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legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1001
This is the land of wolves now & you're not a wolf
..
May 25, 2014, 04:56:01 PM
#47
Please, bitpay is a pioneer in a virgin market that will likely be worth billions of dollars
Maybe fundamentally too high, but certainly not if you look at how valley VCs gauge potential and allocate capital

True, but the barrier to entry is low.  It will possibly be a very crowded space.  Does bitpay have anything innovative?

They have grown to the point, where name recognition alone is enough to make up for some lack in innovation.   When you think of merchant services (in regards to BTC), the two names that basically come to mind (for me at least), are Bitpay and Coinbase.

Has anyone done an independent valuation of Coinbase?
member
Activity: 108
Merit: 10
May 25, 2014, 03:44:11 PM
#46
GoCoin, founded by Brock Pierce, was able to obtain $500,000 USD of VC capital from their two(?) bedroom home/office above a restaurant in Singapore, with 95% of its customer base residing in the US. Surely, BitPay is worth six times that.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
May 25, 2014, 11:23:52 AM
#45
Ridiculous compared to, say, a company called Nest, that just sold for $3.2 billion? They make fancy thermostats, haven't sold very many of them. Or Tesla, valued the same as GM. Tesla has sold as many cars since they were founded in 2010 as GM sells every day of the year including weekends. And Tesla lost $1 billion doing it, after receiving hundreds of millions in green handouts. $160M for Bitpay? It's a steal.

Intelligent people invest in companies and ventures, which are having the maximum potential to grow and expand their business. When I say intelligent, I mean innovative people such as Richard Branson, and not old school investors like Warren Buffet.
member
Activity: 200
Merit: 10
May 25, 2014, 10:42:27 AM
#44
Ridiculous compared to, say, a company called Nest, that just sold for $3.2 billion? They make fancy thermostats, haven't sold very many of them. Or Tesla, valued the same as GM. Tesla has sold as many cars since they were founded in 2010 as GM sells every day of the year including weekends. And Tesla lost $1 billion doing it, after receiving hundreds of millions in green handouts. $160M for Bitpay? It's a steal.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
May 19, 2014, 04:09:56 PM
#43
Guess what, Richard Branson and Peter Thiel have done valuations before.

/thread.

It is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it and people were willing to pay it.  Now Branson and Thiel may have massively overpaid as concluded by armchair investors who have never written a million dollar check before but I doubt it.
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
May 19, 2014, 03:41:13 PM
#42
The valuation is way off. It is nowhere near 160 million. At the very most multiplying their profits by ten would take it to $10 million. Raising capital doesn't count as sales or gross profit, so it isn't really something to be factored into the valuation.

Let's compare Bitpay with Ebay. For Ebay, the operating profits are near $2.85 billion. Its market cap is 65.84 billion. The P/E ratio is more than 23. Now look at Bitpay. The business is growing at a rapid pace, and profits are expected to touch $10 million per year by the end of 2014. So, I think that a valuation of $160 million is fair.

Where did you get their profits? They've reported more than 1m in daily revenue processing, say it's 1.35m per day that's 500m per year.

Their most expensive processing option is 1%. Their cheapest is 0.01% (pay 1$ or $10 a day to process $10k or $100k respectively).

Let's be generous and say they average 0.80%. That means they take $4m in revenue a year. How much of that is profit? Well, Amazon has 0.35% profit margins in 2013, for example. Who knows, but I'd say 10% would be very generous. So let's say 10%. That means they take 0.4m in profit.

Or look at something else, their team. They have about 35 employees and they're a software company in a competitive space. Software engineers easily make 100k, for Silicon Valley often 200k. And that's just salary. For every employee you then pay various expenses like taxes, healthcare, meal plans, software/hardware, office space, training etc etc. To say the average cost per employee is $100k would again be pretty generous for a typical software company. So that puts their employee costs at 3.5m already and we haven't even begun looking at their cost of liquidating bitcoin, making bank transfers to merchants or any of the server infrastructure they're built on.

So 10m annual profits for 2014 I think is a complete joke. But that doesn't mean the valuation is wrong. I think 160m is a very normal valuation if you look at Bitpay's numbers today, their growth rate, the prospects of the market and apply a discounted cash flow model to that. Guess what, Richard Branson and Peter Thiel have done valuations before.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
May 19, 2014, 01:04:03 AM
#41
The valuation is way off. It is nowhere near 160 million. At the very most multiplying their profits by ten would take it to $10 million. Raising capital doesn't count as sales or gross profit, so it isn't really something to be factored into the valuation.

Let's compare Bitpay with Ebay. For Ebay, the operating profits are near $2.85 billion. Its market cap is 65.84 billion. The P/E ratio is more than 23. Now look at Bitpay. The business is growing at a rapid pace, and profits are expected to touch $10 million per year by the end of 2014. So, I think that a valuation of $160 million is fair.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
May 19, 2014, 12:37:44 AM
#40
The valuation is way off. It is nowhere near 160 million. At the very most multiplying their profits by ten would take it to $10 million. Raising capital doesn't count as sales or gross profit, so it isn't really something to be factored into the valuation.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
May 13, 2014, 07:48:30 PM
#39
Frankly I don't see anything wrong with the valuation. BitPay is a leader in its space and as others have said before me, this valuation may look ridiculously low in a year or two from now. Using the Beats as an example with its rumored sale to Apple, the valuation for that company back in September was $1 billion dollars after the Carlyle Group purchased 50% of the company for $500 million. Now Apple is supposedly buying them for $3.2 Billion a whole 8 months later.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/05/11/apples-potential-32-billion-deal-works.aspx

VC's, Hedge Funds and other accredited investors aren't in the business of losing money! JMHO  Wink
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
May 13, 2014, 03:01:20 PM
#38
I'll add some comments about business valuation.

Say I've got a money-tree (like a goldmine with a certain reserve of gold) that pays out $100 every year for 10 years. How much would you pay for it? Well, the lifetime revenue is $1000. But you wouldn't pay $1000, because of the time value of money. $100 in 1900 is worth only $2 today due to inflation of prices, for example. When you have $100 today and accrue interest for 10 years, it's worth a lot more than getting $100 in 10 years. So there's some 'discount rate' every year, so the money-tree might only be worth say $750. The rate depends on many factors, it's just an example.

This is roughly how companies are valued. You look at revenue streams and discount them over some time and then pay for that, minus some risk factor that the company fails. In addition, you may pay for various assets, but sometimes they can be a small factor. After all, assets are only valuable to generate revenue which you already calculate, or to sell. But some assets aren't very valuable when sold. (e.g. if Bitpay or bitcoin fails, its bitcoin payment processing software or its bitcoins will have little resale value. So for Bitpay, revenues are the big factor).

So let's look at Bitpay, they've recently stated in a developer presentation that they process about 1-2m a day. Say 500m a year. They also made public they grow at about 10% a month, which is equal to Coinbase, Blockchain.info and Multibit for example, so it's a very reasonable number. We can also say they take 1% as fees like Coinbase does.

So their revenues are 5m annually, today, and their growth rate is 3x annually. So for the next 5 years that's 5m, 15m, 45m, 135m, 405m.

See now where the 160m valuation comes from? Of course, this is a very rough calculation. For example, they make less than 1% in fees to be exact, it's probably closer to 0.75%. Their 3x growth per year is of course impossible to continue indefinitely, it may slow to 2x or even 1.5x at some point. And I haven't applied the discount rate yet (which isn't huge, by the way), nor the risk that bitcoin fails. (but then, it is *venture* capital). If you value a company on its 10-year revenue stream like is often done, 160m is a very realistic rate.

Now, let's be clear, Bitpay didn't make this valuation by itself. You've got a number of silicon valley / entrepreneurial legends turned investors (top-ranking ones) who offered to buy close to 20% for 30m. THAT is the valuation. These VCs made the valuation. Now you can say it's ridiculous without any arguments, but if I'd have to guess, I'd probably side with the VCs. They're self-made. Not by a single stroke of luck, but by series of successful companies and successful investments. You can be assured they've done their homework.

I'm not versed in how all this VC funding works, but is it possible for an entity to state that they're funding $X, but in reality are not, hoping/knowing that a true source with deep pockets will come along, saying to themselves, "If that entity is in for $X, I'm in for $Y."? Thus, now there's real money, namely $Y, to use for operating, development, pool parties naked by the hot tub, etc. And, not just $Y, but other venture capitalist don't want to be left out of making bank, so they, too, join the flock pumping in $Zs.

Yes and no.

First of all, VCs do a lot of research and they employ a legal and financial team to review the company and audit the company. This will show whether there were actual investments or not. It's very difficult to fool a VC that you have more money than you do from investments, as the financial books are audited by an independent party commonly like Goldman Sachs or something.

Secondly, some VCs are actually very clever. If they see lots of dumb money going into the company they'll say two things quite often. 1) There's too much money, no substance. This company has more money than it needs and, as every person with too much money, will spend it on unnecessary things. So if you invest even more, guess what, your money is going to unnecessary things that startups should stay away from. And 2) They'll see that where the company was worth X, pre-interest it cost say X, but after all the hype, it costs 2X even though it's still only worth X. In other words, when a company is really hyped up, it's often too late for the VC investment. For example, Bitpay was probably a bargain when it only had 2.7m and little interest from VCs, but now with 33m in funding from top dogs, it's going to be expensive to buy. And VCs don't like that.

Thirdly, VCs do their own research and run numbers. A lot about valuation is mathematics on projected revenues, or some strategic advantage (e.g. Yahoo buying a mobile company to move to mobile more), and they don't change when a company has a ton of interest from VCs. It's still got the same projected revenues so the valuation is more or less the same. But if a VC wants to invest, and then blow it off, that's often a signal to other VCs that the projected revenues were wrong, or the company wasn't that great after it was audited.

But finally, yes, yes of course. VCs are humans, and if they see everyone try to get in on it, they'll probably pay a higher price. But the effect isn't as big as one might think. VCs are a lot more aware of herd-mentality since the dot com bubble, but they're not perfect.
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
May 13, 2014, 02:51:35 PM
#37
A company's valuation is based on discounted expected future earnings.  With bitpay you have to look at how much will they be earning next year, then the next, then the next?  We already know that their revenues grew 10x last year.  We've also heard that BitPay is presently making buckets of profit.  Bitcoin hasn't even began to hit consumer adoption yet, so if the trend continues then there should be many years worth of exponential growth with a high profit margin.

Exactly. Some numbers:

Bitpay processes about 500m a year. Their revenue is probably about 0.75% of that, or say roughly 4m.

They have 40k merchants now and they add more than 1k every week. They growth is about 10% monthly, or 3x annually.

In other words, if you imagine their growth rate continues for 5 years, their revenues are 4m, 12m, 36m, 108m, 324m.

Then add another 5 years of slower growth, and apply a discount rate to that. It's quite easy to see why a 160m valuation isn't ridiculous at all.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
May 13, 2014, 06:38:47 AM
#36
A company's valuation is based on discounted expected future earnings.  With bitpay you have to look at how much will they be earning next year, then the next, then the next?  We already know that their revenues grew 10x last year.  We've also heard that BitPay is presently making buckets of profit.  Bitcoin hasn't even began to hit consumer adoption yet, so if the trend continues then there should be many years worth of exponential growth with a high profit margin.

exactly  Smiley


http://indexventures.com/news-room/blog/payment-without-borders-why-we%E2%80%99re-backing-bitpay
member
Activity: 118
Merit: 10
May 13, 2014, 03:29:11 AM
#35
A company's valuation is based on discounted expected future earnings.  With bitpay you have to look at how much will they be earning next year, then the next, then the next?  We already know that their revenues grew 10x last year.  We've also heard that BitPay is presently making buckets of profit.  Bitcoin hasn't even began to hit consumer adoption yet, so if the trend continues then there should be many years worth of exponential growth with a high profit margin.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
May 13, 2014, 12:20:56 AM
#34
I'll add some comments about business valuation.

Say I've got a money-tree (like a goldmine with a certain reserve of gold) that pays out $100 every year for 10 years. How much would you pay for it? Well, the lifetime revenue is $1000. But you wouldn't pay $1000, because of the time value of money. $100 in 1900 is worth only $2 today due to inflation of prices, for example. When you have $100 today and accrue interest for 10 years, it's worth a lot more than getting $100 in 10 years. So there's some 'discount rate' every year, so the money-tree might only be worth say $750. The rate depends on many factors, it's just an example.

This is roughly how companies are valued. You look at revenue streams and discount them over some time and then pay for that, minus some risk factor that the company fails. In addition, you may pay for various assets, but sometimes they can be a small factor. After all, assets are only valuable to generate revenue which you already calculate, or to sell. But some assets aren't very valuable when sold. (e.g. if Bitpay or bitcoin fails, its bitcoin payment processing software or its bitcoins will have little resale value. So for Bitpay, revenues are the big factor).

So let's look at Bitpay, they've recently stated in a developer presentation that they process about 1-2m a day. Say 500m a year. They also made public they grow at about 10% a month, which is equal to Coinbase, Blockchain.info and Multibit for example, so it's a very reasonable number. We can also say they take 1% as fees like Coinbase does.

So their revenues are 5m annually, today, and their growth rate is 3x annually. So for the next 5 years that's 5m, 15m, 45m, 135m, 405m.

See now where the 160m valuation comes from? Of course, this is a very rough calculation. For example, they make less than 1% in fees to be exact, it's probably closer to 0.75%. Their 3x growth per year is of course impossible to continue indefinitely, it may slow to 2x or even 1.5x at some point. And I haven't applied the discount rate yet (which isn't huge, by the way), nor the risk that bitcoin fails. (but then, it is *venture* capital). If you value a company on its 10-year revenue stream like is often done, 160m is a very realistic rate.

Now, let's be clear, Bitpay didn't make this valuation by itself. You've got a number of silicon valley / entrepreneurial legends turned investors (top-ranking ones) who offered to buy close to 20% for 30m. THAT is the valuation. These VCs made the valuation. Now you can say it's ridiculous without any arguments, but if I'd have to guess, I'd probably side with the VCs. They're self-made. Not by a single stroke of luck, but by series of successful companies and successful investments. You can be assured they've done their homework.

I'm not versed in how all this VC funding works, but is it possible for an entity to state that they're funding $X, but in reality are not, hoping/knowing that a true source with deep pockets will come along, saying to themselves, "If that entity is in for $X, I'm in for $Y."? Thus, now there's real money, namely $Y, to use for operating, development, pool parties naked by the hot tub, etc. And, not just $Y, but other venture capitalist don't want to be left out of making bank, so they, too, join the flock pumping in $Zs.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 500
Time is on our side, yes it is!
May 12, 2014, 11:30:12 PM
#33
I'm okay with it as long as it doesn't go the the heads of bears..  As long as I don't start seeing flaming rocketships and trains flying to the moon, haha.  Does seem to be a high estimate but who knows, we could be saying that was a low estimate in the future.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
May 12, 2014, 11:20:26 PM
#32
Has this fund raise been confirmed yet?
Don't see it covered yet in TechCrunch
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 257
bluemeanie
May 12, 2014, 09:34:07 PM
#31
BitPay raising $30 million of capital, gives itself a $160 million valuation which is ridiculous - an article by The Cryptocurrency Times http://www.usacryptocoins.com/thecryptocurrencytimes/uncategorized/bitpay-raising-30-million-of-capital-gives-itself-a-160-million-valuation-which-is-ridiculous/

This is how black money becomes white.

Exactly right. Investments are for more than just percentage of profit.

may i also add that this is how QE is efficiently infiltrating Bitcoin's blooming economy & at the end, banks win.

until the banks run out of quantities to ease.

-bm
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
May 12, 2014, 09:32:15 PM
#30
BitPay raising $30 million of capital, gives itself a $160 million valuation which is ridiculous - an article by The Cryptocurrency Times http://www.usacryptocoins.com/thecryptocurrencytimes/uncategorized/bitpay-raising-30-million-of-capital-gives-itself-a-160-million-valuation-which-is-ridiculous/

This is how black money becomes white.

Exactly right. Investments are for more than just percentage of profit.

may i also add that this is how QE is efficiently infiltrating Bitcoin's blooming economy & at the end, banks win.
newbie
Activity: 23
Merit: 0
May 12, 2014, 09:28:08 PM
#29
I wonder how those valuation models the VCs used deal with BTC and other cryptocurrency volatility in their pricing (aren't revenues generated in those coins?)... Sorry but does risk of 50% drawdown in currency not put some kind of cap on the multiple they pay? Then again, 50% appreciation could make the valuation look cheap. But you just don't know. Also, what kind of assumptions does it make about liquidity (or is that the whole point between the relatively huge chunk of capital - another possible explanation)?

Somebody on this thread or another said something to the tune of "well maybe they're paying for potential growth, and not just basing a price off fundamental value." This is actually exactly how VCs operate - the idea has been around awhile, most recently Nassim Taleb described it as "harvesting optionality," but in the past it's been called "asymmetric returns" and other things. Basically, potential for asymmetric returns + diversified portfolio leads to a portfolio with a more favorable risk/return profile than the regular, overall market. In theory. (<-- big emphasis..) This blog post talks about it for anybody interested: http://25iq.com/2014/04/05/the-best-venture-capitalists-harvest-optionality-dealing-with-risk-uncertainty-and-ignorance/

newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
May 12, 2014, 05:43:32 PM
#28
I think it will one day be worth the Moon for sure, You heard it here first!
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