[ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Cryptology

legendary

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In Cryptography We Trust

Quote from: Shiroslullaby on October 27, 2016, 04:26:10 PM

If you notice, there is never a reply from any of the devs when someone brings up the question about how they will prove the trusted setup is secure.

This is a security agencies dream come true.
An "anonymous" coin that you can totally monitor and manipulate.

Sorry but I have my tinfoil hat on when it comes to Zcash.

Yeah. Actually I posted this some days ago -> https://forum.z.cash/t/toxic-waste-update/2870
No answers whatsoever.
Zcash is going to be a wild ride. Right now Zcash futures are trading at 1.16 BTC on BitMex. Believe or not. Pure folly.

rustynailer

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Quote from: str4wm4n on October 27, 2016, 05:30:00 PM

kind of stupid that they didnt live broadcast the trusted setup ceremony....

lol, if they did the setup behind closed doors then there is no way you can trust it.

str4wm4n

legendary

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kind of stupid that they didnt live broadcast the trusted setup ceremony....

Shiroslullaby

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If you notice, there is never a reply from any of the devs when someone brings up the question about how they will prove the trusted setup is secure.

This is a security agencies dream come true.
An "anonymous" coin that you can totally monitor and manipulate.

Sorry but I have my tinfoil hat on when it comes to Zcash.

Bitcoinorama

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

zcash is will be everything bitcoin is not.

zcash will have a blockchain that cannot be audited which means there is no way to find hacks or track the true circulation.
zcash will charge a tax on miners to pay investors - 2.1 million coins across 4 years
zcash is a corporation with share holders in the company - what will happen when the corporation needs more money and needs to pay investors?
zcash is a privacy focused currency with known knowns based in the privacy friendly US

Bitcoin's blockchain was revolutionary in that it solved an issue that plagued digital currencies; trustless verification to prevent double spending. Without this one needed to trust centralised parties not to deceive or be coerced.

With Zcash you need to trust Zooko and co not to deceive you to increase the money supply (you wouldnt know otherwise) and not to be coerced (for instance by government), bearing in mind the company Zooko moves with (look at his investors and advisors - the who's who of alt pump and dumps) trust is crucial.

Fact is Zcash is a privacy orientated digital currency that requires complete trust.

Bitcoin is a digital currency where privacy can be incorporated and it trustless.

smoothie

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LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: glerant on October 27, 2016, 05:03:35 AM

Quote from: Cryptology on October 27, 2016, 03:44:00 AM

If you're planning about mining, hoarding or even trading Zcash you need to be aware of the trusted setup problem.

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/09/how-to-compromise-zcash-and-take-over-the-world/

https://minezcash.com/zcash-trusted-setup-complete/

I think this aspect of zerocash (or specifically ZCASH) is very well known and has been discussed here many times.

At the end of the day - people need to decide if they trust the ZCASH team to;
Do due diligence on the code to mitigate the risk of minting using software bugs.
Perform the setup properly and in good faith.
Be honest in their assertion that 'there is no back door'.

The first and last issues should be reasonably easy to check by peer review of the released code.

The concept was well known but the specifics of how, who, when we're not disclosed until just recently.

If you have to trust certain people not to compromise the system instead of relying solely on open source vetting, then you are okay with counterparty risk.

Not something I trust.

KwiZ

newbie

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i think zcash has a very serious problem that if someone could exploit a bug and give himself an unlimited amount of zec, diluting the coin supply, then no one will be able to know because the supply is concealed. And you know, absolutely NO software are bug-free. So it's maybe just a matter of time...

Minecache

legendary

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Isn't the genesis block made up of a keyword each dev knows and we have to trust them not to abuse this authority.

Hueristic

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Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it

Quote from: European Central Bank on October 27, 2016, 10:40:39 AM

no one cares about trustlessness if there's money to be made. only a small amount of people here take it seriously. everyone else wants more dollars or bitcoin and they don't care how they get it. I think it's gonna be huge for a while. crap, but huge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MO7fkZc5o

European Central Bank

legendary

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no one cares about trustlessness if there's money to be made. only a small amount of people here take it seriously. everyone else wants more dollars or bitcoin and they don't care how they get it. I think it's gonna be huge for a while. crap, but huge.

Cryptology

legendary

Activity: 1008

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In Cryptography We Trust

Quote from: glerant on October 27, 2016, 05:03:35 AM

At the end of the day - people need to decide if they trust the ZCASH team to;
Do due diligence on the code to mitigate the risk of minting using software bugs.
Perform the setup properly and in good faith.
Be honest in their assertion that 'there is no back door'.

The first and last issues should be reasonably easy to check by peer review of the released code.

Too much trusting for my nerves particularly in a system where if an attacker gains the possibility of mining new coins indiscriminately it goes undetected for the rest of the world. As a matter of fact such a vulnerability existed in Bitcoin's early days (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Value_overflow_incident). Same situation with Zcash would go undetected presumably.

Hueristic

legendary

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Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it

Quote from: digaran on October 27, 2016, 08:54:33 AM

Quote from: Hueristic on October 27, 2016, 08:48:50 AM

TRUST in a centralized authority is Irrevocably irreconcilable with the Cypherpunk ideals and Satoshi must be sickened by it.

The entire Ideology is based on the system being TRUSTLESS and immutable.

Sorry but what now? the words you used are uncanny to my eyes could you care to explain in noob language?

bitcoin is designed to be unchangeable by TPTB and no-one can change it so you do not need to trust anyone . Therefore without a hardfork no-one can take your money. Bitcoins major flaw (among others) is it is not fungable (can be traced because it is an open ledger).

Quote

Should we mine Zcash or what?

thats up to you.

digaran

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🖤😏

Quote from: Hueristic on October 27, 2016, 08:48:50 AM

TRUST in a centralized authority is Irrevocably irreconcilable with the Cypherpunk ideals and Satoshi must be sickened by it.

The entire Ideology is based on the system being TRUSTLESS and immutable.

Sorry but what now? the words you used are uncanny to my eyes could you care to explain in noob language?

Should we mine Zcash or what?

Hueristic

legendary

Activity: 3836

Merit: 4969

Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it

TRUST in a centralized authority is Irrevocably irreconcilable with the Cypherpunk ideals and Satoshi must be sickened by it.

The entire Ideology is based on the system being TRUSTLESS and immutable.

The only answer is a fungable, immutable chain. With fungability comes untracability, there is no 100% fungable coin. Monero is the closest.

Nothing with a trusted setup can ever be considered fungable, PERIOD. Or even be trusted to not be manipulated.

Zcash from what I understand with Zksnarks there will not even be a way to see if coins are being created out of thin air. I've not wasted much time on this so if I'm wrong about that someone point out where.

glerant

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Quote from: Cryptology on October 27, 2016, 03:44:00 AM

If you're planning about mining, hoarding or even trading Zcash you need to be aware of the trusted setup problem.

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/09/how-to-compromise-zcash-and-take-over-the-world/

https://minezcash.com/zcash-trusted-setup-complete/

I think this aspect of zerocash (or specifically ZCASH) is very well known and has been discussed here many times.

At the end of the day - people need to decide if they trust the ZCASH team to;
Do due diligence on the code to mitigate the risk of minting using software bugs.
Perform the setup properly and in good faith.
Be honest in their assertion that 'there is no back door'.

The first and last issues should be reasonably easy to check by peer review of the released code.

Cryptology

legendary

Activity: 1008

Merit: 1001

In Cryptography We Trust

If you're planning about mining, hoarding or even trading Zcash you need to be aware of the trusted setup problem.

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/09/how-to-compromise-zcash-and-take-over-the-world/

https://minezcash.com/zcash-trusted-setup-complete/

Topic: [ZCASH] The trusted setup problem. (Read 1505 times)