Grayscale finally announced the fee rate on their Bitcoin Mini Trust ETF: they are offering a very competitive 0.15% fee ratio.
The SEC filing also showed they seeded the funds with 63,204 Bitcoin.
This was is a huge amount, almost 10% of total funds. So I think they are going to “airdrop” this to their current customers.
Of course, this will act as a de facto fee reduction of almost 9%, as, of course, this switch event won’t be taxable.
So I guess the outflows from GBTC will go on in the future, but at least there will be a lesser outflow from broad Grayscale products.
Topic: Everything you wanted to know about Grayscale BTC Trust but were afraid to ask! (Read 16372 times)
April 21, 2024, 07:27:38 AM
March 27, 2024, 06:28:00 PM
Just wondering if we have just witnessed the last round of outflows from GBTC.
Now that presumedly Genesis has finished selling, I can't see why anyone else should do so: New buyers are focusing on IBIT and FBTC, instead of the legacy fund. We might be near the bottom in GBTC.
Now that presumedly Genesis has finished selling, I can't see why anyone else should do so: New buyers are focusing on IBIT and FBTC, instead of the legacy fund. We might be near the bottom in GBTC.
just witnessed? its the weekend, buys(to dissolve shares and outflow coin holdings) die down at weekends
..also it was US spring break and about to be other countries easter break.. so expect slowdown. even traders need a holiday
also GBTC buyers(to then request dissolving shares to move coin out to exchanges(outflows) to then move into other etf(inflows)) are not done by end user investor buyers of shares (meaning not done by your grandparents, your parents, your pension)
its actual 100% AP(brokers(agents/sponsors)).. emphasis, not your grandparents.. not end investors
Nice analysis, but I guess all the GBTC recent selling was about Genesys selling shares and using proceeds to buy BTC (sort of neutral market move).
The thing is that buying from IBIT and FBTC also slow down.
Wondering what is driving what. GBTC driving inflows or the other way around?
March 24, 2024, 08:53:44 PM
Just wondering if we have just witnessed the last round of outflows from GBTC.
Now that presumedly Genesis has finished selling, I can't see why anyone else should do so: New buyers are focusing on IBIT and FBTC, instead of the legacy fund. We might be near the bottom in GBTC.
Now that presumedly Genesis has finished selling, I can't see why anyone else should do so: New buyers are focusing on IBIT and FBTC, instead of the legacy fund. We might be near the bottom in GBTC.
just witnessed? its the weekend, buys(to dissolve shares and outflow coin holdings) die down at weekends
..also it was US spring break and about to be other countries easter break.. so expect slowdown. even traders need a holiday
also GBTC buyers(to then request dissolving shares to move coin out to exchanges(outflows) to then move into other etf(inflows)) are not done by end user investor buyers of shares (meaning not done by your grandparents, your parents, your pension)
its actual 100% AP(brokers(agents/sponsors)).. emphasis, not your grandparents.. not end investors
March 24, 2024, 07:58:54 PM
Just wondering if we have just witnessed the last round of outflows from GBTC.
Now that presumedly Genesis has finished selling, I can't see why anyone else should do so: New buyers are focusing on IBIT and FBTC, instead of the legacy fund. We might be near the bottom in GBTC.
Now that presumedly Genesis has finished selling, I can't see why anyone else should do so: New buyers are focusing on IBIT and FBTC, instead of the legacy fund. We might be near the bottom in GBTC.
March 22, 2024, 12:46:46 AM
@JayJuanGee. It makes it appear that the Ethereum promotions and marketing propaganda is very successful if they can make people think that every fee relating to the cryptospace can be called a gas fee hehehehe.
@franky1. Does that imply Grayscale will never lower their management fees? They would not have announced to lower it if they did not want it, I reckon.
@franky1. Does that imply Grayscale will never lower their management fees? They would not have announced to lower it if they did not want it, I reckon.
i reckon they will either:
get down to a safe hoard amount of GBTC(still have some grayscale owned coin locked) before lowering fee's of gbtc)
or
more savvi just get a 'mini' approved(if approved that is) and just empty GBTC and get brokers to basket up coin in the mini and let the GBTC die out
but their main game is to have high fee's to not have brokers in GBTC adding baskets(coin/shares).. because they want AP's trying to get current grayscale owned basket shares dissolved and converted into btc to sell off so grayscale can de-risk themselves of having a huge coin hoard in ownership
March 21, 2024, 10:15:54 PM
@JayJuanGee. It makes appear that the Ethereum promotions and marketing propaganda is very successful if they can make people think that every fee relating to the cryptospace can be called a gas fee hehehehe.
Gas fee is for EVM blockchains and it does not apply for Bitcoin blockchain and even Bitcoin forks Proof of Work.Recent weeks, I saw many posts on X platform with Ethereum Gas Fee Refund. Misleading scam posts like "I receive $x,xxx of gas fee refund from Ethereum" is very annoying.
I reported many posts in X Ads but X platform and their staffs didn't do anything to stop those scam Ads.
March 21, 2024, 09:47:43 PM
@JayJuanGee. It makes it appear that the Ethereum promotions and marketing propaganda is very successful if they can make people think that every fee relating to the cryptospace can be called a gas fee hehehehe.
@franky1. Does that imply Grayscale will never lower their management fees? They would not have announced to lower it if they did not want it, I reckon.
@franky1. Does that imply Grayscale will never lower their management fees? They would not have announced to lower it if they did not want it, I reckon.
March 21, 2024, 02:04:15 AM
grayscale want the outflows.. they want to remove their ownership of so much coin.. its a liability that can be taken by the courts in the bankruptcy litigations of DCG sister companies
grayscale then want to make a secondary ETF where they dont "own" the baskets, but instead just manage other brokers baskets
https://www.grayscale.com/blog/general-updates/what-is-grayscale-bitcoin-mini-trust
they want brokers to buy grayscale(dcg) owned coin of what was 630k in december 2023.. and move it out of grayscale gbtc ownership, and into other etf(eventually hope of grayscales non-self-coin owned etf offering of the 'mini'
and then the brokers own the coin and lock it into coinbase for coinbase(dcg sister) to manage and grayscale(dcg sister) to manage, without ownership by any DCG sister
grayscale then want to make a secondary ETF where they dont "own" the baskets, but instead just manage other brokers baskets
https://www.grayscale.com/blog/general-updates/what-is-grayscale-bitcoin-mini-trust
they want brokers to buy grayscale(dcg) owned coin of what was 630k in december 2023.. and move it out of grayscale gbtc ownership, and into other etf(eventually hope of grayscales non-self-coin owned etf offering of the 'mini'
and then the brokers own the coin and lock it into coinbase for coinbase(dcg sister) to manage and grayscale(dcg sister) to manage, without ownership by any DCG sister
March 20, 2024, 11:40:00 PM
@fillippone. I disagree. Losing your dominance will only let your competitors defeat you. If Grayscale does not lower their fees, these outflows will continue and give mayor Larry and grandma Cathie the advantage. However, it appears that Grayscale has lower fees on their roadmap. This presently might stop the outflows.
The market where Grayscale did not have big competitors against their investment products has clearly ended.
Grayscale CEO Michael Sonnenshein said the company expects to reduce fees on its GBTC Bitcoin ETF in the months ahead. The move likely comes as GBTC continues to witness outflows while other competitors such as BlackRock and Fidelity grab massive market share from Grayscale.
“I’ll happily confirm that, over time, as this market matures, the fees on GBTC will come down,” Sonnenshein told CNBC in an interview on March 18. He added that fees tend to be higher during the initial stages and gradually come down as the market matures and demand for the products rises.
Source https://coingape.com/gbtc-bitcoin-etf-fees-to-drop-soon-says-grayscale-ceo/
If Grayscale had any intentions of reducing those gas fees they are more than capable of doing them now so why wait till market gets matured while their competitors are very ready to take advantage of any mistake they make and if Im right then gas fees is what anyone would consider when investing in Grayscale GBTC or maybe since he intends to reduce gas fees later what is the plan or reason behind the high gas fees now ?The market where Grayscale did not have big competitors against their investment products has clearly ended.
Grayscale CEO Michael Sonnenshein said the company expects to reduce fees on its GBTC Bitcoin ETF in the months ahead. The move likely comes as GBTC continues to witness outflows while other competitors such as BlackRock and Fidelity grab massive market share from Grayscale.
“I’ll happily confirm that, over time, as this market matures, the fees on GBTC will come down,” Sonnenshein told CNBC in an interview on March 18. He added that fees tend to be higher during the initial stages and gradually come down as the market matures and demand for the products rises.
Source https://coingape.com/gbtc-bitcoin-etf-fees-to-drop-soon-says-grayscale-ceo/
Gas fees is a shitcoin term and fuck shitcoins.
Yeah, GBTC is not bitcoin, but still "gas fees" is not an appropriate term.
It is management fees, and they are likely realizing that their high management fees inspires some resentment that contributes towards the flight of so many of their coins.
March 20, 2024, 09:31:07 PM
@fillippone. I disagree. Losing your dominance will only let your competitors defeat you. If Grayscale does not lower their fees, these outflows will continue and give mayor Larry and grandma Cathie the advantage. However, it appears that Grayscale has lower fees on their roadmap. This presently might stop the outflows.
The market where Grayscale did not have big competitors against their investment products has clearly ended.
Grayscale CEO Michael Sonnenshein said the company expects to reduce fees on its GBTC Bitcoin ETF in the months ahead. The move likely comes as GBTC continues to witness outflows while other competitors such as BlackRock and Fidelity grab massive market share from Grayscale.
“I’ll happily confirm that, over time, as this market matures, the fees on GBTC will come down,” Sonnenshein told CNBC in an interview on March 18. He added that fees tend to be higher during the initial stages and gradually come down as the market matures and demand for the products rises.
Source https://coingape.com/gbtc-bitcoin-etf-fees-to-drop-soon-says-grayscale-ceo/
The market where Grayscale did not have big competitors against their investment products has clearly ended.
Grayscale CEO Michael Sonnenshein said the company expects to reduce fees on its GBTC Bitcoin ETF in the months ahead. The move likely comes as GBTC continues to witness outflows while other competitors such as BlackRock and Fidelity grab massive market share from Grayscale.
“I’ll happily confirm that, over time, as this market matures, the fees on GBTC will come down,” Sonnenshein told CNBC in an interview on March 18. He added that fees tend to be higher during the initial stages and gradually come down as the market matures and demand for the products rises.
Source https://coingape.com/gbtc-bitcoin-etf-fees-to-drop-soon-says-grayscale-ceo/
If Grayscale had any intentions of reducing those gas fees they are more than capable of doing them now so why wait till market gets matured while their competitors are very ready to take advantage of any mistake they make and if Im right then gas fees is what anyone would consider when investing in Grayscale GBTC or maybe since he intends to reduce gas fees later what is the plan or reason behind the high gas fees now ?
March 20, 2024, 08:51:59 PM
@fillippone. I disagree. Losing your dominance will only let your competitors defeat you. If Grayscale does not lower their fees, these outflows will continue and give mayor Larry and grandma Cathie the advantage. However, it appears that Grayscale has lower fees on their roadmap. This presently might stop the outflows.
The market where Grayscale did not have big competitors against their investment products has clearly ended.
Grayscale CEO Michael Sonnenshein said the company expects to reduce fees on its GBTC Bitcoin ETF in the months ahead. The move likely comes as GBTC continues to witness outflows while other competitors such as BlackRock and Fidelity grab massive market share from Grayscale.
“I’ll happily confirm that, over time, as this market matures, the fees on GBTC will come down,” Sonnenshein told CNBC in an interview on March 18. He added that fees tend to be higher during the initial stages and gradually come down as the market matures and demand for the products rises.
Source https://coingape.com/gbtc-bitcoin-etf-fees-to-drop-soon-says-grayscale-ceo/
The market where Grayscale did not have big competitors against their investment products has clearly ended.
Grayscale CEO Michael Sonnenshein said the company expects to reduce fees on its GBTC Bitcoin ETF in the months ahead. The move likely comes as GBTC continues to witness outflows while other competitors such as BlackRock and Fidelity grab massive market share from Grayscale.
“I’ll happily confirm that, over time, as this market matures, the fees on GBTC will come down,” Sonnenshein told CNBC in an interview on March 18. He added that fees tend to be higher during the initial stages and gradually come down as the market matures and demand for the products rises.
Source https://coingape.com/gbtc-bitcoin-etf-fees-to-drop-soon-says-grayscale-ceo/
March 11, 2024, 08:11:25 PM
LOL!
Of course, if you have outflows but the Bitcoin price keeps growing, in the end, your asset under management won't decrease, as the effect on price would offset that from the outflows.
Corollary: if the price increases, it would offset also the decrease in fees. Hence, Grayscale has little incentive to lower it.
Of course, if you have outflows but the Bitcoin price keeps growing, in the end, your asset under management won't decrease, as the effect on price would offset that from the outflows.
Corollary: if the price increases, it would offset also the decrease in fees. Hence, Grayscale has little incentive to lower it.
February 24, 2024, 06:17:30 AM
Flows in GBTC are abating. Yesterday, we had a record-low outflow in GBTC, with the usual turnover on the other instruments.
Spreads to NAV are closing, liquidity is improving and spreads from market makers are becoming tighter.
All this highlights the situation normalising around GBTC, and they are becoming less relevant as we go on.
This is true until Genesis decides to dump their bag, of course.
Spreads to NAV are closing, liquidity is improving and spreads from market makers are becoming tighter.
All this highlights the situation normalising around GBTC, and they are becoming less relevant as we go on.
This is true until Genesis decides to dump their bag, of course.
February 18, 2024, 06:33:34 AM
@franky1. However, the daisychain has ended already after the bankruptcy of FTX. Many founders have retired or were forced to leave their positions. The only original crypto rulers that are still running their exchanges and operations might be 2 only, Brian Armstrong and everyone's idol the announcer of announcements Justin Sun hehehehe.
In any case, Grayscale sent 4018 bitcoins to Coinbase according to some news articles. This might be the cause of the latest dump or this dump presently might only be the fear of the real dump.
In any case, Grayscale sent 4018 bitcoins to Coinbase according to some news articles. This might be the cause of the latest dump or this dump presently might only be the fear of the real dump.
the FTX related stuff was the "contagion"
this new buzzword "daisy-chain" appears to be another ordeal which silbert feels needs a new name
i guess its because its due to his company having so many sister companies playing in his backyard that the effects of one affect another and another and it comes round full circle like a necklace(daisy chain)
(satire analogy)
i can imagine silbert one day imagined his companies as daisys and imagined SEC gensler as the bully/crush.. so plucking at each daisy in his chain.. "he loves me, he loves me not, he loves me, he loves me not" when evaluating business risk of each company in DCG portfolio
as for grayscale. they are not sending coin to coinbase. they are releasing coin from coinbase.. literally every day
that said. last reports were of a 3394minus outflow
and 4018 is not much when talking about the scales they have. and the debts DCG have
~$200m (4018 at $50k) vs dcg $3b
4000btc is not even a quarter of their fee's for 2023 (grayscale earned like 16k coins in just fee's in 2023)
also worth noting. a $52k-$51k (2% change) is not a "dump", thats just daily opportunity
February 18, 2024, 02:23:39 AM
@franky1. However, the daisychain has ended already after the bankruptcy of FTX. Many founders have retired or were forced to leave their positions. The only original crypto rulers that are still running their exchanges and operations might be 2 only, Brian Armstrong and everyone's idol the announcer of announcements Justin Sun hehehehe.
In any case, Grayscale sent 4018 bitcoins to Coinbase according to some news articles. This might be the cause of the latest dump or this dump presently might only be the fear of the real dump.
In any case, Grayscale sent 4018 bitcoins to Coinbase according to some news articles. This might be the cause of the latest dump or this dump presently might only be the fear of the real dump.
February 16, 2024, 09:16:28 AM
It is very head scratching to witness this happen to Barry Silbert. I certainly thought he would be one of the founders that would be remaining in the cryptospace until he retires because of old age. It appears he was part of the daisy chain of lenders and borrowers that he mentioned on 2021.
Also, what was he implying when he tweeted to Sam Bankman Fried that it is his turn hehehee.
Also, what was he implying when he tweeted to Sam Bankman Fried that it is his turn hehehee.
both in criminal trouble
no surprise, with multiple cases involving DCG and its many sister companies.
before FTX got infamous DCG even had FTX listed on DCG portfolio.. so DCG invested directly with FTX
(from memory: i think it was about $250k direct equity investment of FTX in july 2021 + then offered $xxxm of loaned/collateral within FTX)
as for "daisy chain"... i guess the "contagion" is no longer trendy
February 16, 2024, 01:45:38 AM
It is very head scratching to witness this happen to Barry Silbert. I certainly thought he would be one of the founders that would be remaining in the cryptospace until he retires because of old age. It appears he was part of the daisy chain of lenders and borrowers that he mentioned on 2021. Also, what was he implying when he tweeted to Sam Bankman Fried that it is his turn hehehee.
February 13, 2024, 12:24:48 AM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/genesis-wins-dispute-with-gemini-over-ownership-of-grayscale-bitcoin-trust-shares-d035c006
so dcg/genesis lost $1.2b in january due to the genesis ftx fiasco. and now gained $1.2b in the genesis earn fiasco
but now owes an extra $2b (was 1 then $3b as reported by attourney general) in the genesis/gemini fiasco
31.2m shares at @0.00089309btc= 27,864btc now back in the control of DCG(via genesis sister), lets see how fast they dissolve the shares and cash out the coin.. after all genesis is in bankruptcy administration so cant hoard it and continue business
(sidenote. DCG had 36m shares(declared) pre ETF launch which sold off to pay FTX now they have sister company genesis with 31.2m shares(officially declared last week))
Quote
Genesis Global on Wednesday won a court ruling confirming its ownership of 31.2 million shares of Grayscale Bitcoin Trust
, a windfall for the bankrupt cryptocurrency lender’s creditors.
Crypto exchange Gemini Trust in October sued Genesis, its former business partner, over the shares, saying they were pledged as collateral on loans to Genesis from customers in Gemini’s Earn investment program. The shares are now worth more than $1.2 billion as the price of bitcoin, the fund’s underlying asset, has more than doubled since Genesis filed for bankruptcy.
, a windfall for the bankrupt cryptocurrency lender’s creditors.
Crypto exchange Gemini Trust in October sued Genesis, its former business partner, over the shares, saying they were pledged as collateral on loans to Genesis from customers in Gemini’s Earn investment program. The shares are now worth more than $1.2 billion as the price of bitcoin, the fund’s underlying asset, has more than doubled since Genesis filed for bankruptcy.
so dcg/genesis lost $1.2b in january due to the genesis ftx fiasco. and now gained $1.2b in the genesis earn fiasco
but now owes an extra $2b (was 1 then $3b as reported by attourney general) in the genesis/gemini fiasco
31.2m shares at @0.00089309btc= 27,864btc now back in the control of DCG(via genesis sister), lets see how fast they dissolve the shares and cash out the coin.. after all genesis is in bankruptcy administration so cant hoard it and continue business
(sidenote. DCG had 36m shares(declared) pre ETF launch which sold off to pay FTX now they have sister company genesis with 31.2m shares(officially declared last week))
February 12, 2024, 11:21:52 PM
@franky1. Bitcoin's new mayor, Larry should make an offer to Barry, DCG, Gemini and propose a rescue package to buy their 40,000 coins over the counter. Larry Fink and Blackrock would certainly have their cake and eat it too. They get more coins lower than the market price and the news of no dump would certainly bring more bullishness on the market.
February 12, 2024, 11:02:38 PM
doubt it would cause enough fud to make market go negative to FTX extremes, especially when news is already public and we seen btc top $50k.. we wont see a market bottom due to that AG announcement
all its doing is basically saying DCG will have to pay back $3b instead of $1b. so we will just see grayscale get rid of another $2b of assets (40,000btc)
all its doing is basically saying DCG will have to pay back $3b instead of $1b. so we will just see grayscale get rid of another $2b of assets (40,000btc)
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