade over time)

I will NOT print it with anything, because most printers have some kind of buffer that stores the information and this buffer can be accessed by hackers. (Photocopier machines even have hard drives that can be accessible to these hackers) ....or the buffer can be on your local PC hard drive, after it has been dumped from the Printer buffer.  Wink

Do not place these devices on the Internet, when you do this.... I bought a cheap second hand computer and printer that will never see the Internet again ....and I use them to print "Paper wallets" for cold storage.  Wink
copper member
Activity: 1666
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Amazon Prime Member #7
I'm going to disagree with everyone above saying it doesn't really matter and instead say you should absolutely write your seed phrase by hand and not use a printer.*
Agreed. Printing a private key (or a seed phrase) increases the scope of possible ways that your key could be stolen.


I would also bring up that it is a best practice to store backups of your seed phrase in multiple mediums of storage. So if you do decide to store one copy that is written on paper, you should store another copy of your seed in some medium of storage, such as an encrypted USB stick or encrypted HDD. This way if your ink does fade, you will hopefully still have access to your other backups. 
legendary
Activity: 952
Merit: 1385
Don't buy a printer on Bitcointak, buy it on Craigslist. That makes a targeted attack much less likely.
You should know that most printers have coded tracking dots that prints invisible Machine Identification Codes with time, date and printer serial number on paper, with who knows what else to track what you print.

If you are interested in that subject, maybe you should check that program: https://github.com/dfd-tud/deda
Developed by scientists from Dresden, allows you to detect and modify/remove yellow dots. Or just read a data encoded.

By the way, do you know story of Reality Winner? Yep, dots.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
Printed seed phrases aren't meant to be shared, and even if someone would get their hands on it, they wouldn't be interested to know which printer you used. They would just take your money.
I suppose a very theoretical risk would be an attacker finding your seed phrase and then tracking you down via this tracking information to extort you for other seed phrases, other wallets, passphrases, etc.

Just another minor point to add to the list of "Why over complicate things with a printer?". Write your seed phrase down, laminate the paper if you so choose, job done.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
I wouldn't worry about yellow dots on an old black and white laser printer, but more imporantly: the tracking is meant to track a printout to a certain printer. Printed seed phrases aren't meant to be shared, and even if someone would get their hands on it, they wouldn't be interested to know which printer you used. They would just take your money.
I don't worry about it because I don't use printed seed words, and i don't want invisible yellow dots anywhere on my forensically traceable papers.
Using passphrase with seed words would make job harder for anyone who wants to steal your coins, but they could identify computer and printer you used, with exact details about time, date and maybe IP address.
However, there are some printer models that apparently don't display tracking dots:
I prefer toner over ink.
I prefer hand and pencil over toner.
legendary
Activity: 3290
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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
You should know that most printers have coded tracking dots that prints invisible Machine Identification Codes with time, date and printer serial number on paper, with who knows what else to track what you print.
I always assumed only high-resolution "modern" printers do that, but it turns out the technology was developed in the mid-1980s. I wouldn't worry about yellow dots on an old black and white laser printer, but more imporantly: the tracking is meant to track a printout to a certain printer. Printed seed phrases aren't meant to be shared, and even if someone would get their hands on it, they wouldn't be interested to know which printer you used. They would just take your money.

Quote
Long time I ago I remember printing some cd covers on my old printer and they all faded a lot, this could be because of cheap ink paint, but you get my point.
I prefer toner over ink.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
Don't buy a printer on Bitcointak, buy it on Craigslist. That makes a targeted attack much less likely.
You should know that most printers have coded tracking dots that prints invisible Machine Identification Codes with time, date and printer serial number on paper, with who knows what else to track what you print.
I would never want to use something like that for printing bitcoin seed phrase, and I don't agree with you that printer ink will last for centuries.
Long time I ago I remember printing some cd covers on my old printer and they all faded a lot, this could be because of cheap ink paint, but you get my point.

legendary
Activity: 3290
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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Incredible idea! To add a GSM module into old printer, change firmware and start selling it bitcoin forums. Then transmit to a given server the content of suspected prints.
Don't buy a printer on Bitcointak, buy it on Craigslist. That makes a targeted attack much less likely.

Quote
By the way, maybe saving seed as a QRcode could be a partial solution for missing parts?
Why not both? I like how a former-trusted-now-scamming paper wallet site designed the paper: print the private key twice, one of them upside down, with the QR-code in between. That means you can still recover the key even if you lose a substantial part of the paper.
legendary
Activity: 952
Merit: 1385
Incredible idea! To add a GSM module into old printer, change firmware and start selling it bitcoin forums. Then transmit to a given server the content of suspected prints.
Fantastic, let’s do it. How we would call our start-up?

By the way, maybe saving seed as a QRcode could be a partial solution for missing parts?
legendary
Activity: 3290
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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Purchasing an old printer from someone else is a bad, bad idea as you have no idea who and how someone may have messed with it.
Are you afraid someone might have added hidden spying technology just in case someone will print a secret on his old printer? I wouldn't worry about an old HP LaserJet (except for it's weight and size). And because they're so old and mainstream, I expect it to work without problems from most Linux LIVE DVDs.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
But besides metal detection, is there any other situation or reason paper may be a better choice than stainless steel?
I've discussed this before, but my main argument against stainless steel over paper is that I find it unnecessary.

When you compare a single stainless steel back up to a single paper back up, then absolutely stainless steel is a better choice. It will be more resistant to fire, water, corrosion, crush, explosions, etc. However, one back is no back up at all. You should have, at a minimum, your seed phrase backed up in two separate but secure geographical locations. Given this scenario, I find stainless steel unnecessary. What are the chances that my airgapped laptop and two separate paper back ups will all be destroyed simultaneously?

If you want to use steel then by all means go ahead, but don't let perfect be the enemy of good and don't delay backing up your seed phrase properly while you get all the necessary equipment to make a steel back up. And don't think that a single steel back up is better than redundancy with multiple paper back ups.

And if you do go for a metal back up, then please choose one which involves stamping words on to a metal plate, and not the multiple ones on the market which involve slotting tiles in to a holder, which all perform incredibly poorly on stress testing.
hero member
Activity: 882
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Crypto Swap Exchange
Finding an old printer is hard unless you have one at home that you definitely know is safe.  Finding a new printer is a bad idea since new technology means more points of failure for situations like yours.. I mean it is almost impossible to buy a device nowadays that has no wireless technology in it.  Purchasing an old printer from someone else is a bad, bad idea as you have no idea who and how someone may have messed with it.  So printers are a big no for me.

If you don't want to go the metal way as others have posted, and use paper make sure it's good paper: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5296179
Why would I choose another material over stainless steel?  I get that chances are you will not get past airport security check without them finding and investigating your metal seed phrase since it is metal unless you are lucky.  But besides metal detection, is there any other situation or reason paper may be a better choice than stainless steel?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG
legendary
Activity: 1624
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Makes me wonder how easy it would be to create a bootable Linux disto with nothing but printer drivers so to speak.
It depends on the printer: in my experience, a new printer is terrible to install offline, while many old laserjets work out of the box.
I don't really mind having network drivers, just unplug the cable and disable wifi. If that's not enough: remove the physical card.

And then I realized one day there's an easier solution to this:



As you can see, I always unplug the cables before printing.  Grin
legendary
Activity: 3290
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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Makes me wonder how easy it would be to create a bootable Linux disto with nothing but printer drivers so to speak.
It depends on the printer: in my experience, a new printer is terrible to install offline, while many old laserjets work out of the box.
I don't really mind having network drivers, just unplug the cable and disable wifi. If that's not enough: remove the physical card.
legendary
Activity: 3500
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Meaning if the computer is air gap then this risk doesn't exist
Absolutely. But very few people actually use properly airgapped computers, and if you have the technical knowledge required to properly airgap a device, then you are almost certainly already aware of the risks of printing a seed phrase over hand writing one and how to mitigate against those risks too.

Makes me wonder how easy it would be to create a bootable Linux disto with nothing but printer drivers so to speak.
No networking but CUPS installed as @ETFbitcoin mentioned AND although driverless printing kind of works, on the rest of the DVD / USB you would have nothing but all the printer drivers you could find. That and a copy of something to generate a seed phrase.

-Dave
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
Meaning if the computer is air gap then this risk doesn't exist
Absolutely. But very few people actually use properly airgapped computers, and if you have the technical knowledge required to properly airgap a device, then you are almost certainly already aware of the risks of printing a seed phrase over hand writing one and how to mitigate against those risks too.

if it is not then storing it in a notepad adds only a small risk on top of already very risky setup.
Also agree, but the risk here is that OP is not generating his seed phrase on his computer at all, but is generating it on a hardware wallet or even a mobile wallet, and then typing it in plain text in to his non-airgapped computer, in which case the additional risk is significant.
legendary
Activity: 2912
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Blackjack.fun
There is one thing I really don't get.
If we're talking about durability only, not risks of having the private key exposed while printing or risking writing the wrong letter when you do it yourself, why not do both? I mean, it's paper, its costs are ridiculously low, it doesn't weigh a ton, and two pieces of paper 2x10 cm are just as easy to hide as one unless you want to print each letter on an A1 sheet.
So why not do both, put them side by side, and hope at least one will last a century?

In my experience:
  • Paper, ink and toner will probably last for centuries. Just keep them dry! And keeping another backup in another place doesn't hurt of course.

Depends a lot on both the printer and the quality of the paper.
While I was graduating university there was an influx of shitty paper that looked great as it was white and almost shined in the light, even cheating papers with small characters printed with the cheapest inkjet were quite easy to read when hiding in your sleeve (not that I did ever that), but none, absolutely none of all my work during those years, although kept in a bookshelf, has more than let's say 60% of the original print, some of the pages have even miraculously glued themselves to each other.
If you use good stuff yeah, it will last a lot, hopefully, but I would still trust a stainless steel plate over the paper, a pen might be mightier than a sword but a steel plate beats the crap out of any sheet of paper.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
You can quite easily check this for yourself: dig up some old school papers, the earlier the better. Then get some old books you have. I expect all of them to still be totally fine.
It depends on the quality of the paper and the ink, almost always it is good and will last a very long time as you said but I've seen cases with low quality paper and low quality ink (pens) that faded away after a year or two.

You say you would type it in a notepad app and then print it. By doing so, there are multiple ways your seed phrase could be stolen. Keyloggers could steal it, or screen capture malware could steal it. Even if you delete the notepad file after you are done,
Technically you should do this on the same computer that the seed phrase was created on. Meaning if the computer is air gap then this risk doesn't exist, if it is not then storing it in a notepad adds only a small risk on top of already very risky setup.
P.S. You don't have to save the notepad on disk to print it.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
I'm going to disagree with everyone above saying it doesn't really matter and instead say you should absolutely write your seed phrase by hand and not use a printer.*

You say you would type it in a notepad app and then print it. By doing so, there are multiple ways your seed phrase could be stolen. Keyloggers could steal it, or screen capture malware could steal it. Even if you delete the notepad file after you are done, unless you actually write over those sectors on your hard drive then the data isn't erased, and is vulnerable to being stolen by malware or anyone with physical access to your computer. Almost all modern printers keep recently printed documents in their memory, and again, your seed phrase could be extracted this way.

mocacinno has outlined how difficult it is to be absolutely sure something you print remains completely secure. It isn't easy. What is easy, though, is bypassing all of that and just writing it down by hand. Yeah, some people might call me paranoid, but I've never lost as much as a single satoshi, and why take the risk for literally no benefit?

*Unless you really know what you are doing, but if you are asking this question, then you probably don't (no offense intended).
legendary
Activity: 1512
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Farewell, Leo
And keeping another backup in another place doesn't hurt of course.
That's a must, in my opinion. If, knock on wood, something happens to the piece of paper, you should have a back up, which should also be backed up later. Always keep the seed phrase in two different places.

If we're talking about significant amounts, make sure that even if your house is set on fire, you won't lose one of those pieces.

Recently I was contacted by someone who lost part of his WIF because of gun oil in safe lock... So, you never know.
Weren't we both in a thread where one had their paper wallet eaten by a bug?  Tongue
legendary
Activity: 3500
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If you don't want to go the metal way as others have posted, and use paper make sure it's good paper: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5296179
And obviously make sure it's in a safe place. As the saying goes, don't re-invent the wheel. Doing things that you think will make it more secure, like rearranging words or splitting them in odd ways can loose all your BTC if 10 years from now you forgot what you did and now have your restore words that you don't remember how to restore.

-Dave
legendary
Activity: 3290
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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Which one will last longer ?
You can quite easily check this for yourself: dig up some old school papers, the earlier the better. Then get some old books you have. I expect all of them to still be totally fine.

In my experience:
  • Paper, ink and toner will probably last for centuries. Just keep them dry! And keeping another backup in another place doesn't hurt of course.
  • CDRs, electronics and thermal printing on the other hand expire. I expect all of it to be useless within a few years up to a few decades.
legendary
Activity: 952
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Recently I was contacted by someone who lost part of his WIF because of gun oil in safe lock... So, you never know.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
I would like to write down my seed phrase but I am hesitating between writing it on a sheet with a pen or typing it on my notepad app on my computer and print it ?
Which one will last longer ?
Writing seed words on piece of paper is always a better option than keeping digital copy, but if you really want something that will last for a long time use metal plates.
I don't trust printer ink is going to be good enough because it can use cheap ink color and that can fade fairly quickly like those receipt bills.
Metal plates should be from stainless steel or you can make cheap DIY version of backup using washers you can buy in your local store, here is one example with instructions for Securing a Bitcoin seed phrase in stainless-steel washers.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
It was covered by @mocacinno but I want to point out that one of the main reasons why encoding algorithms such as BIP39 exist where they take a bunch of bits in computer language and turn them into human readable words, is to help users write it down easily without needing a printer. I'd go with pen and paper (or replacement medium like metal sheet).
Just make sure to double check what you've written and in the end you should try recovering your wallet using what you wrote down (maybe a couple of days later) to see if you did it right.
legendary
Activity: 3584
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https://merel.mobi => buy facemasks with BTC/LTC
--snip-- If you have printer at home, there is nothing bad about that --snip--

unless you are paranoid... Personally, i will not let my hardware wallet's seed phrase touch any electronic device ever.
Offcourse there are ways of printing a seed *correctly* (in the opsec sense), but that would require you to use an offline machine, boot it using a live distro, type the seed in a file which you save on an usb stick, reboot the pc you used to write the seed down (maybe even use a tool to "test" the machine's memory).

Then you'd have to put your printer in offline mode, print from the usb stick, power cycle the printer and fill it's memory with big printjobs (or completely destroy the printer by fire).

Then you'd have to burn the usb stick, or at least overwrite it with random data several times... Also from an offline pc.

Yup... paranoid people exist Wink And if you're serious about keeping loads of BTC @home, paranoia is good... Better to be paranoid than to be robbed...
legendary
Activity: 3668
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Looking for campaign manager? Contact icopress!
I would like to write down my seed phrase but I am hesitating between writing it on a sheet with a pen or typing it on my notepad app on my computer and print it ?
Which one will last longer ?

As said, it depends on too many variables. I've seen erasable pen, which also fade in time. The receipts are printed and do fade (I think it's thermal and not the best example, but still).
But a proper pen (usually ball pen, I'd guess) or marker would do. A proper printer would also do, just keep in mind that adding printer into equation is usually considered lowering the security.
Also as said, if you laminate it'll be better.

I'll add that you should also store your seed (in a way or another) in multiple (geographically different) places.

---
Edit: If the funds worth the hassle, you may also consider CryptoSteel or this solution: Securing a Bitcoin seed phrase in stainless-steel washers
legendary
Activity: 1512
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Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Hope it will not be known to the person that will print it for you or saved on your device? If you have printer at home, there is nothing bad about that, also if you can laminate it. But going outside to do that is not advisable, your seed phrase must remain seen and known only by you, anyone else that sees it already knows it. Also delete it permanently on the device you saved it after printing.

The best simple option in this regard is for you to just write it down on a piece of paper, it is not bad either. Have like two replica and keep them individually in different locations.

But you may decide to go for safer options like:

Store your bitcoin seed / private key safely (Water, Fire, Shock-proof)

Edit:
Read mocacinno post below to get the printing accurately. I will also better stick to writing it down with pen which is offline.
legendary
Activity: 952
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Does not matter. Laminate.
legendary
Activity: 3584
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https://merel.mobi => buy facemasks with BTC/LTC
Hello,

I would like to write down my seed phrase but I am hesitating between writing it on a sheet with a pen or typing it on my notepad app on my computer and print it ?
Which one will last longer ?

Thanks !

I don't think there's a simple answer to your question... To many variables...
Inktjet/laser?
Original toner/copy?
Fountain pen/biro?
cheap recycled paper/high quality paper?
Stored in sunlight/Stored in a banksafe?
Laminated/unlaminated?

I think the more important consideration would be: why enter your seed on a potentially vulnerable device? As soon as you enter your seed on a notepad, there's a slim chance it gets exposed (especially if you save it afterwards), it gets sent over your network and it's stored in the printer's memory.
The risk is small, but pen and paper are 100% offline, so that risk is smaller....  You're printing it anyways, so the attack vector of an evil maid reading the piece of paper should be equal between printed and written seeds.

Now, penmanship comes into play.... I asked my wife to write down my seed... If i'd have written it myself, i probably would have been better off printing it in the first place, since i cannot read my own handwriting mere minutes after finishing writing something down Smiley
jr. member
Activity: 48
Merit: 27
Hello,

I would like to write down my seed phrase but I am hesitating between writing it on a sheet with a pen or typing it on my notepad app on my computer and print it ?
Which one will last longer ?

Thanks !
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