Author

Topic: Your lack of Vigilance is costing YOU - Wake up! (Read 432 times)

legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1008
Unless you are playing a (somewhat) skill based game like poker, you are guaranteed to lose long term at any "casino". They have operating costs and want to make a profit too, so you will only be able to beat the house short term - it's basic odds weighed against you.

Actually all of these profit things is depends on your luck but with some skill based games like poker may be you dont really need that because like its name, skill based games which is depends more than your skills than luck but it does not mean that you do not nees luck on playing poker because you need a good cards too to boost your winning. So I think to be a winner and getting profit on casino luck is everything
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1011
Unless you are playing a (somewhat) skill based game like poker, you are guaranteed to lose long term at any "casino". They have operating costs and want to make a profit too, so you will only be able to beat the house short term - it's basic odds weighed against you.

I believe even in those skill-based games also you can't win every time you play those games because of there also you need some luck to support your skills. There are many people lost a lot of money in these poker games as well so no games will work in the long term in gambling but we may win once in awhile because of luck.
newbie
Activity: 22
Merit: 0
Interesting read, thanks for throwing it in. Most people who play understand the risks of such things, and especially in cryptocurrencies this is more common to happen. But hopefully as more people become educated, things get better and more profitable Wink
legendary
Activity: 2688
Merit: 1192
Unless you are playing a (somewhat) skill based game like poker, you are guaranteed to lose long term at any "casino". They have operating costs and want to make a profit too, so you will only be able to beat the house short term - it's basic odds weighed against you.
hero member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 609
In gambling as far as you are the one that choose bitween the high and low, you are hundreds percent responsible to the outcome of your decisions therefore, which one are you saying that they defraud you? All the fact you write in your articles might be truth but you should know that gambling companies are there to take all this odd against you.
As usual gambling site would really be blamed in the end of the day saying that they are not provably fair at all. This is why i dont really bother on how fair they are or they do really say the truth but one things for sure no matter how they would claimed such fairness we cant still be sure on whats behind.This is why i just followed up their reputation not totally caring about on how fair they are. As long there are lots of people playing then it would be considered fair for me. Grin
sr. member
Activity: 530
Merit: 250
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
Most sites these days offer provable fairness.

the proble is most people don't know what provable fairness is. If a company doesn't offer or advertise it, the uninformed is just in the dark. You don't normally go intoa  casino and ask to prove it is fair.

Same goes for online casinos. The average user has no clue that it is even possible to prove fairness. So thanks for this thread hopefully it helps someone.
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1251
Hmm... I don't know if you're aware of that Op but provable fairness isn't an obligation at all...
I don't know which website invented it to be honest. But it's actually a convention in dice sites and on some other gambling sites on BTC but for all online casinos there is nothing like provable fairness that is implemented most of the time.

I don't understand what you're trying to say, that casinos are bending the odds in their favor? No shit sherlock xD
full member
Activity: 770
Merit: 126
Op, gambling is a game of either you gain or loose your money and there is no two way about it for as you are in to make profit so also they are all in to make profit at your expense. If you are not ready to loose the gambling is not for you.
full member
Activity: 2128
Merit: 180
Nice read!

But gambling is always not fair.
Odds are always in favor on the house what ever type of casino it is land-base or online.

Also i do not know any person who gamble that does not lose money, that is how gambling is you lose some you win some.


Definitely, gamblers should realize this one because in gambling loosing is very common. Don't gamble if you can't afford to loose money, and don't expect to always win. Personally I witnessed some people who are addict in gambling, and I feel sorry for them because they forgot to control their emotions.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
ADAMANT — the most secure and anonymous messenger
I think this is kind of misleading information or opinion however you want to call it. Most legitimate bitcoin  casinos will use some kind of probably fair game system. Even casinos in Las Vegas or Atlantic city use some sort of mathematical formula for payout on physical slot machines. Now if you look at the article you posted you will notice how there is a way to check the system.
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1150
Freedom&Honor
End of the day, despite what everyone says, if a site is not provably fair you CANNOT prove they are fair.

It's such an easy implementation that I am happy for websites or software providers to contact me in regards to implementing. I have two people working with me & CGF exactly for that. And OP I replied to your PM, sorry about the delay.

How do you do this?
You never fill the box yourself (as a website) and make the user do it?
sr. member
Activity: 882
Merit: 269
In gambling as far as you are the one that choose bitween the high and low, you are hundreds percent responsible to the outcome of your decisions therefore, which one are you saying that they defraud you? All the fact you write in your articles might be truth but you should know that gambling companies are there to take all this odd against you.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Edward Miroslav
End of the day, despite what everyone says, if a site is not provably fair you CANNOT prove they are fair.

It's such an easy implementation that I am happy for websites or software providers to contact me in regards to implementing. I have two people working with me & CGF exactly for that. And OP I replied to your PM, sorry about the delay.
full member
Activity: 364
Merit: 107
Nice read!

But gambling is always not fair.
Odds are always in favor on the house what ever type of casino it is land-base or online.

Also i do not know any person who gamble that does not lose money, that is how gambling is you lose some you win some.
legendary
Activity: 2436
Merit: 1804
guess who's back
not only bitcasino and bitstarz , even fiat sites have the same thing especially with slots providers
they aren't provably fair , I know that it doesn't make sense for a casino to cheat on a player but who knows this may actually be the case
so players should decide if they trust the site enough to play , cause even pokerstars have a game that's called spin n goes where you can turn 5$ to one million  ( in a very rare situation of course ) it's not provably fair and they may be stealing some money but people trust them

in the future I doubt that we will see gambling as it's today , every gambling game should be provably fair

PokerStars was sold for $4.9 billion in 2014. It makes no sense for a company like that to try and scam for such a comparatively small amount as $1 million. They would be risking billions in equity by doing so. This is the same reason larger crypto-casinos should, if they're smart, not scam, since they can make much more money by selling the enterprise with a good reputation than scamming. Whether they are actually smart remains to be seen...

yeah they won't go for that but was just giving an example , it's a matter of trust
but all games should be provably fair even if the site is super trusted and even regulated , it's better for both sides

some sites can be trusted cause they have big names , but you can't be 100% sure that they aren't scamming you if they don't have provably fair system
hero member
Activity: 908
Merit: 657
not only bitcasino and bitstarz , even fiat sites have the same thing especially with slots providers
they aren't provably fair , I know that it doesn't make sense for a casino to cheat on a player but who knows this may actually be the case
so players should decide if they trust the site enough to play , cause even pokerstars have a game that's called spin n goes where you can turn 5$ to one million  ( in a very rare situation of course ) it's not provably fair and they may be stealing some money but people trust them

in the future I doubt that we will see gambling as it's today , every gambling game should be provably fair

PokerStars was sold for $4.9 billion in 2014. It makes no sense for a company like that to try and scam for such a comparatively small amount as $1 million. They would be risking billions in equity by doing so. This is the same reason larger crypto-casinos should, if they're smart, not scam, since they can make much more money by selling the enterprise with a good reputation than scamming. Whether they are actually smart remains to be seen...
legendary
Activity: 2436
Merit: 1804
guess who's back
not only bitcasino and bitstarz , even fiat sites have the same thing especially with slots providers
they aren't provably fair , I know that it doesn't make sense for a casino to cheat on a player but who knows this may actually be the case
so players should decide if they trust the site enough to play , cause even pokerstars have a game that's called spin n goes where you can turn 5$ to one million  ( in a very rare situation of course ) it's not provably fair and they may be stealing some money but people trust them

in the future I doubt that we will see gambling as it's today , every gambling game should be provably fair
legendary
Activity: 3808
Merit: 1723
This isn't usually an issue that the casino is "not provably fair" because there are many cases where the casino does provide "provably fair" type gambling but people lose money anyways and complain and start scam accusations.

This is no different than those people that stand outside of casinos, telling other gamblers not to gamble there because they lost all their money and were cheated. They usually end up being chased away by security or the police arive to take them away.

I am pretty sure most of the issues today are not because gamblers are cheated but the gamblers just don't know when to stop gambling.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 505
Vigilance is still not the problem. Even if you are vigilant but do not know what to be vigilant about then there is no point. The fact is that people are not aware of what to look out for, heck for sure more than half of the people that try to gamble don't even know how the site is able to roll a random number (which is not actually random by the way, it is just simulating "randomness"). I do believe that in terms of the gambling sites, there should be some sort of centralized authority that would check the gambling sites if they are truly "provably fair". I know that people around here hate the word "centralized" but I believe this is a necessary evil.

You'd be surprised how unregulated online gaming is. It's sadly a very dark industry. It goes a lot deeper than just fairness, practices used to retain players & feed on addiction can be quite sad sometimes.

I think the original post should be reworded a bit, as the article is great but the discussion regarding it has been skewed.

I totally agree, there is indeed nowhere to go without someone that would help gamblers with identifying problematic gambling sites. There is really no way a newbie gambler could have known that he is being cheated on a gambling site he found just by googling "bitcoin gambling casino" or other similar imports. Someone really has to police the casinos around the internet to prevent people from falling victim to an unfair and cheating casino.
sr. member
Activity: 588
Merit: 254
You would better don’t do that, Do not gamble this is very dangerous

Can we stay on topic please? Everyone knows gambling is dangerous and this topic is there for people who understand the danger already and would like to look past that danger, into ways of enjoying their gambling lifestyle.

All i know is that any gambling website where people lose often will certain lose patronage and fold up. There is no 100% sure way of knowing whether a site is provably fair or not.

Actually, there is a way to know whether a site is provably fair or not. If you read the article carefully, you'd find it. You obviously misunderstood the article, so try reading it again. I'm not even gonna dare wasting my time on explaining it to you.

full member
Activity: 229
Merit: 100
Money making legitimately
All i know is that any gambling website where people lose often will certain lose patronage and fold up. There is no 100% sure way of knowing whether a site is provably fair or not.
newbie
Activity: 5
Merit: 0
You would better don’t do that, Do not gamble this is very dangerous
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Edward Miroslav
Vigilance is still not the problem. Even if you are vigilant but do not know what to be vigilant about then there is no point. The fact is that people are not aware of what to look out for, heck for sure more than half of the people that try to gamble don't even know how the site is able to roll a random number (which is not actually random by the way, it is just simulating "randomness"). I do believe that in terms of the gambling sites, there should be some sort of centralized authority that would check the gambling sites if they are truly "provably fair". I know that people around here hate the word "centralized" but I believe this is a necessary evil.

You'd be surprised how unregulated online gaming is. It's sadly a very dark industry. It goes a lot deeper than just fairness, practices used to retain players & feed on addiction can be quite sad sometimes.

I think the original post should be reworded a bit, as the article is great but the discussion regarding it has been skewed.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1006
Interesting article, I have never looked at provably fair games in deeper like this.

So Sites that promote their games to be provably fair just because they give out hashed seed can also be rigged if we can't set up our own client seed. Have seen many of provably fair sites only allow us to autogenerate next client seed automatically which might also come from server side.  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1184
Merit: 1013
Are you accusing Bitcasino of defrauding you?
Also, why would you bet on a website you doubt?
Its not lack of vigilance, its stupidity to bet on a fishy website.
Its even more stupid to create a provably unfair house, more the unfairness, less the traffic and less the profit.
Also someone already said above, the aim of the house to hold you in, an unfair website will only empty your pockets faster and drive the users away.
 
hero member
Activity: 896
Merit: 514
Vigilance is still not the problem. Even if you are vigilant but do not know what to be vigilant about then there is no point. The fact is that people are not aware of what to look out for, heck for sure more than half of the people that try to gamble don't even know how the site is able to roll a random number (which is not actually random by the way, it is just simulating "randomness"). I do believe that in terms of the gambling sites, there should be some sort of centralized authority that would check the gambling sites if they are truly "provably fair". I know that people around here hate the word "centralized" but I believe this is a necessary evil.
full member
Activity: 434
Merit: 103
There is nothing like pure randomness. No matter how hard you try paradox of rationality vs irrationality will haunt you.
hero member
Activity: 1680
Merit: 655
I have to agree with the other users as the article you quoted has a lot of "ifs" in it meaning that it is just a thought. There are no examples or named dice sites that are actually doing what the article is saying. Your warning is simply for something that does not even exist yet or it isn't even a mere issue for gamblers. If the article only have shown evidence with what dice sites are doing it will prove itself as a credible article.
hero member
Activity: 1708
Merit: 606
Buy The F*cking Dip
Provable fair has been thrown around in every gambling site in the internet like it is a casual thing but we still couldn't prove that they are indeed fair in the first place. They can say upfront in their website that they practice provable fairness in their games but we still don't have the means to verify it in a 100% manner. Well, as for starter, don't play in any casino where they don't "claim" their website is governed by provable fair. Second, gamble only the money that you are willing to lose. Never ever expect that you'll go home with any money or profit out of online casinos. Just play it as a hobby and don't expect anything.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Edward Miroslav
Definitely not fair to accuse casinos of doing such a thing without proof. Then again, when a casino isn't provably fair, how can you prove it?

Hopefully these casinos implement fairness. It's a very simple thing to do. It's not complicated what so ever.
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1565
The first decentralized crypto betting platform
You would have lost your money anyway, even if they weren’t rigged.

I don’t understand why casinos would rig their systems because they make a lot of money without rigging them. The most important point for a casino is to attract customers. If there is traffic, casinos make money. The only reason I can think of, is that if they rig the system, people lose their money faster, but if they lose it too fast, they have a bad customer experience and tend to come back less.
sr. member
Activity: 616
Merit: 256
If you play too much on gambling you will never know that you already lose, provably fair never help for a quite fair play game only a house edge gives favor for the advantage.That's why just test the water first if the gambling site gives a fair justice but a doubt only limited number of gambling sites are legit for fair level playing field.
hero member
Activity: 908
Merit: 657
Interesting article, although it seems a bit hypothetical. How is it related to your first paragraph? Are you accusing those sites of defrauding you through this practice? Do they prevent you from choosing hi or low? Are there any gambling websites that prevent you from making this choice?
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 253
The last few months after losing far too much money on Bitcasino & a little on Bitstarz I have come to understand that their games are not fair. I have looked into the industry through a VIP contact I made there and have come to understand that white label solutions are 100% RIGGABLE. Since then I have contacted some people from other websites which are members of the Crypto Gambling Foundation. At first I thought it was a bit of a joke but have soon come to realise this needs to be looked into more!

https://cryptogambling.org/articles/the-problem-with-a-lack-of-vigilance/


Have you lost money playing on non provably fair websites? WAKE UP NOW


Here's the article I linked above. It's worth the read. Gamble responsibly guys. I'm going to start my own website soon trying to help people understand. I'd love it if Aengus could also reply to my PM in regards to helping the CGF more. This is an innitiative I want to take on.

Quote
Provable fairness allows users to play on sites without the fear of their bets being altered into the house’s favor. But there’s an important caveat that is often missed or not explained to the players: full trustlessness is only there if the player does what they need to do also. Nearly all provably fair systems operate on the server seed client seed model. The server shows you a hash of their seed before you start betting and allows you to change your client seed before the first bet of the round. This way, since you are introducing new data into the hash function, the outcome of the hash is no longer controlled by the site as they do not have control over the data you give them.

But here’s the problem: many sites will pre-fill that box for users when they change their seed. This in itself does not have to be a problem. In fact, it’s possible for this to be even more secure than the user entering their own data. If the site allows you to enter up to 32 random characters and they pre-fill the client seed box with 32 actually random characters (preferrably generated on the client side with JavaScript instead of by the server) then it’s more secure than just entering “1234” as your seed, just like a password. (However it’s only “more secure” if the site is malicious and trying to change outcomes, and such a site would probably not generate good seeds for you so the point is moot).

The problem with pre-filling the client seed comes from a situation where the site is malicious, which we should assume until proven otherwise. A malicious site can easily generate a server seed and client seed ahead of time that when used result in more losing bets than winning ones. It’s just a matter of generating random client seeds and checking the results until they get one that’s sufficiently “bad”. If this site were to present this bad seed to the user as a sort of default option, many people would click past it and not think about it. The site would still use all the same provably fair algorithms, but could still be cheating you. Such a thing would only be possible if the site thinks you are likely to keep betting high or keep betting low, because estimates for you winning rely on consistently betting one or the other. (If the site generated a seed pair that would make you lose 55% of the time if you bet high, but you chose to bet low instead, you would be winning 55% of the time instead of losing). However, if the site does not allow you to pick high or low (or the game is some game other than dice where the numbers affect the outcome in a different way) then this opens up a good attack vector for them.

The concern with this kind of attack on players is small, because it would be difficult for a site to pull off consistently, especially without eventually drawing attention, but no hole however small should be discounted, especially with technology like machine learning becoming more prominent. If you take anything from reading this, always change your client seed to something that you created, copy down the hash of your server seed before you start betting and you’ll be fine.
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