Topic: YOSHIE & his friends were abusing Trust System (Read 837 times)

No problem as you have posted it publicly. We have no problem for that. As I didn't know you have posted publicly, I was confused.

This is where I have mentioned about that to let the user know that there’s nothing going on- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.56600031
If you wanted to keep that information secret, I'm sorry that I publish it here. Extremely sorry, I just wanted to give the update here.

Have I used your fund to give the loan? If not why wasting time for it?

I do not need it. And I don't think it is business any of you out of me and YOSHIE. You may ask anything regarding the loan if I create scam accusation. Until then you should skip about this loan.

I do not think I should  provide any information to you. It is our business, not you.

As further as I can remember only I, YOSHIE and one person (Little Mouse) knew about the etc, who asked me few days ago about the loan via telegram. How did you know about that? Are you alt of that person (Little Mouse)? If you are alt of (Little Mouse) why you are not posting from that account.

Quite frankly, you aren't involved in the repayment so it's none of your business to question loan terms that loaner and loanee have agreed on privately.

Before new system, counter feedback was used to remove red warning message for accounts which were tagged. It can serve to show trust senders that their negative trust is inappropriate and they should remove it (for example, lauda-eddie13 fight IIRC over some words, lauda tagged eddie, 2 users countered feedback then lauda tagged eddie again and feedback was countered again, then lauda decided it is best to remove negative feedback).
Already done. OP can lock this topic.

People have been saying this same thing about the trust system and the DT members in it for years now.  I'm not sure if the rotating system has made things better or worse, but with Lauda gone there do seem to be fewer "cliques" within the DT system.

I hadn't read any of your previous posts, OP, so I'm not sure why YOSHIE and the two others tag-teamed you with neutral and negative feedback, but I don't think any of it is justified.  You might have been too persistent in asking YOSHIE to prove her identity (she wasn't gone all that long and I don't think there's any evidence that the account changed hands), but I don't think that's so offensive that it deserves even a neutral, much less ones harshly-worded as the ones you got. 

Everyone involved here should just take a breath and re-evaluate the importance of the issues at hand, which IMO, are not critical.  I don't think a member who's been gone a few weeks should have to sign a message to prove their identity, and I also don't think someone insisting they do so should get blasted on their trust page.  Get a thicker skin and don't leave what amounts to retaliatory feedback for a trivial issue.

I wouldn't do it. I would use neutral to counter a negative tag if I think it isn't warranted.

Is adding counter feedback and giving positive trust to someone an appropriate use of the trust system?

I never agreed with counter-feedbacks. Even if someone is tagged in what I deem to be unfairly in my opinion, I would never give a counter positive trust rating just or the sake of it because there is no justification for it.


I don't think that deserves negative feedback, see:
I understand what you quoted from theymos (the word controversial was never defined by him so we can interpret that quote differently from person to person) but nutildah summed up the scenario very well in an earlier post in this thread:

The loan-case gave me the same feeling, but as long as shasan is okay with it, why would anyone else care?

Great! I consider this sorted now.

@marlboroza: since all negative feedback on OP has been removed, you should probably remove your positive feedback too.

I don't think that deserves negative feedback, see:

My negative rating was left primarily because Fact Finder stated he was using an alt account to post because he did not want using his real account. The rest of the comment in my rating was secondary.

(For reasons I do not want to state) I have changed the feedback to neutral.

I am also human having a deep feeling of love, so, some of my friends in this forum suggested the best for me on this matter.

As suggested: and my decision: "neutral" for the user: @Fact Finder.

So, I appreciate everyone here, hopefully in the future it will be better for everyone.
Regards.

My final thought on the subject is if I were in Yoshie's situation and somebody opened a thread demanding to know the latest info about an outstanding loan I had, I wouldn't give them a red trust for it, but I would tell them to go fuck themselves.

jesus, you two need a room?

I said they "probably" didn't deserve the feedback.

How hard is it to understand that the loan is none of anybody's business except for that of Shasan and Yoshie? Is Yoshie suddenly asking for loans or money in any capacity? No. As a matter of fact he turned down Timelord's free money. So give it a rest, you're working overtime to defend somebody acting out of revenge and with dishonest intentions.

Trying to bring someone down by raising question about loan status because account become inactive and asking him to sign message because account changed password, got it. Not to mention that "active loan" neutral feedback showing information of not repaying loan on time. Yeah, that definitely deserve negative feedback.  

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On side note, nutildah can you lend me 4000$ I promise I will return you 4400$ in 20 days?  

Nobody owes you anything. Shasan owes you nothing, Yoshie owes you nothing. Stop asking people to do things for you.

If Yoshie removed the negative tag against you, then you'd truly have nothing on him, because the whole loan thing is nothing. So, I do hope he does that. And I'm willing to bet he does understand why its not a good reason to tag people just for criticism.

Not having any information in your loan thread about the continuation of YOSHIE's loan status with you after the last agreement is something that can lead to speculation when the borrower has been inactive for several weeks without a word. that's why my speculation came up against YOSHIE.


Why did you never ask him to submit partial proof of payment in the related thread? Do you only receive interest on your loan with YOSHIE without repaying the principal? 160 ETC is the total loan that you mentioned to someone a while ago. But I stopped speculating about loans after YOSHIE was active and proved itself. The problem is resolved because both of you have other agreements that I cannot interfere with.

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Careless? You just want to maintain your reputation when some of my questions go unanswered during your time off. Why are you so eager to cover my mouth with the power called the trust system? Who is careless now? You are guilty of using the trust system to act as a shield after a few questions I have asked.

This statement makes me smile YOSHIE. You are the DT1 that has been trusted by several other DT1 users to occupy this position. You're just using the bias of all the open conversations there is that your imagination is telling you I'm trying to attack you. And

You begin to show me the power you have from the trust system. You are too hypocritical YOSHIE to say that you need to learn better how to use your current strengths. You consider yourself a king of power who can make others believe in your opinion. That is utter foolishness.

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All this is full of hatred, you start speculating about me even you are stirring up the truth with emotional hatred.

Everyone here who looks so mad at me is stirring up the facts with hatred. The trust system is not the right way to use it as a protection when you never like someone when they are accusing, speculating, asking questions. YOSHIE's selfishness has created new problems so that she cannot truly be trusted.

nutildah, you're nice. Don't let your brain keep thinking that I'm trying to ruin your friend's reputation. He was truly guilty of using the trust  system to solve his problem. Now this case has escalated to abuse of the trust system, so you have no reason to say I can't be trusted. The 3 responses on my profile are evidence of the so-called abuse of the trust system.

I'm not the one trying to bring down an established cheater buster - currently recovering from an accident of some sort - by slinging some shit about an outstanding loan that affects nobody in any capacity. I've received negative feedback for far less.

I think you are missing my point here. Never mind. Send me PM when (if) you and JG remove negative ratings.
Doh! It's not. It is counter-feedback to emotional negative feedbacks, as soon as they remove tags I will remove counter as well.
What's difference between Fact Finder speculating about Yoshie and you speculating about Fact Finder being alt account of red trust user who is doing this for revenge? Does it mean that you will also get negative feedback? 
IF? Where have you been all this time?

So tell me how a good system works.

I have feelings too and @JollyGood, @Timelord2067, should take it too.

I might be able to change my mind to change the word neutral or delete it.
Let's end this dispute, if at all possible.

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I also appreciate both of them in the decision of trust that I give.

EDIT:
If this kind of action occurs frequently on this forum, the forum will have nothing left to do.

If someone wants to accuse, he can create 1-5 accounts and then discard.
This could happen for you and me, does that make sense.

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Already seen this one: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/clarification-yoshie-5325469

Sad no.

Living in the real world, unpredictable.

It doesn't, and it matters about as much as the shit-stirring alt account itself, which is not very much.

I think issuing a positive counter-trust to such an account is an over-reaction; perhaps worse than Yoshie's neg tag on a throwaway account.

This Fact Finder account was created purely to stir shit. If they had honest intentions they would have just posted from their main account.

Just because someone creates an alt account to "say things that can't be said from a main account", it doesn't mean what they have to say is at all valuable or relevant.

If someone walks into a room wearing a mask, says "I'm doing this to protect my reputation, I don't want to be criticized," and then proceeds to smear feces all over the walls, they don't have the right to be thought highly of.

It's a low blow to hound a guy over a loan when the lender has expressly made clear that it's all good. And I definitely would not label OP's behavior of throwing shit around to see what sticks as "trustworthy."

Is Yoshie/JollyGood/Timelord's use of the trust system proper in this instance? Probably not. But its not like they are dissuading the next Vitalik Buterin from participating in the forum. This person was likely issued a red trust by Yoshie on another account and now they are trying to get revenge. It's a blind stab at retribution that is totally tactless given Yoshie's recent misfortune.

From an entirely practical POV, how does red-trusting a shit-stirring noob (if that's what this is; I don't understand 80% of what YOSHIE says so I can't be sure of anything here) help anything or anyone? It just gives more ammunition to shit stirring noobs. The same has been true for years with cryptohunter's sockpuppets, the same is true for any other shit-stirrer. A sockpuppet created for the sole purpose to post some nonsense (free speech FTW) isn't gonna be stopped or "learned" via red trust, and the particularly nasty ones will probably spin it as proof of whatever they're alleging. Whereas a calm factual statement in italic can carry the same warning without misusing the trust system.

I'm not gonna lecture you all on the guidelines of the trust system, from what's posted on the actual trust pages ("high risk" etc) to everything theymos has said over the years on this subject to LoyceV's blood and tears invested in his trust guide. I know we are all super smart and measuring the garage for a Lambo so we can't possibly follow any rules or advice or whatever but how about logic and common sense. Any of that left on this forum?

What is shown here about my loan that has been frozen / expired is no longer valid, it's just that we continue via PM and Telegram in the future, as Shasan said.

So, no more updates in the shasan thread, we already trust each other for lending, we only discuss it in PM and Telegram, without involving the Forum again, it's just that the Reference in my profile is for a handle on shasan in the future, If there is a problem, however, for now everything is real and safe, the lender and the recipient are both happy.

Actually this problem is frozen / dead, it's just that people who don't know about us, want to bring up the old ones that have been buried, in other words they don't know the truth, In my opinion, the loan is personal, so, as long as the loan is secured, it is not a burden and is happy, I feel it is fine.

I feel sad you say "disappointed" because of the troll, actually this is not the first thread, already 3 threads have done like this with the same account.
You don't need to hesitate about me and shasan's "loan", we have a commitment.
I am still the old Yoshie, in your mind, have not changed one bit.

Anybody is free to say anything.

Should they?

That's another story.

Yes, but you see, you asked for a loan in January and you said you will repay it in February, in February you said that you will repay remaining amount in March and in March you said that you will repay everything in April. And now, you are partially repaying something you supposed to repay a year ago. So if you ever take another loan and you say you will return it next month, lender can expect to see money next year, right?
Errrr...last time I checked someone open topic complaining about negative trust they received and I thought this is discussion forum so I replied.
Aha, so it is OK to not repay loan on time as long as you don't seek new loan and tag users who asked few questions, right? 
It is not what I have said, nutildah...

Because, as I said, it doesn't concern you in the slightest. Yoshie has an ongoing negotiation with shasan. If shasan isn't bothered with it, neither should you be. It's a bit rude and low to poke around dredging up drama about people's outstanding loans if they are not actively seeking new loans. So what? He's not perfect. Neither is anybody.


You're also saying this person is trustworthy by leaving them a positive trust. I don't know what you seek in going out of your way to protect what is obviously a shit-stirring sockpuppet.

Whether you repaid your loan or not is irrelevant to the fact that the feedback pertains to an inquiry.

I do not tag people for being wrong. Is there something that separates the original user's investigation with the curiosity of the other users which replied to the thread? Is it the fact that it was more detailed or that there was a relevant hypothetical?

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On the subject of the loan, though, one would expect a rational lender to strike a public complaint when something does go wrong. However, making an assumption like this as a starting base would not be the most practical avenue to proceed through.

Calm down friends, don't say like that, i feel sad, i am still like before, i don't disappoint you, we are still strong like before.

You see this:



Get rid of your doubts and be disappointed, all is well.

You know me, I also understand about you, this is just a misunderstanding, long term, that's our decision.

However, we can finish it whenever we want between me and shasan, today, one year, two years, three years or the next five years.

Can we stop contemptuously tagging new accounts and acting with impunity toward the typical use of the trust system?

Don't write your own self-fulfilling prophecies, waiting until users are brimming with indignant rage and replies to complete the circle. This is just a skewed version of accepting a conclusion and developing confirmation bias.

I am getting partial repayment almost each month. And I am getting response when I am sending message, so there is no problem about the loan. Even I got partial repayment last month.

Someone didn't repay loan for more than a year. How is that not a good question?  Actually, I am pretty damn sure that most people would like to know that info before someone ask them money, just to know what they can expect.
I know it's not, I only shared my opinion about people who don't repay loans on time, call it life experience. Perhaps you have different opinion about this and that's fine. I actually wasn't aware of this, but as I am now, I am very disappointed with yoshie.
But it has something to do with money, so it is reputation and trust issue. Anyway, I countered ratings. When users decide to place neutral feedbacks for so called "trolling purposes" I will gladly remove it.

All I can comprehend in this issue is that there are still users that uses the Trust System as their line of defense to maintain a good image in the forum. I don't get why it is their basis of defense against other people that oppose them in ways that doesn't really imply trading risks nor has money involvement. I salute the points of the OP as it was a clear and straightforward argument yet using negative trusts just to tell everyone that users must believe your side is a No-no. I'm not just pertaining to YOSHIE nor TimeLord, I talk about everyone who still sees the Trust System as their shield against bad image and accusations.

Aren't we all tired of this issues? I guess it is better to just resolve everything in a clean argumentative way, by publishing a single thread that would showcase sides of both parties. Newbie or not, if there would be evidences against one another, then there would be the answer.

Yes, there are both loop-holes on both sides. But if the main accuser doesn't really provide any evidences that would strengthen his argument, how can we believe? I mean isn't ignoring the topic enough. In psychology, the more you give attention to people that seeks your attention is the more they thrive and be aggressive for it. Hence, once the OP provides enough evidences with his claims, then the opposing side must provide their proof as well. If there was not, then should we bother giving this a time?

Not a good question. That thread was created with the simple goal of shitsmearing. It's obviously an alt of somebody who was tagged by Yoshie for what could be a legitimate reason.


Maybe not but I am less offended when accounts created for the specific purpose of trolling are tagged for dubious reasons. I'm just a racist in that way, I suppose.


Not your problem or concern in the slightest and not worth pontificating upon.


So you positive trusted an obvious troll account who is seeking revenge on somebody by bringing up an issue that has nothing to do with anything?

So YOSHIE has active loan for over a year now, he went offline for couple of weeks, someone raised good question - and got tagged because they are...newbie account recognized as troll That's just wow!
Me neither.

Maybe it is just me, but when I lend someone money I expect to see that money on arranged date. Ok, maybe person who borrow money can't repay it on time, so I could go with extension, I mean, what the heck else I can do except to hope that I will see my money back? Nothing, really.

So what does this "we communicate" exactly mean? Someone is telling you that they will return you your money then next month they are telling you "don't worry, I will return you your money" then next month they are telling you again "I will return you your money, don't worry" over and over again, until when? I've been there couple of times, don't trust such people with money! They will probably eventually return you money, but the time you have to wait for it...uhhh.

And really, things which Fact Finer said and Timelord2067 offering money to YOSHIE to repay part of loan:
...does it mean Timelord2067 is trying to help YOSHIE because he knows YOSHIE can't repay loan, I mean, if YOSHIE can repay loan then Timelord2067 wouldn't offer him help to repay loan.

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My conclusion: I won't trust YOSHIE with money as he showed that he is incapable of returning it on time (errr...at the moment -he is not capable to return it), and, I will counter these negatives on OP's wall linking this post as referrence.

Actually, you wanted a great deal more:


Care to explain what gives you the authority to ask any user for personal information? Not to mention that medical information is further protected by patient confidentiality.


Let's stop right here. I don't think YOSHIE (or anyone else, for that matter) has to substantiate anything to you or to anyone else here.
You don't trust a particular user? Fine. Don't do business with him. Put him on Ignore and remove him from your Trust network. Case closed.
You have evidence or indications that a user is cheating, scamming or might do some other bad things on the forum? Great! Open a scam accusation or reputation thead, present your evidence and ask for the community's opinion. Case closed.


It's amusing when you say that while reading this nonsense:


What the fuck was that? So you've accused YOSHIE of loan default without proper evidence, and you've also accused shasan of being a coward?
You don't just throw accusations around unless you can prove them.

Clearly, you have some personal grudges, resentments, or frustrations against YOSHIE, but you're not man enough to bring them up with your main account, preferring instead to hide behind a newbie throwaway account (by your own admission). So, who is the real coward in this scenario?

Who told you that there is a problem with me regarding the loan? We have no problem, we have regular communication. Even I didn't  know about the inactivity. When I came to know then I contacted and got response within few minutes. So, obviously there is no problem and no miscommunication. And for you kind information if we had any problem then I would mention that  by giving a neutral/negative trust. So, you should not make a headache for it.

I don't consider this correct use of the Trust system:

Allow me to quote the creator of the Trust system:

That being said:
You expected this, and it's the reason you created this account in the first place. It's obvious you have some beef with YOSHIE. You can just abandon this account, there's no real loss for you.
Many DT-members left one or a few feedbacks I disagree with. I always look at is as a bell curve: if it's not too much, I won't exclude a user for it. Agreeing 100% is virtually impossible. That's unfortunate for some feedbacks, but I can't change that.

Now you're just speculating. I have no reason to doubt YOSHIE: he was in a well-earning signature campaign and didn't post for a few weeks. That doesn't sound like someone who left to forum to abandon an open loan.

The general consensus is that anything that's covered by the unofficial forum rules shouldn't be handled through the Trust system.  You're quoting mprep who letterally says to report the posts, not to tag someone for it.

The problem with leaving red tags for people's opinion is that red tags lose their meaning. OP is a Newbie, so I wouldn't trust him with any money, but that doesn't put him at the same level as a Newbie who actually scammed someone and therefore deserves negative feedback.

This is the first time I reply about you, very impressed, everyone in this forum is excited about your actions and behavior.

There are not many direct twists and turns, which I want to convey, read and ponder wisely.

Yes: you are not mistaken with me, it's just that you are too careless in judging and responding to someone, you are too reckless in your actions, that is what is called the "employer's eating weapon".

It seems, you don't really understand the DT work system, so you think DT is useless stuff, you can tinker with your behavior that looks sloppy and doesn't make sense.

I affirm for you:
What happens to you is not my will: but by your own deeds.

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continue: for the belief system you mean, let's say DT.

Actually you go straight to the point below.
Should be before heading to the system written by @theymos, You should have checked the ground rules before going to that level.

What you need to learn first is the basis of the system, not to the point.
You seem to need to reread the rules below, before you take up your gun and point at another DT.


This is where you talk about nonsense that doesn't make sense and causes problems, you really deserve to be called a troll, it is strictly prohibited in this forum.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.56599450

https://archive.vn/mKkou

Your real goals and intentions are below.

Now you have it all, enjoy.

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I've said it already: "God" is perfect.

My advice to you:
If you do not have expertise in your field, you should not do it, it can all turn for yourself, for the future both in real life and on the internet, in the end the regret that you get, that is: envy, slander, and lust, can destroy you yourself.

It's a bit late for that, seeing how that's pretty much all that you've done.


I... There's a lot going on in this sentence. But let's try to break it down. It seems like you are unhappy with having received a red tag from Yoshie on a different account and now you are trying to exact vengeance on him. Which isn't cool to begin with, but it's especially not cool seeing as how we tend to believe his story over anything you have to say.

Also, dogs can't hold hammers. They can't really hold anything, which is part of why thumbs are awesome.

Ever since YOSHIE left the forum without a word for a while, my mind has become chaotic. He is a forum contributor who has contributed a lot to the forum. Her great skill in spotting scammers was appreciated and I felt good about her job.

Some things that I regret very much are not many people who support me to reveal the facts that actually happened to YOSHIE. Accused me of trolling and they were all YOSHIE trust networks helping each other and started to think that whatever I said was my attempt to damage YOSHIE's reputation.
I asked YOSHIE to sign a message after password reset via email during inactivity, but someone reasoned that YOSHIE didn't need to prove anything to me and this forum with a signed message. They want to distort the facts with their strength and lead to opinions that don't make sense.

Some of these users keep calling me a troll because I just want the facts to be clear. As I have said, I have no intention of hating YOSHIE but my suspicions about ownership of his account must be substantiated with a signed message.
Coolcryptovator began communicating with YOSHIE via telegram which had changed with a new identity. YOSHIE reasoned that his old telegram was a disposable number on the internet so Coolcryptovator had to prove its authenticity by asking YOSHIE to sign the message. YOSHIE reasoned that he would do it if he could because his health condition had not fully recovered.

Although Coolcryptovator was able to personally verify that it was the real YOSHIE, he never said that YOSHIE could not sign messages with his bitcoin address which was used to sign messages from this address: 15Z6q6STzyHawwHroemvmA7X4jsBdBH1MR and It is a hidden fact.

At the same time, YOSHIE tagged me with a neutral tag because I was considered a troll and took care of his personal matters when I didn't mean to. I consider it a misunderstanding that is too quickly judged. But moments later he gave me a negative tag with some modified words.

The Timelord2067 is full of enthusiasm and cowboy style to tag me with YOSHIE sentiment reasons but because Lucius came and said something
Timelord2067 decided to remove the tag for fear of being blamed for his carelessness. Jollygood also tagged me for reasons of YOSHIE sentiment and he is the third user. This cannot be justified when I want YOSHIE to prove to the public that he is right.

YOSHIE and her two friends' actions are considered insulting to the trust system. But who believes and who cares?
You never immediately believe that someone who can't sign messages from their bitcoin address is the same person and we have to be careful about doing anything with them. But I am lost here because none of them support my perception.

Regarding the loan, I also don't mind if he is active especially Shasan never said anything about it, but he did tell us that YOSHIE still has 160 ETC outstanding loans. But since he never appeared, I was free to speculate on him. YOSHIE came back to life after I highlighted his loan problems with Shasan. He was annoyed and started making up a story that he had a problem as revealed by Coolcryptovator. Who will believe? Only people who exist in the YOSHIE trust system.

Now that Timelord2067 removed the tag on my profile, he started offering YOSHIE some ETH to help him pay off the loan to shasan which was previously thought not to be the cause of YOSHIE missing for some time even though YOSHIE has made it clear that there is no problem with the loan on its clarification thread. Today's Timelord2067 way of showing me support that he agrees with my previous speculation about YOSHIE not being able to repay the loan is correct. But I didn't want to make a big deal about it after YOSHIE was back on and let it do it on its own.

I believe the current YOSHIE is the real YOSHIE because it seems like he is still very temperamental. His attitude was still the same as before he was lost. And now he can sign message with this address.

This kind of abuse of the trust system by dt is unfortunate. They act at will and abuse their power to protect their sects, friends and friends. They have broken the trust system and made it an irreplaceable kingdom. They are connected to each other and strengthen each other. Whatever it is, I take it as harassment. There is no exception when a user is eager to know the facts about what happened. The punishment was too quick because the hammer was in their hands. When the hammer is in the dog's mouth, justice belongs to the master.

It's up to you what you will tell me after all the facts you think are wrong. In fact, to date YOSHIE has not can been able to prove that it still has access to its old bitcoin address to sign messages and he is real YOSHIE.

YOSHIE, I don't hate you and apologize for my speculation. But the current behavior of you and your two friends has violated the trust system. You cannot be trusted and other dt members should take you off their trust list because I am not at fault for asking anything and want them to prove a fact.

Don't force me to fight injustice here myself, I don't want to be considered a troll and a forum contributor hater. The new fact is that it is very easy to tarnish the reputation of our own account if you don't completely agree with the dog holding his master's hammer.