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Topic: Exit strategy BTC cash out (or any other crypto) without pay capital gains taxes (Read 376 times)

legendary
Activity: 2828
Merit: 6108
Blackjack.fun
~

Given that the OP says that he is in the EU, and if we assume that his country is in the Schengen Area, then he can come on a nice vacation to the Adriatic Sea (maybe even pay for the vacation with BTC) and visit physical crypto exchanges where he can sell cryptocurrencies without KYC up to in the amount of 1000 EUR per transaction - and considering that there are more such branches, in a week he can go home with x0 000 EUR - problem solved (unless he does something stupid and buys a new car for cash or something similal - or the OP is a big fish who has at least a million EUR and our advice does not help him at all Cheesy)

To be honest I don't think that he either knows what he wants or that he knows why is seeking these solutions.
He is overcomplicating things, he wants to liquidate but not quite, he wants to exchange but he wants a stable coin, he...

The whole thing started simple, avoid capital taxes on your winnings, the solution is simple, do it in a way in which you leave nowhere your name and avoid being a peacock afterward with the money you've made. I assume he's from Italy, one trip as you said to the Adriatic or to the Visegard countries (Czech Republic and Poland mainly) and he has a hundred ATMs to choose from.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 5637
Blackjack.fun-Free Raffle-Join&Win $50🎲
~snip~
OP, just go for face2face deals as Lucius said, exchange 1000 euros here 1000 euros there and use them for daily life purchases, the whole stable coins thing is just an illusion of you managing to cover your tracks.

Given that the OP says that he is in the EU, and if we assume that his country is in the Schengen Area, then he can come on a nice vacation to the Adriatic Sea (maybe even pay for the vacation with BTC) and visit physical crypto exchanges where he can sell cryptocurrencies without KYC up to in the amount of 1000 EUR per transaction - and considering that there are more such branches, in a week he can go home with x0 000 EUR - problem solved (unless he does something stupid and buys a new car for cash or something similal - or the OP is a big fish who has at least a million EUR and our advice does not help him at all Cheesy)
legendary
Activity: 2828
Merit: 6108
Blackjack.fun
The fact that you want to convert BTC into stablecoins really doesn't make sense to me, because then what will you do with stablecoins?

I think his plan is something else, he wants to convert his BTC to USDT and other stable coins in secret and then claim for tax purposes that he has only stable coins, so when liquidating those he will not pay capital gains on it at all, he sells 1$ he bought with 1$ for 1$, in theory, tax-free. But of course, this theory doesn't hold water when it comes to the IRS or whatever it is called in that country, he will still have to make up a story on how he ended up with $100k tether he is liquidating and since he has no receipt for those as in buying with his own money...

OP, just go for face2face deals as Lucius said, exchange 1000 euros here 1000 euros there and use them for daily life purchases, the whole stable coins thing is just an illusion of you managing to cover your tracks.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 5637
Blackjack.fun-Free Raffle-Join&Win $50🎲
~snip~
I know so for this matter:
- Any safe, reliable and cheap no-KYC exchanges?
---
Technical and maybe so obvious questions but I'm not too expert on this. Any good suggetions (noob friendly)?


Of course, there are crypto exchanges that do not require KYC and are called decentralized exchanges, but the only way to remain anonymous on them is to sell BTC to someone live face to face - if the money from the sale will be paid to your bank account, then it will depend on the amount if the bank will react and ask where the money comes from, or it will automatically report it to the tax administration/financial police.

You want to be smarter than the system, but all the time you are going in the wrong direction and actually asking the wrong questions. If you want to sell cryptocurrencies and not pay taxes, find someone for a face-to-face transaction, buy virtual Visa cards and spend money online or add them to your mobile wallet and spend anywhere - or move to one of the countries you mentioned.

The fact that you want to convert BTC into stablecoins really doesn't make sense to me, because then what will you do with stablecoins?
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
Not paying tax won't be easy when your capital grows and you reside in a country where tax is required. If you just want to spend, then you can avoid tax. But if your capital and total assets keep increasing, then tax authorities will identify you and may ask about your income sources. You can trade on Dex without having to use a KYC exchange. But at the end of the day, you have to make it cash. So it will increase your total assets that would be considered for tax and that you would need to explain about your income source. 

You can exchange your BTC for a stablecoin, but what are you going to do with a stablecoin? Can't even buy groceries or buy a hamburger with it. And sure as hell can't buy a house or a decent car. But even if you'll manage to do so, it would attract the attention of IRS or a similar body and the first thing they will ask is where the money came from.

The only viable way is to exchange BTC for cash and make small spendings with it that don't require to tie your identity to it.

I know so for this matter:
- Any safe, reliable and cheap no-KYC exchanges?
- If we do the BTC->DAI exchange in DeFi, which is the best or recommended DEX?
- How to bring BTC safely to the DEX? on which chain? what bridge?
- Maybe the best is to bring BTC on ETH chain, maybe even better on a Layer 2? Optimism or Arbitrum? How to safely bring BTC on this chain?

Technical and maybe so obvious questions but I'm not too expert on this. Any good suggetions (noob friendly)?



I just wrote to you that you cannot do what Saylor is doing and that his company is much more than investing in Bitcoin. Unless you want to do something radical or maybe even illegal to avoid paying taxes, I suggest you pay 20% of the tax and enjoy the rest of the money. It would be nice to pay 5% or maybe even nothing, but let's be realistic, unless you have a lot of BTC that you want to sell, everything we have written so far is simply not worth it.

Ok but it is essential to have the knowledge to be able to choose the right path. Looking for solutions is always useful to anyone who has the same doubts as me.
For ex. now my doubts resides on the technical and practical part of how to exchange BTC -> stable, as I wrote above.
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1355
Where? El Salvador?

All over the EU, I believe.
For example, I can say for certain that some physical stores in Germany, Austria, Hungary, and the Czech Republic accept crypto directly on POS terminals. I have used them myself in a few of these countries, and I have heard similar reports from others.

Also, the Slovenian national grocery retail chain "Tuš" introduced crypto payments into its stores by integrating GoCrypto into its cash register since 2019, according to reports.
https://www.gocrypto.com/retail

Looks like Lucius beat me to the punch with Croatia! "Konzum", their national supermarket chain, also accepts cryptocurrency payments across all their local branches.

Quote
In our stores you can use 7 different cryptocurrencies - bitcoin (BTC), ether (ETH), bitcoin cash (BCH), EOS, stellar lumen (XLM), ripple (XRP), NEAR.

While in the webshop you can use 13 different cryptocurrencies when paying – bitcoin (BTC), ether (ETH), bitcoin cash (BCH), EOS, DAI, ripple (XRP), stellar lumen (XLM), tether (USDT), USDC, Solana and BUSD (BEP20), kitecoin (LTC) and dogecoin (DOGE).
https://www.konzum.hr/nacini-placanja
legendary
Activity: 3136
Merit: 1233
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
As noted above, ideas 1 and 2 do not exempt you from the obligation to pay, meaning that you would be committing a crime or misdemeanor, depending on the jurisdiction in which you are located and the amounts involved.

As for 3 it also has its drawbacks, and it is not worth doing it for small amounts.

The one I missed in the list is the one popularized by Saylor "borrow against your Bitcoin" and never sell it. If you have enough holdings, you can take a pledged loan for 1% of what you sell and if the price goes up you can keep refinancing, the loan goes down on its own. If it goes down to avoid a margin call you can put in a little more Bitcoin.

Right. Saylor's idea of borrowing against your Bitcoin is gaining popularity. You can use your Bitcoin as collateral to get a loan without selling it and triggering taxes. If Bitcoin's value goes up, you can refinance or pay off the loan, and if it goes down, you can add more Bitcoin to avoid issues. But it's important to manage risks, consider interest rates and understand loan terms. Make sure to consult financial experts who know about crypto lending and taxes before diving in

First time I am hearing about this and looks like the perfect way to invest your Bitcoin without paying taxes.If financial institutions will lend us money and accept Bitcoin as collateral that can open new ways to investing,people who have quite some Bitcoins,like 10 or more in their inventory can use that as a big collateral to lend some good money to invest in real estate first.Meanwhile they can continue their Bitcoin activity,the way how they have made the Bitcoin-s so far,usually with mining most of those who have a lot or some very few of them with trading.This can be going and going and would be a great way to avoid taxes while making money from the real estate you get,in real estate though you can't avoid taxes no matter where you are  Grin.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 5637
Blackjack.fun-Free Raffle-Join&Win $50🎲
Where? El Salvador?
I know there are some places like bitrefil where you can get some gift cards for supermarkets.


El Salvador is an over-hyped story, because I've watched dozens of videos from that country where people try to pay with Bitcoin and the sellers look at them in amazement because they don't know what it's all about. Bitcoin as a legal tender in a country where 70% of the population is practically offline or does not have a bank account is just an interesting story and nothing more.

In the EU, there are many interesting stories about how Bitcoin (as well as other cryptocurrencies) found their way into local economies, but that's not really interesting, is it?

Here, for example, everything you see on these two websites can be ordered and paid for with cryptocurrencies, and is located in one EU member state Wink

Link1
Link2



I really don't understand that. Saylor, what app?
How can I do what you say in practice?


I just wrote to you that you cannot do what Saylor is doing and that his company is much more than investing in Bitcoin. Unless you want to do something radical or maybe even illegal to avoid paying taxes, I suggest you pay 20% of the tax and enjoy the rest of the money. It would be nice to pay 5% or maybe even nothing, but let's be realistic, unless you have a lot of BTC that you want to sell, everything we have written so far is simply not worth it.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 5622
Non-custodial BTC Wallet
Nobody can go to a supermarket and spend USDT. We are not there yet, and probably never will be.

I think that actually depends on where you live.  Believe it or not, you can really buy groceries at some supermarkets and pay with crypto in some parts of the world!  Wink


Where? El Salvador?

I know there are some places like bitrefil where you can get some gift cards for supermarkets.
legendary
Activity: 2954
Merit: 2145
You can exchange your BTC for a stablecoin, but what are you going to do with a stablecoin? Can't even buy groceries or buy a hamburger with it. And sure as hell can't buy a house or a decent car. But even if you'll manage to do so, it would attract the attention of IRS or a similar body and the first thing they will ask is where the money came from.

The only viable way is to exchange BTC for cash and make small spendings with it that don't require to tie your identity to it.
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1355
Nobody can go to a supermarket and spend USDT. We are not there yet, and probably never will be.

I think that actually depends on where you live.  Believe it or not, you can really buy groceries at some supermarkets and pay with crypto in some parts of the world!  Wink
legendary
Activity: 2240
Merit: 2174
Need PR/CMC & CG? TG @The_Cryptovator
Not paying tax won't be easy when your capital grows and you reside in a country where tax is required. If you just want to spend, then you can avoid tax. But if your capital and total assets keep increasing, then tax authorities will identify you and may ask about your income sources. You can trade on Dex without having to use a KYC exchange. But at the end of the day, you have to make it cash. So it will increase your total assets that would be considered for tax and that you would need to explain about your income source. 
legendary
Activity: 2828
Merit: 6108
Blackjack.fun
Simple strategy: Move to a country like Montenegro or El Salvador for 9-10 months and establish tax residency there.
~snip~

I personally would not go to countries where the security situation is not the best, and Montenegro is certainly one of those countries, considering that it is an extremely divided country with great national tensions that can escalate into civil war at any moment. As for El Salvador, regardless of the fact that Bukele allegedly cleaned the country of gangs, you still need to be careful and choose safer (more expensive) places that are not as cheap as some people think.

You can dodge the 180 days mandatory stay in Montenegro by registering a company there and providing proof it's your only one, pretty easy to do since you won't be running any other company in this case and that's it, you can get out of the country the next day take the crypto profits, and if you want to get rid of all the taxes owned in Montenegro for your company then with a bit of accounting I'm not going to recommend to anyone just ...hmm, bankrupt the said company to ..another one and I'll stop here. Nobody will come after you but it would still be not fully legal if I might word it this way.

As for selling BTC without paying tax, there are some physical exchanges in some EU countries where you can sell (for now) around EUR 1000 worth of crypto per transaction, and theoretically if you visit several such branches in one day, you could quite legally sell crypto in worth several thousand EUR. Consider that the fee for such a service is about 5% or more.

So, just to make sure, we're talking about dodging taxes and avoiding them here, not  tax "optimization", right?
Cause you can exchange your coins for fiat without the tax department knowing about it, but the moment you buy a 500 000 euros house with a  600 euros wage in the last 10 years all that has been for nothing. Plus, with the rules on limits for cash-only fiat payments in the EU you'll have again trouble spending huge amounts as each bank will ask you where you got that cash.


Right. Saylor's idea of borrowing against your Bitcoin is gaining popularity. You can use your Bitcoin as collateral to get a loan without selling it and triggering taxes. If Bitcoin's value goes up, you can refinance or pay off the loan, and if it goes down, you can add more Bitcoin to avoid issues.

Yeah, unless you run out of it, Luna and Celsius style!
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
But how can we do this in an affordable way?
And how can we learn how to use this method and all his upsides and downsides?


Saylor has a company that deals with various things, among other things, developing apps for Bitcoin and simply transfers all excess profits to Bitcoin - you as an individual cannot do what he does. In other words, you want to outsmart the system so that you don't sell Bitcoin, but at the same time you profit from it - or you sell Bitcoin, but you don't pay tax, or you pay much less than the 20% that it amounts to in your case.

I really don't understand that. Saylor, what app?
How can I do what you say in practice?

I found this nexo card that maybe do exactly that:

I've heard about it, but I don't know if that model has a sustainable business strategy. However, the idea that you should give your BTC to someone in order to be able to get loans is actually very problematic at its core - because you are not the owner of the BTC, and the company you entrusted them to can disappear at any moment and you are left with nothing. They have their own ANN thread on the forum, but the last post was in 2022.

Yeah I know you have to trust some entity but don't you have to do it even with the Saylor's idea or app, idk
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 5637
Blackjack.fun-Free Raffle-Join&Win $50🎲
But how can we do this in an affordable way?
And how can we learn how to use this method and all his upsides and downsides?


Saylor has a company that deals with various things, among other things, developing apps for Bitcoin and simply transfers all excess profits to Bitcoin - you as an individual cannot do what he does. In other words, you want to outsmart the system so that you don't sell Bitcoin, but at the same time you profit from it - or you sell Bitcoin, but you don't pay tax, or you pay much less than the 20% that it amounts to in your case.

I found this nexo card that maybe do exactly that:

I've heard about it, but I don't know if that model has a sustainable business strategy. However, the idea that you should give your BTC to someone in order to be able to get loans is actually very problematic at its core - because you are not the owner of the BTC, and the company you entrusted them to can disappear at any moment and you are left with nothing. They have their own ANN thread on the forum, but the last post was in 2022.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
As noted above, ideas 1 and 2 do not exempt you from the obligation to pay, meaning that you would be committing a crime or misdemeanor, depending on the jurisdiction in which you are located and the amounts involved.

As for 3 it also has its drawbacks, and it is not worth doing it for small amounts.

The one I missed in the list is the one popularized by Saylor "borrow against your Bitcoin" and never sell it. If you have enough holdings, you can take a pledged loan for 1% of what you sell and if the price goes up you can keep refinancing, the loan goes down on its own. If it goes down to avoid a margin call you can put in a little more Bitcoin.

Right. Saylor's idea of borrowing against your Bitcoin is gaining popularity. You can use your Bitcoin as collateral to get a loan without selling it and triggering taxes. If Bitcoin's value goes up, you can refinance or pay off the loan, and if it goes down, you can add more Bitcoin to avoid issues. But it's important to manage risks, consider interest rates and understand loan terms. Make sure to consult financial experts who know about crypto lending and taxes before diving in

But how can we do this in an affordable way?
And how can we learn how to use this method and all his upsides and downsides?

I found this nexo card that maybe do exactly that:

Quote
Spend without Selling Your Crypto
With Nexo, your deposited crypto instantly becomes backup for your credit line. The more you deposit, the more you can borrow against.

You Keep Your Crypto
Even as you make card purchases, your crypto won't be sold, thus retaining its upside potential.

Get Up to 2% Cashback + Interest
Get crypto cashback when you spend. You'll also be earning interest on assets not used as backup.

Credit Line Starting from 0% Interest
Credit Mode offers you rates starting from 0% and never exceeding 15.9% p.a. You can also repay at any time, unlike traditional credit cards that require you to deposit funds every month.
Nexo’s zero-cost credit is available to eligible Nexo clients who maintain an LTV of 20% or below.

Optimize Your Tax Liabilities
Credit Mode allows you to spend without selling your crypto, which doesn't trigger a taxable event.

They also said about the tax liabilities so  Wink
Can be a viable solution?
But again: how can we properly use this method? When btc goes up and goes down? Can we use even DAI or USDT or USDC to use it as collateral? If anyone knows and already use this can teach us about it
full member
Activity: 1120
Merit: 158
★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
As noted above, ideas 1 and 2 do not exempt you from the obligation to pay, meaning that you would be committing a crime or misdemeanor, depending on the jurisdiction in which you are located and the amounts involved.

As for 3 it also has its drawbacks, and it is not worth doing it for small amounts.

The one I missed in the list is the one popularized by Saylor "borrow against your Bitcoin" and never sell it. If you have enough holdings, you can take a pledged loan for 1% of what you sell and if the price goes up you can keep refinancing, the loan goes down on its own. If it goes down to avoid a margin call you can put in a little more Bitcoin.

Right. Saylor's idea of borrowing against your Bitcoin is gaining popularity. You can use your Bitcoin as collateral to get a loan without selling it and triggering taxes. If Bitcoin's value goes up, you can refinance or pay off the loan, and if it goes down, you can add more Bitcoin to avoid issues. But it's important to manage risks, consider interest rates and understand loan terms. Make sure to consult financial experts who know about crypto lending and taxes before diving in
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 5637
Blackjack.fun-Free Raffle-Join&Win $50🎲
~snip~
-Otherwise, you should know that in Europe, if you spend crypto with a crypto card, no matter if it is a stablecoin or not, you will need to pay taxes (at least in 99% of EU countries). As your CEX will do the exchange crypto/fiat for you when you will use your card.

This applies to physical cards that are subject to KYC, but not to virtual cards that you can make as many as you want, pay with them online or add them to Google/Apple Pay and pay contactless at any place where cards and contactless payment methods are accepted.

There are also "anonymous" physical cards (one member has been selling them on the forum for a long time), but this service costs quite a bit and you have to be prepared to use a card issued in someone else's name in another country.

I also recently saw a topic about a virtual/physical card that seems to have been issued in Hong Kong, and somehow I doubt that anyone in the EU could so easily get information about a person using such a card (although I may be wrong).



~snip~
Switzerland, Portugal and Germany are all more convinient for me. Even in a country like Germany, for example, you don't have to pay anything if you cash out crypto detained for more than a year and I think this is a very democratic and fair law.


You have other options if it's the EU, in Croatia you don't pay tax for 2 years after purchase, otherwise the tax is 10%, and I think Slovenia also has favorable laws when it comes to cryptocurrencies. Of course, it's a matter of which country you prefer, whether it's language, culture or maybe climate. If you ask me, Switzerland is perhaps the best choice because of its level of democracy and neutrality.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 5
Going to a country that has zero taxation with your crypto gains is going to be costly unless you have a lot of profits that shall be taken on that country. But wouldn't you be questioned when you're about to get out from there and you'd start to bring that money with you or you'd just wire transfer that from there to your local bank account? But if it's about changing your residence, are you sure that you'd be willing to go that with extra mile and you've got a lot of requirements to fulfill with it unless you go in a country that will just want you to invest or buy some real estate that will cost you $100k-$500k and more. That means that you'd be having millions of crypto gains for that particular country so that you won't be required or else, you've got some relatives there and they shall be the one to take you up there and that will be cost effective and lesser once you migrate there and have that permanent residency. So, if you have no relatives that are willing to help you, isn't it that it's just best to pay the taxes to remove the hassle and there's no need for you to drop that amount for that country to be considered with their residency visa? But hey, it's a property to another country and that's still going to make sense as another investment, right?

As I said is a desperate idea but someone is using this and I was wondering if there is any chance to be effective but I know it has downsides and maybe even quite impossibile.

Idea 2 is my to go exit strategy but then there's taxes and I think that with your options of ideas that you've presented, it's probably a good assumption that you don't want to pay your taxes or you're evading some people in your life and you don't want them to know that you're going to make money in crypto or maybe even know how you made it. Idea 3 is a little too much unless it's a necessary thing to do, unless there's a threat to your life or you're being chased or will be chased as a fugitive, that's going to be your option. I don't think there's a lot of countries that would have what you're looking for when it comes to no taxation, if you want to pursue the third idea, you're gonna need to love the sun because most of them are probably tropical countries that make money on tourism to sustain their no taxation policies in some parts of living in their country.
As noted above, ideas 1 and 2 do not exempt you from the obligation to pay, meaning that you would be committing a crime or misdemeanor, depending on the jurisdiction in which you are located and the amounts involved.

Well I'm now talking about reasons here, I was just asking and presenting ideas to see if there is any feasibility and above all how to implement it.
As I said previously, there are country where not all cryto related is taxable so lets assume this for now: trading BTC -> DAI is not taxable so can this be used to our advantage ??

- About "any safe no KYC swap/exchange" and your question about how BTC to DAI can be done, I would advise you to use eXch, as it's without KYC, without account to create and no logs. Reliable since 2014.
You could use Changenow.io too for example, but it is less safe IMO as they operate AML verifications, and shared information with some gov agencies in the past IIRC.

-DAI is reliable as a stable coin IMO, at least it is the best (even if unperfected) stablecoin available for now. Cannot be frozen or seized in your wallet like USDT or USDC.

-For the crypto card, Wirex is cool (low fees) but KYC is mandatory. ID + POA.

-Otherwise, you should know that in Europe, if you spend crypto with a crypto card, no matter if it is a stablecoin or not, you will need to pay taxes (at least in 99% of EU countries). As your CEX will do the exchange crypto/fiat for you when you will use your card.

Thanks for all your suggestions. This is precisely what I was trying to achieve by presenting ideas and doubts  Smiley
So anymore suggestions? pratical one too. For example: how that exchange works? how can I bring BTC on the exchange? or maybe doing all on a decentralized exchange? how? safest one?


The one I missed in the list is the one popularized by Saylor "borrow against your Bitcoin" and never sell it. If you have enough holdings, you can take a pledged loan for 1% of what you sell and if the price goes up you can keep refinancing, the loan goes down on its own. If it goes down to avoid a margin call you can put in a little more Bitcoin.

That was another possibile solution I found using a cypto card that do just that but I don't know much about it. Can you explain more your concept? how can that be achieved?
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 2017
As noted above, ideas 1 and 2 do not exempt you from the obligation to pay, meaning that you would be committing a crime or misdemeanor, depending on the jurisdiction in which you are located and the amounts involved.

As for 3 it also has its drawbacks, and it is not worth doing it for small amounts.

The one I missed in the list is the one popularized by Saylor "borrow against your Bitcoin" and never sell it. If you have enough holdings, you can take a pledged loan for 1% of what you sell and if the price goes up you can keep refinancing, the loan goes down on its own. If it goes down to avoid a margin call you can put in a little more Bitcoin.
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