Topic: yes i know it's provably fair but ... (Read 5140 times)

but thats the thing, it is provable so therefore you can notice things like skipped nonces

Its not a concept used on any of the sites, but once you see a site cheat, like incorrect rolls or skipping nonces, then I suppose you would call it provably unfair .

Is there such a thing as "provably unfair"?

Thanks your advice and the math explanation, i know this could happen and has its chances, what i wonder if there is some factor that makes the streak win/lose happens more times related to the amount
of my bet.


Very useful information !!! i didn't know that, this is really convenient for the verification !!!

Safedice is using the provably fair system with nonce, so you don't need to verify your bets one by one.
Just change your seed after your betting session to reveal the server seed, then enter your client seed and server seed on
http://dicesites.com/safedice/verifier, and you could check all your bets at once.

OK so the way the math works out is like this:

For your first bet, you have a 50% chance to win.  OK now lest say you have this streak:WLLWWWWLWLLWLLWWWLLLLLLLLLLLLL(X)

X is your next bet.  What are the chances that you will win?  Drum roll please:

50%.

I am very careful with online gambling.  I think there is a chance that every site fudges the numbers when they think they can get away with it.  My method is this: I don't try to win money, I look at it as an entertainment expense.  I never lose more what I plan to, and when that is gone I am done.  I never set aside more money than I would miss.  Sometimes I come out ahead with this, usually not.  But make no mistake: the house always wins.  So please just have fun but never use more money than you can afford to lose.  If losing effects your life in any way then it is too much. 

Your dice example here does look a bit shady, but it really is possible. The only way is to check the PF system before every bet.  IMO if oyu put it on autobet then you are asking for trouble.

i have already played there, too, but i lost almost my bitcoin lol, thanks ur suggestion...

Flash-based, garbage , out of the box casino software is not 'fair'

try HTML5 Roulette, which is provably fair -- https://www.casinobitco.in/bitcoin-casino/roulette/index

Actually i am playing dice right now, but sometimes i back to roullete in a best trusted site, and
i earn 0.1 using the same play i played at other sites.

now it caused me another question playing the dice game....

i am playing with chage 70

and if i bet with minor amount, the streak win appears very usually, also appears streak lose, but it
just reaches to 3, or 4 as a lot, it happens sometimes, and i learn what you taught me, this really
could happend


now when i am writing this post, i set it auto play with very minor amount too , 0.000002 if i
remember it correctly, however, i forget to set the multiply on loss to 0 , i left it to 2 (  
i know this obvious explode the balance ... )

and my sister came to my room and talked to me, so i couldn't noticed it neither,
and magic happens, now i have got the epic streak lose that i didn't see anytime when i bet
with minor amount, i know i have to verify the p.f. and i also trust the site i am playing,
someone could help me to understand this probability relate to the higher bet ?
is because the house edge ?
( i have noticed that the streak lose appears more often if i bet higher )

Thank u in advance...


https://i.imgur.com/ehwZ56t.png


p.s. see u my 0.12 btc ... i will remember u.... should i suggest to them leave the "multiply when lose to 0" ?

What the heck are you talking about? Read carefully what he posted about..


People have their own preferences.

Because there is no thrill in dice not even the roll effect like on roullete you will see the ball rolling

do you gamble because you want to get free money and use it instead of job or you want to have fun and spend your time? it depends on that

That's why I don't understand why people choose roulette over dice. Dice actually has a much lower house edge.

I guess its for the fun factor.

A  few casino sites "might"  sometimes cheat in middle of a game without you noticing or being suspicious. Since you likely won't be verifying each and every bet, they might RIG the casino a bit for their advantage. This is just my opinion but never heard of this happening since people don't verify all the bets they made.
and this..

Regarding the loss: The losing chance of your bet is 2/35, so you should expect to see a loss every 18.5 bet on average and it is not that exceptionally rare to see 3 losses in 18 bets.
Regarding PF system: As RHavar mentioned, you should change your client seed and verify the hash after every bet. If something doesn't match, you will know that the site is scamming you with a proof.

BTW, roulette has a rather high house edge (2.7%) when compared with some other games, but it is up to you to choose the games you most enjoy.

Unless im mistaken you put a bet on every number appart from 2 and lost?  that will happen occasionally with the odds on a roulette wheel.

Not only do you have to make sure that the site is provably fair, you have to make sure that the site is fairly random.  How is this site coming up with the results?  Are you sure the results are 100% unbiased?

I've seen that before where the same number comes up 3 times in a row and there are even some sites that give a "jackpot" for when it happens.  I've also seem "0" come up 3 times in a row.  That's about the time that I realized roulette is not the game for me.  I'll stick to the bingo and dice fun thanks very much.

1. i have put the link at the third post, the game provider seems SoftSwiss ? because i know
many sites use their game as a "template" and each site do their modification maybe ?

2. no, it's not my intention to affect their reputation, and this is the final things that burns my thoughts because this is not the first time that appeared this.  And as many of you have said, what that screenshot is happening is not crazy at all, but this was what caused me to think about the p.f.

2 Questions,
1. what site is this ? Looks like a live casino.
2. Any proof of the fact that all your previous bets were on the same numbers except for 4 and 16 ?
Because having a number 3 times in a small sample size is always possible. The screenshot was taken after wards, which could mean you just placed the chips on all the numbers except for the one that appeared 3 times almost in a row in the past. This could be used to affect the reputation of a casino. But since you didn't mention the name this might be unlikely.

Although there are many site which have provably fair games but then too these can cheat to its players.Most of these which are well known and have huge turn out they don't take risk to reach in suspicious sites category.These good sites they try their best to be as clear as possible.As someone mentioned before we don't know what is happening behind the screen so few site can cheat easily.

You really need to do more than just change the client seed, you have to verify the outcome and the hash. Ideally what we'd see is some browser plugins that do the whole process for us, and we can verify the code of the plugin.

This is what happens, too. And actually we can verify the p.f. system, however we are not going
to do this over again and again while playing, i think the thing i will consider to do is intend to change
the client seed at every play ?

Is there any possibility to cheat beside the user dont change their client seed ?

Somehow I think there might a way for casinos to bypass the " provably fair " system.
It is unbelievable for you to lose a few times in a row when you bet almost all the numbers on the table.

I don't know what is this site , but you have to study their system
there is a possibility that they are playing with the results if for example you couldn't change the client seed
just do some researches about the site , you may find some people talking about the same thing
but we can't judge the site from this picture since there is a possibility to get the same number three times in a row
I got the same number two in a row playing dice which has smaller possibility of hitting the same numbe 3 in a row playing roulette
so it happens , but u need to check the ( provably fair ) your self to ensure that

Even it's provably fair, there are many ways to cheating their user
For example, if you play at dice site when you don't change your client seed. The site could find server seed & it's combination, so their player will lose

Well if you play you can just verify your rolls, if these sites claims that they're provably fair then they must atleast have the system posted somewhere inside the site.

haha i know how you fell beleive me.

in the end you will never know if all those sites are ''provably fair'', even if you win you will have that in your mind.

thats the problem, whatever you can read at reddit or somewhere you will never be 100% that is ''provably fair''...


i cant say it better

Every gambling site claim they are provably fair.
I also don't know how to know they are not liar.

i know the perception can lie at some point, but while playing
the games on these sites i just feel that some point there be the cheat regardless
provably fair or not, because the game always happens something that could happen
but should not be so frequently.

As an example, i played roulette, and it usually happens to result a continued red
result, while i am betting on black and vice versa. If this happens just once for
a while i think it's ok, but this just happens so usually that caused my wonder...

i think only the game could play is dice game...

its not about that, its about that some sites are actually cheating, of course four zeroes in a row its possible, its not any less possible than getting 1 - 2 - 3 - 4

The thing is that if you are going to a casino you know the risk but even with that they still cheat, it makes you mad.

To the roulette live in live casino, i have see 3 time consecutive say the number 0 

For the 4 roll, i have play 0 and lost (win 22)

For me, the probability to say 1 number released is the same to other number

Sometimes i have question like your and thinking alone about provably fair. I dont know sometimes when i play casino its like got cheating
This why now im not play casino mini games

Thanks for the link! Yeah I figured this was the case, but I thought the number would actually be closer to 90% :-)

The fact that it's only 50% actually not too bad IMO ...lol Very interesting topic though.

NLNico is an expert person here to explain about this what the wrote in that article because he has much knowledge about the provably fair mechanism, in my point of some online casinos using most advanced method to cheat the players and there is possibility to be get cheat by them while playing there.

Keepinquiet an user here in bitcointalk has been investigating different casino sites that use ''provably fair'' but in a way they could cheat, he already exposed a few of them and it seems like at least 50% of all the casinos advertised on this forum dont have the provably fair system implemented how it should be, however if the site did it right, there would be no way for them to cheat as far as i know.

I asked about this not long ago and people told me that there was no way if the system was really provably fair.

Here is the link: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/is-there-any-way-for-casinos-to-cheat-the-provably-fair-1070228

I was reading the reddit article/post below the other day, and it seems even the "provably fair" system can be a false sense of security for gamblers more then anything else.

Post is here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1frm4x/provably_fair_by_bitzino_not_provable_with/

I'm NOT a coding expert, but if this post is true? my guess is most casinos are using it to bypass the "provably fair" system. 

Unfortunately when money is involved, extreme GREED always follows.

Thanks your explanation, i will take time to read this, and also consider to play the dice game

PS, i am horrible at Math, i think is time to retake the books...

If the site does not allow you to change the client seed, then it is not truly fair.    That client seed is a huge part of the key in making sure the server(house) can't cheat the customers.   Provably fair is one of the biggest contributions that bitcoin has made to gambling.

Well first thing to realize is that provably fair does not mean the casino cannot cheat. It only means you as a player could detect cheating if you take the time to verify the outcomes (and if the implementation is correct.)

I had a quick look and they use "verify per roll" method, which means you should verify the outcome after each bet. They DO seem to use a good implementation for the "per roll" method, especially since they generate a random clientseed every bet in the browser.

The "verify" button only checks on their site so cannot be trusted, you should manually verify the rolls by this:

1. Before bet: Copy "Hash (Result + Secret)" on the right side of the site (and ideally change your client seed.)
2. Make your bet
3. Copy "Result + Secret" into: http://www.xorbin.com/tools/sha256-hash-calculator and check if the result is the same as the hash that you got before the game (and therefor really true.)
4. Combine your client seed and their result (if more than 36, it will start from 0... so 18+24 = 42 = result 5)

You now know that they gave the hashed result before the game already (since you checked the hashed) and that the result is correct




PS, you can read my article http://dicesites.com/provably-fair for a better understanding. And a lot of dice sites use a different implementation with a nonce. IMO that makes it faster for the player to verify the results since you don't have to verify every bet. Some examples that use this: PrimeDice, JustDice, PocketRocketsCasino, BitDice, SafeDice and many others.

PS2, the odds for you to lose 3 or more times in 7 bets is 0.47% which is not that crazy. To lose 3 or more times in all 16 bets is 5.21% chance of happening.

The site is http://casino.newsandscore.com/

btw, which sites that implements completely provably fair mechanism ?

It depends on the provably fair method used. Some implementation of some sites are actually not really complete and allow the casino to still cheat in certain ways. However I am not sure what site that is and therefor I do not know if that site has a good implementation.

http://i.imgur.com/VQFW4Se.jpg

 

I know it's provably fair, but this really makes me think if
there is any "special" mechanism beyond the screen.

This is not the first time happens to me, also there are
another things similar to this...