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Topic: . - page 16. (Read 24756 times)

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
February 07, 2016, 10:27:30 AM
Gavin constantly change his proposal based on community feed back

Gavin is ignoring feedback from miners and others who told him 75% is far too low for a safe hard fork.1

Gavin is ignoring feedback from everyone who told him 28 days is not long enough to give the ecosystem time to adapt with minimum disruption.2

Like Gavin, you constantly lie about having the support of The Community®.3

Citations:

1.  http://organofcorti.blogspot.com/2015/08/bip101-implementation-flaws.html

2.  http://bitcoinocracy.com/arguments/decided

3.  https://twitter.com/barrysilbert/status/694911989701861376


But please, by all means continue.  You are welcome to die on the 2MB hill, sacrificing your reputation for Classic just like Hearn and Frap.doc did for XT.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
February 07, 2016, 10:15:33 AM
How are they going to make money from Sidechains? 
Isn't that open source too?

I think Bitcoin transaction processing may be a much more
obvious and in demand market than sidechains.
The 'elements' of which Liquid is made of are open source, but Liquid itself isn't (IIRC). It should be easy to set up a model where they provide technical support for Liquid and get paid constantly in return (in addition to licensing fees).

ps - personal incredulity?  what now?   Huh Huh
It's a fallacy.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
February 07, 2016, 09:28:50 AM
What do you think are the other developers since only 1 (paid) is working on LN? Another case of personal incredulity.


No, they have drafted in another US Gov/Google "consultant" who is changing the way LN works to make it easier for survellance security via USG-TOR

(I enjoyed that.  Cool)

ps - personal incredulity?  what now?   Huh Huh
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
February 07, 2016, 09:22:58 AM

Their main source of revenue are supposed to be sidechains (IMO)

How are they going to make money from Sidechains? 

Isn't that open source too?

I think Bitcoin transaction processing may be a much more
obvious and in demand market than sidechains.

legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
February 07, 2016, 09:03:18 AM
After that, the plan is to build other layers on top such as LN hubs,
of which blockstream will run one or more... and collect revenue, as well as
build hubs for other companies and collect even more revenue.  

(They will claim its all 'open source' make it as complicated and obfuscated as possible
to create a barrier to entry.)
There is no logic behind this statement because: 1) LN is Open Source; anyone can develop a version of it; 2) Anyone can run Hubs.
Their main source of revenue are supposed to be sidechains (IMO); LN has nothing to do with that. What do you think are the other developers since only 1 (paid) is working on LN? Another case of personal incredulity.


Update:
Quote
There are multiple implementations of the Lightning Network, the most advanced ones are:
Joseph, Tadge and roasbeef's version: https://github.com/LightningNetwork/lnd/  
Rusty'sversion (Blockstream): https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
February 07, 2016, 08:53:04 AM
not so against any kind of increase in the max block size
The Bitcoin Core capacity roadmap includes several block size increases, including the immediate term segwit proposal that many people are actively working on (and which has a testnet)-- which increases the capacity to fairly close to Gavin's latest proposal (which is not BIP 102).

'immediate term' , no one knows what that means exactly.  3 months? 6 months? 18 months?  
This would be more immediate, simpler, and arguably more robust and less risky. What does core have against it?

The community has been screaming for bigger blocks.  If core won't accept Gavin's proposal, it means
one of three things:

1.  They don't care what the community wants (despite their pleas for consensus).  
2. They think they know what is best and are too stubborn to accept anyone else's priorities.
3. They have an alterior motives.

Could be a combination of all the above.



Mr. G. Maxwell is a key developer on Core in addition to being a founder of Blockstream.
What do you think is his agenda?

Its becoming more clear.

His agenda is to make Bitcoin a settlement layer, which is why he refuses to
agree to a blocksize increase and will try to attack any ideas suggesting one.

After that, the plan is to build other layers on top such as LN hubs,
of which blockstream will run one or more... and collect revenue, as well as
build hubs for other companies and collect even more revenue.  

(They will claim its all 'open source' make it as complicated and obfuscated as possible
to create a barrier to entry.)

Something like that.

That makes as much sense as anything.  I'm not clear on it 100%, but
what I'm nearly 100% sure of, is that they have some plan to
collect revenue.  You don't raise $76M in venture capital without one.  You just don't.

So if what I said isn't it, then I challenge anyone to bring a more
logical explanation.

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
February 07, 2016, 07:02:19 AM
This is strange answer coming from a bitcointalk.org staff member. But you are the same person that said Satoshi's vision is irrelevant? Funny how well now I can remember you and your ways.
Should I call you 'names' for quoting me out of context; albeit you'd come crying with "ad hominem"? It is obvious why you are doing this though and you intelligence is "astounding". Look at all those logical fallacies.

Strange indeed... the same people that cry most loudly against 'contentious hard forks' are the ones that seem to be against implementing a simple 2MB increase right now that would make the forking threat disappear.
It is not strange; you guys are making yourself obvious. Let me try this one more time:
Really...is that so?
Then what is it a Monarchy or Totalitarianism? Huh
It could function better depending on who's leading, albeit it is neither one of those.

Segwit?
When I joined bitcoin there was and still is no segwit, nor am I interested in reversible transactions with a possible and yet unknown risk of backdoor attacks.
This makes no sense.

what exactly about Blockstream is it -- specifically -- that has made people turn so vociferously on Core devs that have tirelessly worked for years to make bitcoin what it is?
'Forkers' are mad that their idea is irrational, and thus Blockstream must be evil and blocking consensus.

Is it April already? I must have overslept.
Good luck gaining consensus (albeit 75% isn't consensus) for the HF before April. I'll push veto myself.

Lauda, do you ever get tired of fighting with everyone? Do you ever consider - for even a second - that you may not be 100% correct in your views?

Quote
I'll push veto myself

You do that Lauda.  You veto all you like while Bitcoin is sold out to the interests of Bankers over the users themselves. The very bankers it was conceived to circumvent.

You are just a cheap sell out.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
February 07, 2016, 05:15:05 AM
This is strange answer coming from a bitcointalk.org staff member. But you are the same person that said Satoshi's vision is irrelevant? Funny how well now I can remember you and your ways.
Should I call you 'names' for quoting me out of context; albeit you'd come crying with "ad hominem"? It is obvious why you are doing this though and you intelligence is "astounding". Look at all those logical fallacies.

Strange indeed... the same people that cry most loudly against 'contentious hard forks' are the ones that seem to be against implementing a simple 2MB increase right now that would make the forking threat disappear.
It is not strange; you guys are making yourself obvious. Let me try this one more time:
Really...is that so?
Then what is it a Monarchy or Totalitarianism? Huh
It could function better depending on who's leading, albeit it is neither one of those.

Segwit?
When I joined bitcoin there was and still is no segwit, nor am I interested in reversible transactions with a possible and yet unknown risk of backdoor attacks.
This makes no sense.

what exactly about Blockstream is it -- specifically -- that has made people turn so vociferously on Core devs that have tirelessly worked for years to make bitcoin what it is?
'Forkers' are mad that their idea is irrational, and thus Blockstream must be evil and blocking consensus.

Is it April already? I must have overslept.
Good luck gaining consensus (albeit 75% isn't consensus) for the HF before April. I'll push veto myself.
hero member
Activity: 534
Merit: 500
February 07, 2016, 04:53:08 AM
I just made it to page 3 of this thread and I have also been reading the thread:
Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/wondering-out-loud-which-should-chinese-miners-support-core-classic-or-another-1343716

Even though the bitcoin atmosphere feels like there may be an impending collapse if certain issues aren't addressed, I really don't believe that gmaxwell would destroy his own investment in any way so perhaps you are a genuine person.

However, if Gavin is the "bad" guy in all this, why hasn't he given up already?
Is he that dogged in his determination?
Is he the Terminator?  Grin
He absolutely will not stop until Bitcoin is his! Grin
It is strange...if he honestly believes that Core will destroy Bitcoin, why not create his own currency, why the great need to wrestle control from Core?

Either way, I really don't care which way Bitcoin goes!
I don't believe that either party is attempting to destroy Bitcoin. I think they simply have different ideologies about the direction Bitcoin should follow.

Each party simply has their own theory that their chosen Bitcoin model will scale better, while the other party denounces them. Either way, no group can truly prove the other wrong, however one group must be victorious.

May the best team win!
hero member
Activity: 534
Merit: 500
February 07, 2016, 03:56:18 AM

We decided, it should be done like this, because we are the expert and you should listen to us and respect our hard work. This is not a way to reach consensus in a community full of paranoid conspiracists  Grin  It's exactly this kind of people most attracted by bitcoin because they trust nobody by default
The majority is wrong in the most cases. Should we let the majority decide these things? Bitcoin is not a democracy either.


Really...is that so?
Then what is it a Monarchy or Totalitarianism? Huh
hero member
Activity: 534
Merit: 500
February 07, 2016, 03:47:33 AM
@figmentofmyass on Today at 08:08:55 AM

Please read this nice post that I quoted as I nor you have any idea who is truly speaking the truth and who is the charlatan.

Either one of them has an agenda or both or neither.
So who to follow? Huh


Nice summary, but maybe you noticed that Gavin constantly change his proposal based on community feed back, which proved to be a much more efficient way of gaining support. Blockstream give me a feeling like: We decided, it should be done like this, because we are the expert and you should listen to us and respect our hard work. This is not a way to reach consensus in a community full of paranoid conspiracists  Grin  It's exactly this kind of people most attracted by bitcoin because they trust nobody by default
hero member
Activity: 534
Merit: 500
February 07, 2016, 03:36:58 AM

I'm hoping we get to the point where the market realizes it's being toyed with here and repeated XT reloaded attempts are pretty meaningless. We're not seemingly there yet.

Have I basically summarized the last year? Anyone want to add any bullets?


Well thanks for that explanation and I couldn't agree with you more.
The problem is that I have unbiasedly read Mike, Gavin and now your explanation and everyone comes off like a freaking Saint.

My above posts were responses while reading the first 2 pages of this thread. So don't blame me if I jumped the gun...you don't expect me to read 19 pages before making a single comment, do you? Grin
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
February 07, 2016, 03:33:47 AM

what do you think it is? i see so much of this insinuation that he (and others) have these nefarious intentions, but it seems no one can spell out what they are, and how it's going to work. just how is Blockstream causing such massive conflicts of interest? where does the money come in? the VC numbers i've heard thrown around are tiny and meaningless. what exactly about Blockstream is it -- specifically -- that has made people turn so vociferously on Core devs that have tirelessly worked for years to make bitcoin what it is?

Amount of money lost if Gavin Andresen receives rejected proposals = -$
Amount of money lost if Gregory Maxwell receives rejected proposals = -$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Who sounds like they have more to lose?
Who sounds like the genuine person now?


what proof do you have that Gavin Andresen isn't being paid to promote his fork? he is under no obligations (other than moral ones) to disclose to the community whose payroll he is on. why do you just assume that he is just some altruistic hero, when all he has done for the past year is try to take control of bitcoin's repository via two hard forks?

i think it's quite suspicious that Gavin said 2mb was "absurdly small" when attempting previously to remove Core's commit access with his XT fork.... and NOW is pushing for a 2mb hard fork to remove Core's commit access. never mind that Seg Wit nearly matches the capacity increase -- or better...

what proof do you have that "money is being lost if Gregory Maxwell receives rejected proposals?" what money? what is the business plan? what is the conflict of interest? spell it out for me, please.

hero member
Activity: 534
Merit: 500
February 07, 2016, 03:16:06 AM

what do you think it is? i see so much of this insinuation that he (and others) have these nefarious intentions, but it seems no one can spell out what they are, and how it's going to work. just how is Blockstream causing such massive conflicts of interest? where does the money come in? the VC numbers i've heard thrown around are tiny and meaningless. what exactly about Blockstream is it -- specifically -- that has made people turn so vociferously on Core devs that have tirelessly worked for years to make bitcoin what it is?

Amount of money lost if Gavin Andresen receives rejected proposals = -$
Amount of money lost if Gregory Maxwell receives rejected proposals = -$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Who sounds like they have more to lose?
Who sounds like the genuine person now?
hero member
Activity: 534
Merit: 500
February 07, 2016, 03:10:44 AM
Another power grab from a desperate developer that might just work, if he play the fiddle in the right manner. The trolls with the limited knowledge will jump onto this proposal without considering the possible consequences. We are driving around with a bus that are 50% to capacity and we are already calling for a double decker replacement.

The Core developers have put a lot of thought into SegWit and scaling for the future and loads of other advantages and we just want to take the first proposal, because we were told the 2 MB Block size increase would be the Nirvana.  



If your bus is 50% full, you already know that pretty soon it's going to be full. The smart thing to do is prepare for future expansion.

Segwit?
When I joined bitcoin there was and still is no segwit, nor am I interested in reversible transactions with a possible and yet unknown risk of backdoor attacks.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
February 07, 2016, 03:08:55 AM
not so against any kind of increase in the max block size
The Bitcoin Core capacity roadmap includes several block size increases, including the immediate term segwit proposal that many people are actively working on (and which has a testnet)-- which increases the capacity to fairly close to Gavin's latest proposal (which is not BIP 102).

'immediate term' , no one knows what that means exactly.  3 months? 6 months? 18 months? 
This would be more immediate, simpler, and arguably more robust and less risky. What does core have against it?

The community has been screaming for bigger blocks.  If core won't accept Gavin's proposal, it means
one of three things:

1.  They don't care what the community wants (despite their pleas for consensus). 
2. They think they know what is best and are too stubborn to accept anyone else's priorities.
3. They have an alterior motives.

Could be a combination of all the above.



Mr. G. Maxwell is a key developer on Core in addition to being a founder of Blockstream.
What do you think is his agenda?

what do you think it is? i see so much of this insinuation that he (and others) have these nefarious intentions, but it seems no one can spell out what they are, and how it's going to work. just how is Blockstream causing such massive conflicts of interest? where does the money come in? the VC numbers i've heard thrown around are tiny and meaningless. what exactly about Blockstream is it -- specifically -- that has made people turn so vociferously on Core devs that have tirelessly worked for years to make bitcoin what it is?
hero member
Activity: 534
Merit: 500
February 07, 2016, 03:06:01 AM
Gavin Andresen = Coinbase= Bitstamp = Okcoin= Marc Andreessen= Andreessen Horowitz & Co. Smiley

Gavin Andresen = Coinbase = Bitstamp
Gregory Maxwell = Blockstream = Liquid  Tongue
hero member
Activity: 534
Merit: 500
February 07, 2016, 03:03:19 AM
not so against any kind of increase in the max block size
The Bitcoin Core capacity roadmap includes several block size increases, including the immediate term segwit proposal that many people are actively working on (and which has a testnet)-- which increases the capacity to fairly close to Gavin's latest proposal (which is not BIP 102).

'immediate term' , no one knows what that means exactly.  3 months? 6 months? 18 months? 
This would be more immediate, simpler, and arguably more robust and less risky. What does core have against it?

The community has been screaming for bigger blocks.  If core won't accept Gavin's proposal, it means
one of three things:

1.  They don't care what the community wants (despite their pleas for consensus). 
2. They think they know what is best and are too stubborn to accept anyone else's priorities.
3. They have an alterior motives.

Could be a combination of all the above.



Mr. G. Maxwell is a key developer on Core in addition to being a founder of Blockstream.
What do you think is his agenda?
hero member
Activity: 534
Merit: 500
February 07, 2016, 02:58:39 AM
not so against any kind of increase in the max block size
The Bitcoin Core capacity roadmap includes several block size increases, including the immediate term segwit proposal that many people are actively working on (and which has a testnet)-- which increases the capacity to fairly close to Gavin's latest proposal (which is not BIP 102).

Your words are meaningless...you have already been bought and sold! Roll Eyes
https://medium.com/@octskyward/on-block-sizes-e047bc9f830#.v9slxajwd
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
February 07, 2016, 02:22:17 AM
yep 2mb rule allows real capacity buffer increase, ready for when miners are ready to expand


The 2mb rule would also be trivial to back-port for people who want to run older versions but still maintain consensus but not be running a crippled node.
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