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BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: DaveF on May 03, 2024, 04:23:09 PM

And then what. Would other pools just stand there and take it or would they put a filter in that looks for foundry in the Coinbase tag and invalidate those blocks.

Practically speaking, they wouldn't have done this beforehand, so when Foundry mines two blocks on a row and creates a longer chain, their full node software would automatically switch to that. At least, I'm not aware of a mining pool which has altered their node software for that particular case; makes no sense.

Quote from: DaveF on May 03, 2024, 04:23:09 PM

AntPool and Via and F2 would crush Foundry out of existence if they really tried that.

Followed by their reputation. No sane miner would mine on a pool that wants to crush other mining pools out of revenge.

Quote from: LoyceV on May 04, 2024, 04:07:25 AM

On the one hand, replacing a valid block for profit is bad, but on the other hand, ignoring the longest chain to keep mining a shorter chain is also bad. I'm not sure yet which is the worst.

Ignoring the longest chain for the sake of ethics is one of the most destructive ideas. Bitcoin is based in a game theory, and it shall be based in this forever.

LoyceV

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Quote from: DaveF on May 03, 2024, 04:23:09 PM

AntPool and Via and F2 would crush Foundry out of existence if they really tried that.
People would be screaming on both sides about it

I'm not sure yet on which side I'd be screaming. On the one hand, replacing a valid block for profit is bad, but on the other hand, ignoring the longest chain to keep mining a shorter chain is also bad. I'm not sure yet which is the worst.

DaveF

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on April 29, 2024, 05:03:08 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on April 29, 2024, 03:25:30 AM

Somehow this probability is always larger than I'd expect intuitively.

Remember that if Foundry turned evil, it'd "migrate" its hashrate elsewhere. Therefore, the network would have less hashrate without noticing.

It become even larger if you skip the "mine another block on a row". Foundry has 58% chance to re-write an alternative chain by simply re-writing the most recently mined block (1-conf). However, most of the nodes will have already accepted another chain, and probably most pools will be mining on that other chain. Therefore, they won't accomplish anything by rewriting the previous block. They need to rewrite the previous and mine one on top, so that everyone accepts this chain.

And then what. Would other pools just stand there and take it or would they put a filter in that looks for foundry in the Coinbase tag and invalidate those blocks.
AntPool and Via and F2 would crush Foundry out of existence if they really tried that.
People would be screaming on both sides about it, but if any pool ever tried it would not last long.

-Dave

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: LoyceV on April 29, 2024, 03:25:30 AM

Somehow this probability is always larger than I'd expect intuitively.

Remember that if Foundry turned evil, it'd "migrate" its hashrate elsewhere. Therefore, the network would have less hashrate without noticing.

It become even larger if you skip the "mine another block on a row". Foundry has 58% chance to re-write an alternative chain by simply re-writing the most recently mined block (1-conf). However, most of the nodes will have already accepted another chain, and probably most pools will be mining on that other chain. Therefore, they won't accomplish anything by rewriting the previous block. They need to rewrite the previous and mine one on top, so that everyone accepts this chain.

LoyceV

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on April 28, 2024, 10:20:01 AM

Foundry USA currently has access to approximately 28% of the hashrate. This means that it has 39% probability to successfully rewrite the entire previous block and mine another one on a row.

Somehow this probability is always larger than I'd expect intuitively. Your answer seems to be correct:
Image loading...

(image source: learnmeabitcoin.com)

Quote from: vjudeu on April 28, 2024, 10:51:32 AM

It is possible to publicly announce SHA-256 of the public key, and get it deeply confirmed, and announced everywhere. Then, if any mining pool will try to overwrite a valid block, there will be a strong, publicly-verifiable evidence, that they did it.

Because the solver can announce for example "OP_RIPEMD160 62e907b15cbf27d5425399ebf6f0fb50ebb88f18 OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG", and get it deeply confirmed, without trusting anyone, and without touching the puzzle. And then, everyone can see, if the reward from the puzzle was first moved into "solverPubKey" or not.

Being the first to solve the puzzle is meaningless if someone else beats you to getting their transaction confirmed. Someone else could have solved the puzzle between the time you took to create this transaction, and broadcast the real one.

vjudeu

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Theoretically, it's worth the gamble, even though I haven't worked on the exact math behind it.

It is possible to publicly announce SHA-256 of the public key, and get it deeply confirmed, and announced everywhere. Then, if any mining pool will try to overwrite a valid block, there will be a strong, publicly-verifiable evidence, that they did it.

Because the solver can announce for example "OP_RIPEMD160 62e907b15cbf27d5425399ebf6f0fb50ebb88f18 OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG", and get it deeply confirmed, without trusting anyone, and without touching the puzzle. And then, everyone can see, if the reward from the puzzle was first moved into "solverPubKey" or not.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: LoyceV on April 27, 2024, 12:28:26 PM

What would be the odds of a mining pool trying to replace the mined block and take the puzzle money for themselves?

Foundry USA currently has access to approximately 28% of the hashrate. This means that it has 39% probability to successfully rewrite the entire previous block and mine another one on a row. Therefore, they have two choices.

Either continue honestly, with 28% chance of mining the next block and earning 3.125 BTC, or
Gamble the hashpower of 2 blocks, with 39% chance of success, earning about 10 BTC.

Theoretically, it's worth the gamble, even though I haven't worked on the exact math behind it. However, in practice, destroying reputation like that is a suicide.

nc50lc

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Quote from: LoyceV on April 27, 2024, 12:28:26 PM

Quote from: nc50lc on April 26, 2024, 11:36:49 PM

-snip-

What would be the odds of a mining pool trying to replace the mined block and take the puzzle money for themselves? Normally, it's not worth the risk. But if the puzzle prize is large compared to the block reward, that balance may change.

The blockchain is publicly available, so if ever, that mining pool is risking their reputation for a couple more bitcoins.
vjudeu's reply to the linked topic in my previous post has a nice take on that matter: /index.php?topic=5492493.msg63955089#msg63955089

If that's a big mining pool that has a slight chance to do that, the odds that they'll do that is still low.
If a small solo miner who got no reputation to lose, they will need a tremendous luck to pull that off.

garlonicon

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But if the puzzle prize is large compared to the block reward, that balance may change.

The smallest puzzle on address 13zb1hQbWVsc2S7ZTZnP2G4undNNpdh5so has at the moment of writing 6.60056114 BTC. The basic block reward without fees is now 3.125 BTC. Which means, that if a block has no fees, then the easiest puzzle is worth more than the newly created coins from two blocks.

LoyceV

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Quote from: nc50lc on April 26, 2024, 11:36:49 PM

There are actually a few topics here that already addresses that concern and the consensus is:
"it's not currently possible without the help of a trusted cooperating mining pool/solo miner".

What would be the odds of a mining pool trying to replace the mined block and take the puzzle money for themselves? Normally, it's not worth the risk. But if the puzzle prize is (much) large compared to the block reward, that balance may change.

nc50lc

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Quote from: Airfin Same on April 26, 2024, 05:46:22 AM

Quote from: nc50lc on April 26, 2024, 12:30:44 AM

Is there any particular reason for this?
Because in normal circumstances, this shouldn't be an issue if you're the sole owner of the private key.
Solved puzzle 66 or something?

its about this topic bitcoin puzzle
i saw people talk about things didn't know or hear about beore

Okay, as I thought.

There are actually a few topics here that already addresses that concern and the consensus is:
"it's not currently possible without the help of a trusted cooperating mining pool/solo miner".

Here's to point you to one of the threads: solve key 66 67 Puzzle how to avoid double spends the tx?
AFAIK, there are other discussions that aren't in the first page or posted as a reply to other topics.

Airfin Same

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Quote from: nc50lc on April 26, 2024, 12:30:44 AM

Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 10:30:54 PM

sometimes things confused me like in here block time is ~10min right?

It's "average" block time and not an absolute value.

That is based from the adjusted "difficulty" from the previous 2016 blocks (about 2 weeks).
The harder the difficulty, the harder it is to produce a hash lower than the "target".
So since mining is basically generation of pseudo-random hash, we will never know if miners get lucky enough to generate a valid hash in the next second or unlucky to generate it after an hour.

Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 03:45:37 PM

is it possible to have a transaction confirmed in few sec
by putting the higher fee on the time

by saying final i meant with no possibility to rteplace it with another one

Is there any particular reason for this?
Because in normal circumstances, this shouldn't be an issue if you're the sole owner of the private key.
Solved puzzle 66 or something?

its about this topic bitcoin puzzle
i saw people talk about things didn't know or hear about beore
like this double spend and RBF
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1306983.0;topicseen

nc50lc

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Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 10:30:54 PM

sometimes things confused me like in here block time is ~10min right?

It's "average" block time and not an absolute value.

That is based from the adjusted "difficulty" from the previous 2016 blocks (about 2 weeks).
The harder the difficulty, the harder it is to produce a hash lower than the "target".
So since mining is basically generation of pseudo-random hash, we will never know if miners get lucky enough to generate a valid hash in the next second or unlucky to generate it after an hour.

Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 03:45:37 PM

is it possible to have a transaction confirmed in few sec
by putting the higher fee on the time

by saying final i meant with no possibility to rteplace it with another one

Is there any particular reason for this?
Because in normal circumstances, this shouldn't be an issue if you're the sole owner of the private key.
Solved puzzle 66 or something?

Airfin Same

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Quote from: hosseinimr93 on April 25, 2024, 03:58:12 PM

Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 03:45:37 PM

is it possible to have a transaction confirmed in few sec

As mentioned by BlackHatCoiner above, if the fee you pay for your transaction is high enough, it will be confirmed in the next block and I just want to add that blocks are mined at the rate of 1 per ~ 10 minutes on average.

its very clear answer i get it

i see https://mempool.space/
next block found in 13min sometimes 19min and some times in 2min the next block mined
Huh

higher fee +56 sat/vB

sometimes things confused me like in here block time is ~10min right?

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 03:45:37 PM

is it possible to have a transaction confirmed in few sec

As mentioned by BlackHatCoiner above, if the fee you pay for your transaction is high enough, it will be confirmed in the next block and I just want to add that blocks are mined at the rate of 1 per ~ 10 minutes on average.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 03:29:18 PM

which wallet you recommend that support RBF

These are some wallets that support opt-in RBF: Bitcoin open source wallets that support replace-by-fee (RBF)

If you are not a full node runner, I will advice you to use any of the wallets on the above link.

I have used Electrum, Sparrow and Bluewallet. They are reputed and open source.

If you are a full node runner, you can enable full RBF. Although, SPV wallets that look for nodes that support it should be able to double spend unconfirmed transaction with high fee also even if the transaction does not support opt-in RBF.

Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 03:45:37 PM

is it possible to have a transaction confirmed in few sec
by putting the higher fee on the time

What BlackHatCoiner meant is that a transaction that is not confirmed can be double spent.

A transaction can be confirmed within some seconds and it may take some minutes. It depends on the time you make the transaction, the fee rate that you used and the time the next block is mined.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 03:45:37 PM

is it possible to have a transaction confirmed in few sec

The fastest that you can have it confirmed is in the next block, which can happen anytime. From the next second now to even two hours after. You will have to select the highest fee, though, which as we speak is 43 sat/vb (and use RBF in case that's become less than the highest).

Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 03:45:37 PM

by saying final i meant with no possibility to rteplace it with another one

Only if it's confirmed. If it's 0-conf, it can be double-spent with another 0-conf.

Airfin Same

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on April 25, 2024, 03:34:36 PM

Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 03:29:18 PM

i want to send a transaction and make it final with RBF disabled

That is not possible, and it never was in the first place. When your transaction has 0 confirmations, it is by the protocol not final. If you're referring to the mempool policy rule before full RBF, then it is neither possible. Almost all nodes will have upgraded to Full RBF by now, and even if full RBF nodes are a tiny minority, it's enough to reach the mempool of the mining pools.

thank you for answering

is it possible to have a transaction confirmed in few sec
by putting the higher fee on the time

by saying final i meant with no possibility to rteplace it with another one

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 03:29:18 PM

which wallet you recommend that support RBF

Unfortunately, that user is no longer with us. You can stick with any reputable wallet nowadays, and it supports double-spending with RBF.

Quote from: Airfin Same on April 25, 2024, 03:29:18 PM

i want to send a transaction and make it final with RBF disabled

That is not possible, and it never was in the first place. When your transaction has 0 confirmations, it is by the protocol not final. If you're referring to the mempool policy rule before full RBF, then it is neither possible. Almost all nodes will have upgraded to Full RBF by now, and even if full RBF nodes are a tiny minority, it's enough to reach the mempool of the mining pools.

Airfin Same

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on July 28, 2023, 05:56:20 AM

The point there is to use a better wallet. Tongue

Network rules are not bound or limited by third party developers failing to implement basic functions in their software. Being able to replace an unconfirmed transaction is an increasingly basic function of bitcoin. If your wallet does not allow you to do that, then find a better wallet which does.

which wallet you recommend that support RBF, i want to send a transaction and make it final with RBF disabled
how to do this?
even if the node is full RBF is this possible

in other word how to make a transaction final without any possibility to double spend it

Topic: Full RBF (Read 2578 times)