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teflone

hero member

Activity: 770

Merit: 500

You're fat, because you dont have any pics on FB

Quote from: indio007 on August 25, 2011, 01:57:03 PM

I don't think it would be enforceble even then. Maybe against their parents but that's it.

Problem really is these amounts are so small they need to be in small claims court.
I don't picture anyone spending $300 on a plane ticket to file a small claim of $50.

That's why I brought up selling debts. Then people can buy a claim that is local an sue in the name of the original party.
It's called assignment of a chose in action.

For instance, IBB makes a loan to someone in Boston for 10BTC.
Te person defaults.
I buy the claim at a discount and sue them in my local court.
IBB has limited it's loss and I make a profit collecting.

It will also lower the default rate when people know there wages will be garnished.
Right now scammers are relying on lack of legal recourse do to the non-local nature of the transactions.

The lack of recourse has nothing to do with the fact that the object bargained for is Bitcoin. It's access to the courts that is the problem.

Ahhhhh.... I like your thinking..

indio007

full member

Activity: 224

Merit: 100

I don't think it would be enforceble even then. Maybe against their parents but that's it.

Problem really is these amounts are so small they need to be in small claims court.
I don't picture anyone spending $300 on a plane ticket to file a small claim of $50.

That's why I brought up selling debts. Then people can buy a claim that is local an sue in the name of the original party.
It's called assignment of a chose in action.

For instance, IBB makes a loan to someone in Boston for 10BTC.
Te person defaults.
I buy the claim at a discount and sue them in my local court.
IBB has limited it's loss and I make a profit collecting.

It will also lower the default rate when people know there wages will be garnished.
Right now scammers are relying on lack of legal recourse do to the non-local nature of the transactions.

The lack of recourse has nothing to do with the fact that the object bargained for is Bitcoin. It's access to the courts that is the problem.

Maged

legendary

Activity: 1204

Merit: 1015

Quote from: Cory on August 24, 2011, 10:05:36 PM

Quote from: Maged on August 24, 2011, 09:31:26 PM

The thing is, should somebody underage default on their loan and not lie about their age, you can't threaten them with legal action. I know you don't even bother with trying to pursue legal action (at least currently), but that's a strong reason to keep honest people honest. If a kid realizes at the last minute that he can't pay you back, even though he meant to, there's little you can do to encourage him to figure something else out.

That is extremely reasonable. If this were the case, then the blame could be passed on to the lawmakers. However, I know of no jurisdiction in which stealing only becomes illegal past a certain age. Do you know of any?

They aren't stealing. They are merely breaching a contract that is unenforceable because the IBB entered into it knowing that the person was underage. At least in the US, contracts are only enforceable against someone underage if they lied about their age and the IBB made a reasonable attempt to verify it.

However, I am not a lawyer, so please take this with a grain of salt.

Cory

sr. member

Activity: 288

Merit: 250

Quote from: SmokeAndMirrors on August 24, 2011, 08:59:22 PM

Quote from: Cory on August 23, 2011, 02:25:43 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Sadly there has been some correlation to age vs. number of defaulted loans.

I think with age comes maturity, there will always be some ahead and behind the curve.

We are all witnessing the ebb and flow of this thread and I think over time certain respectable younger people will become more obvious in the community. Therefore deeming a second look on a case by case basis, if those individuals request. I cannont speak for Senbonzakura. but I would encourage this thought process with him.

I'm glad to hear that you may be willing to make exceptions. Unfortunately, that does not change the fact that it is unfair to restrict all persons in a immutable group based on the actions of others in that group. There should be no extra hoops to jump through. A person cannot choose their age; it is not a good measure of their reliability.

I would much rather loan an older, more mature person my hard earned dollars/bitcoins than loan them to a 16 year old who's most likely got no reason to even need a 5 btc or so loan. What does a 16 year old buy with $50, and even more important, can I be sure that they even have a job to pay me back? Age has everything to do with responsibility when you're talking about a general population, so I do agree to setting a limit to the age required. Though some 16 year-olds may be responsible enough to handle someone elses cash, most can't. Hell, most can't even handle their own.

I've noticed that nearly every post in this thread supporting the age limit cites reasons unrelated to age. If you think that it is important that the borrower has a reason to need some money, then ask for some details. If you think that it is important that the borrower has a job to pay you back, then ask for some paystubs. I don't see why age needs to even be a question.

Quote from: Maged on August 24, 2011, 09:31:26 PM

The thing is, should somebody underage default on their loan and not lie about their age, you can't threaten them with legal action. I know you don't even bother with trying to pursue legal action (at least currently), but that's a strong reason to keep honest people honest. If a kid realizes at the last minute that he can't pay you back, even though he meant to, there's little you can do to encourage him to figure something else out.

That is extremely reasonable. If this were the case, then the blame could be passed on to the lawmakers. However, I know of no jurisdiction in which stealing only becomes illegal past a certain age. Do you know of any?

Maged

legendary

Activity: 1204

Merit: 1015

The thing is, should somebody underage default on their loan and not lie about their age, you can't threaten them with legal action. I know you don't even bother with trying to pursue legal action (at least currently), but that's a strong reason to keep honest people honest. If a kid realizes at the last minute that he can't pay you back, even though he meant to, there's little you can do to encourage him to figure something else out.

SmokeAndMirrors

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: Cory on August 23, 2011, 02:25:43 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Sadly there has been some correlation to age vs. number of defaulted loans.

I think with age comes maturity, there will always be some ahead and behind the curve.

We are all witnessing the ebb and flow of this thread and I think over time certain respectable younger people will become more obvious in the community. Therefore deeming a second look on a case by case basis, if those individuals request. I cannont speak for Senbonzakura. but I would encourage this thought process with him.

I'm glad to hear that you may be willing to make exceptions. Unfortunately, that does not change the fact that it is unfair to restrict all persons in a immutable group based on the actions of others in that group. There should be no extra hoops to jump through. A person cannot choose their age; it is not a good measure of their reliability.

I would much rather loan an older, more mature person my hard earned dollars/bitcoins than loan them to a 16 year old who's most likely got no reason to even need a 5 btc or so loan. What does a 16 year old buy with $50, and even more important, can I be sure that they even have a job to pay me back? Age has everything to do with responsibility when you're talking about a general population, so I do agree to setting a limit to the age required. Though some 16 year-olds may be responsible enough to handle someone elses cash, most can't. Hell, most can't even handle their own.

Cory

sr. member

Activity: 288

Merit: 250

Quote from: kpriess on August 24, 2011, 03:45:38 PM

I think 16 is about right, at that age you should be mature enough to understand the resposability of asking for money from a stranger..

If you want to measure responsibility, age is definitely not the right way to go about it. As I've said is my earlier posts in this thread, better ways to gauge responsibility include post count and previous successful trades.

kpriess

sr. member

Activity: 415

Merit: 250

Money is the root of all evil.

I think 16 is about right, at that age you should be mature enough to understand the resposability of asking for money from a stranger..

Cory

sr. member

Activity: 288

Merit: 250

I'd love to see the age limit removed. Wink

The other conditions are sufficient.

TiagoTiago

hero member

Activity: 616

Merit: 500

Firstbits.com/1fg4i :)

Just curious, does Islam say anything about denying loans to people based on any of those criteria?

teflone

hero member

Activity: 770

Merit: 500

You're fat, because you dont have any pics on FB

Quote from: Cory on August 23, 2011, 06:05:17 PM

Quote from: teflone on August 23, 2011, 05:46:37 PM

Quote from: Cory on August 23, 2011, 03:07:48 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I already gave loans to young people under 16. One couldnt pay back a loan because his friend hacked his computer and took out the btc and later argued and was reluctant to pay back. In the end his father had to help him out and buy btc from mtgox to pay back the loan.

I did say somewhere that honest trustworthy people with say only 50 posts or 100 posts will not be able to get loans(sadly) due to(scammers) these conditions above. But previous customers are ok and dont have to follow these conditions.

Trust me i want to give loans to a 16 year old or even a 13 year old. The problem is sometimes they may not have the means to pay back, on this forum there are many scammers who are 12 and 13 -16 years old.

If you are a young person and still want a loan (for emergencies or something), you can pm me all your info telephone/name/address/id's and I could probably loan 1 or 2 btc.

Over 18 is to scare away the scammers , that said i am willing to lower it to 16, i shall do now.

I appreciate your response, and I'm overjoyed that you decided to lower the age limit. Now fewer people are going to be discriminated against.

It is unfortunate that you have experienced a greater default rate among those under 18. However, I am unconvinced that age can be used to effectively determine how likely a client is to default when compared to something like number of posts or successful trades with other members. It is unnecessary to restrict loans to those over a certain age, especially when there are plenty of more effective methods available and you are putting in the time to gauge the morality of the individual anyway.

Quote from: ?? on ??

It may be unfair, yes. But many many business's in this genre have these similar rules in effect.

I find it unfair that I pay more in car insurance being a male. This is based on the actions if others in my group.

The first thing that came to my mind when I read the conditions in the first post was car insurance, too! Yes, it is definitely unfair that males pay more in car insurance than females, just like it is unfair that younger drivers pay more than older drivers. I'm glad that you can see the injustice. Why propagate the wrongdoing in your business?

Its just numbers.. it might not seem fair for companies to do that, but if they didnt, Im sure these companies would have even more ridiculous costs associated with them..

I think Senbonzakura is a pretty understanding person, and will remain flexible.

But the majority of the rules are for newcomers..

And like many things, Trust is earned, there must be some basic requirements for Senbonzakura to protect the FREE service offered here..

Right. I agree with what you said.
As I mentioned, there will always be a more direct route to take than age. Worried about newbies? Require that the borrower has been a member here for a while. Concerned about trust? Make sure that the borrower has made several successful trades with other respected members of the community.

Precisely!

Thats earning trust.... Baby steps..

Cory

sr. member

Activity: 288

Merit: 250

Quote from: teflone on August 23, 2011, 05:46:37 PM

Quote from: Cory on August 23, 2011, 03:07:48 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I already gave loans to young people under 16. One couldnt pay back a loan because his friend hacked his computer and took out the btc and later argued and was reluctant to pay back. In the end his father had to help him out and buy btc from mtgox to pay back the loan.

I did say somewhere that honest trustworthy people with say only 50 posts or 100 posts will not be able to get loans(sadly) due to(scammers) these conditions above. But previous customers are ok and dont have to follow these conditions.

Trust me i want to give loans to a 16 year old or even a 13 year old. The problem is sometimes they may not have the means to pay back, on this forum there are many scammers who are 12 and 13 -16 years old.

If you are a young person and still want a loan (for emergencies or something), you can pm me all your info telephone/name/address/id's and I could probably loan 1 or 2 btc.

Over 18 is to scare away the scammers , that said i am willing to lower it to 16, i shall do now.

I appreciate your response, and I'm overjoyed that you decided to lower the age limit. Now fewer people are going to be discriminated against.

It is unfortunate that you have experienced a greater default rate among those under 18. However, I am unconvinced that age can be used to effectively determine how likely a client is to default when compared to something like number of posts or successful trades with other members. It is unnecessary to restrict loans to those over a certain age, especially when there are plenty of more effective methods available and you are putting in the time to gauge the morality of the individual anyway.

Quote from: ?? on ??

It may be unfair, yes. But many many business's in this genre have these similar rules in effect.

I find it unfair that I pay more in car insurance being a male. This is based on the actions if others in my group.

The first thing that came to my mind when I read the conditions in the first post was car insurance, too! Yes, it is definitely unfair that males pay more in car insurance than females, just like it is unfair that younger drivers pay more than older drivers. I'm glad that you can see the injustice. Why propagate the wrongdoing in your business?

Its just numbers.. it might not seem fair for companies to do that, but if they didnt, Im sure these companies would have even more ridiculous costs associated with them..

I think Senbonzakura is a pretty understanding person, and will remain flexible.

But the majority of the rules are for newcomers..

And like many things, Trust is earned, there must be some basic requirements for Senbonzakura to protect the FREE service offered here..

Right. I agree with what you said.
As I mentioned, there will always be a more direct route to take than age. Worried about newbies? Require that the borrower has been a member here for a while. Concerned about trust? Make sure that the borrower has made several successful trades with other respected members of the community.

teflone

hero member

Activity: 770

Merit: 500

You're fat, because you dont have any pics on FB

Quote from: Cory on August 23, 2011, 03:07:48 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I already gave loans to young people under 16. One couldnt pay back a loan because his friend hacked his computer and took out the btc and later argued and was reluctant to pay back. In the end his father had to help him out and buy btc from mtgox to pay back the loan.

I did say somewhere that honest trustworthy people with say only 50 posts or 100 posts will not be able to get loans(sadly) due to(scammers) these conditions above. But previous customers are ok and dont have to follow these conditions.

Trust me i want to give loans to a 16 year old or even a 13 year old. The problem is sometimes they may not have the means to pay back, on this forum there are many scammers who are 12 and 13 -16 years old.

If you are a young person and still want a loan (for emergencies or something), you can pm me all your info telephone/name/address/id's and I could probably loan 1 or 2 btc.

Over 18 is to scare away the scammers , that said i am willing to lower it to 16, i shall do now.

I appreciate your response, and I'm overjoyed that you decided to lower the age limit. Now fewer people are going to be discriminated against.

It is unfortunate that you have experienced a greater default rate among those under 18. However, I am unconvinced that age can be used to effectively determine how likely a client is to default when compared to something like number of posts or successful trades with other members. It is unnecessary to restrict loans to those over a certain age, especially when there are plenty of more effective methods available and you are putting in the time to gauge the morality of the individual anyway.

Quote from: ?? on ??

It may be unfair, yes. But many many business's in this genre have these similar rules in effect.

I find it unfair that I pay more in car insurance being a male. This is based on the actions if others in my group.

The first thing that came to my mind when I read the conditions in the first post was car insurance, too! Yes, it is definitely unfair that males pay more in car insurance than females, just like it is unfair that younger drivers pay more than older drivers. I'm glad that you can see the injustice. Why propagate the wrongdoing in your business?

Its just numbers.. it might not seem fair for companies to do that, but if they didnt, Im sure these companies would have even more ridiculous costs associated with them..

I think Senbonzakura is a pretty understanding person, and will remain flexible.

But the majority of the rules are for newcomers..

And like many things, Trust is earned, there must be some basic requirements for Senbonzakura to protect the FREE service offered here..

Cory

sr. member

Activity: 288

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

I already gave loans to young people under 16. One couldnt pay back a loan because his friend hacked his computer and took out the btc and later argued and was reluctant to pay back. In the end his father had to help him out and buy btc from mtgox to pay back the loan.

I did say somewhere that honest trustworthy people with say only 50 posts or 100 posts will not be able to get loans(sadly) due to(scammers) these conditions above. But previous customers are ok and dont have to follow these conditions.

Trust me i want to give loans to a 16 year old or even a 13 year old. The problem is sometimes they may not have the means to pay back, on this forum there are many scammers who are 12 and 13 -16 years old.

If you are a young person and still want a loan (for emergencies or something), you can pm me all your info telephone/name/address/id's and I could probably loan 1 or 2 btc.

Over 18 is to scare away the scammers , that said i am willing to lower it to 16, i shall do now.

I appreciate your response, and I'm overjoyed that you decided to lower the age limit. Now fewer people are going to be discriminated against.

It is unfortunate that you have experienced a greater default rate among those under 18. However, I am unconvinced that age can be used to effectively determine how likely a client is to default when compared to something like number of posts or successful trades with other members. It is unnecessary to restrict loans to those over a certain age, especially when there are plenty of more effective methods available and you are putting in the time to gauge the morality of the individual anyway.

Quote from: ?? on ??

It may be unfair, yes. But many many business's in this genre have these similar rules in effect.

I find it unfair that I pay more in car insurance being a male. This is based on the actions if others in my group.

The first thing that came to my mind when I read the conditions in the first post was car insurance, too! Yes, it is definitely unfair that males pay more in car insurance than females, just like it is unfair that younger drivers pay more than older drivers. I'm glad that you can see the injustice. Why propagate the wrongdoing in your business?

indio007

full member

Activity: 224

Merit: 100

Not to kill you with questions but what are Islamic compatible methods of debt collection ? Can you assign/sell debts for collection?

This might help mitigate losses.

1. Sell the debt to someone local to the defaulting party (at a discount of course)
2. Assignnee sues in small claims for specific performance in name of original party.

This is called an assignment of a chose in action and might be a remedy for against scammers.

indio007

full member

Activity: 224

Merit: 100

Does IBB have a web address?

Cory

sr. member

Activity: 288

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Sadly there has been some correlation to age vs. number of defaulted loans.

I think with age comes maturity, there will always be some ahead and behind the curve.

We are all witnessing the ebb and flow of this thread and I think over time certain respectable younger people will become more obvious in the community. Therefore deeming a second look on a case by case basis, if those individuals request. I cannont speak for Senbonzakura. but I would encourage this thought process with him.

I'm glad to hear that you may be willing to make exceptions. Unfortunately, that does not change the fact that it is unfair to restrict all persons in a immutable group based on the actions of others in that group. There should be no extra hoops to jump through. A person cannot choose their age; it is not a good measure of their reliability.

Cory

sr. member

Activity: 288

Merit: 250

Quote from: indio007 on August 23, 2011, 01:02:11 AM

There needs to be some cut of line for age. You you lend money to a 3 yr. old?
It needs to be somewhere.

I absolutely would if that 3-year-old had more than 200 non-spam posts on this forum, provided verifiable identification, and had performed successful trades with other trustworthy members of the community. Why draw the line at an arbitrary quality like age?

indio007

full member

Activity: 224

Merit: 100

There needs to be some cut of line for age. Would you lend money to a 3 yr. old?
It needs to be somewhere.

Cory

sr. member

Activity: 288

Merit: 250

While I do commend you, IBB, for the wonderful service that you provide to so many members of this community, I must express my dissatisfaction with one qualification. I think it is unfair to base your lending decision on age. Not only is the client's age nearly impossible to verify, but it is irrelevant. I request that you rescind all qualifications regarding age. The ageist policy contributes to the bigotry against those under 18. Your other qualifications are all sensible, and can be related to the likelihood that the client will repay their debts. However, your current rules are prejudiced and based on stereotypes that need to be abolished from society. It is unfortunate that your organization is assisting in the spread of these wrong, discriminatory views. Please revise your conditions.

Topic: . - page 4. (Read 13782 times)