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legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
July 07, 2012, 04:58:55 AM
#77
Our insurance fund is not deposited at BS&T. 
I never said that I was going to deposit your first 1000 BTC at BS&T.
I was only going to use it to insure my current 1000 BTC deposit...
This way when Pirat runs away with my money, I will have your 1000 BTC, from which I will give you 310 BTC while keeping remaining 690 BTC for myself...
If Pirate doesn't run away with the money, I will just give you back 1240, keeping my initial 1000 BTC and the 70+ BTC extra from the weekly compounded interests.
Either way I win: in fist case I get a free 69% insurance, in second case I get 7% monthly interest.
Now, if I start cycling it, accepting a new 1000 BTC each new week, while putting the previous one into BS&T - it will eventually become 100% insurance for my deposit, while still holding it at 7% monthly...
You are not considering opportunity cost. You 69% insurance is not free. It comes at the cost of lower earnings, i.e., getting only 7% every four weeks instead of 31%.
Of course 7% is less than 31%, but if you can get it 100% insured by the buyers of the cycling bonds (which PPT has already managed to do), then it is a great 7%/month, risk-free business, isn't it?
And I don't have a problem with it.
What I do have a problem with is the propaganda campaign aimed to delude more suckers into believing that they get a "free insurance", because the PPT holders are generously giving it to them risking own capital... Yeah, sure - just how stupid one needs to be to buy it? Smiley
Shame on them, for selling lies like that, instead of just admitting the truth.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
July 06, 2012, 11:09:42 PM
#76
Our insurance fund is not deposited at BS&T. 
I never said that I was going to deposit your first 1000 BTC at BS&T.
I was only going to use it to insure my current 1000 BTC deposit...
This way when Pirat runs away with my money, I will have your 1000 BTC, from which I will give you 310 BTC while keeping remaining 690 BTC for myself...
If Pirate doesn't run away with the money, I will just give you back 1240, keeping my initial 1000 BTC and the 70+ BTC extra from the weekly compounded interests.
Either way I win: in fist case I get a free 69% insurance, in second case I get 7% monthly interest.
Now, if I start cycling it, accepting a new 1000 BTC each new week, while putting the previous one into BS&T - it will eventually become 100% insurance for my deposit, while still holding it at 7% monthly...
You are not considering opportunity cost. You 69% insurance is not free. It comes at the cost of lower earnings, i.e., getting only 7% every four weeks instead of 31%.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
July 06, 2012, 05:59:33 PM
#75
In response to some sensible questions from PPT.DIV holders, and some quite stupid and ill informed comments by some others, I have decided to make a stand in the market for ALL PPT.DIV shares at or around 0.25
Considering that you sold them just a few weeks ago at 1.00 (or maybe even more), buying them back at 0.25 after you've just voted to shut down the business is extremely generous from you Tongue

Just make sure to let us know which enterprise you are going to start next, so we could buy some other, great, brand new shares from you. Smiley

I am interested at the number of lies you managed to squash into that post.

1: I did not sell my PPT.DIV shares a few weeks ago.  Over the past few weeks I have purchased and sold shares on my own account.
2: Those I have sold were at an average price much lower than 1.00 and my decision to sell was based on information fully publicly available.
3: The vote was not to shut down the PPT.x offerings, but to change the floor price.

It would appear you wish to ignore the facts that are available and slander various people along the way.
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
July 06, 2012, 08:57:05 AM
#74
Our insurance fund is not deposited at BS&T. 
I never said that I was going to deposit your first 1000 BTC at BS&T.
I was only going to use it to insure my 1000 BTC deposit...
This way when Pirat runs away with my money, I will have your 1000 BTC, from which I will give you 310 BTC while keeping remaining 690 BTC for myself...
If Pirate doesn't run away with the money, I will just give you back 1240, keeping my initial 1000 BTC and the 70+ BTC extra from the weekly compounded interests.
Either way I win: in fist case I get a free 69% insurance, in second case I get 7% monthly interest.
Now, if I start cycling it, accepting a new 1000 BTC each new week, while putting the previous one into BS&T - it will eventually become 100% insurance for my deposit, while still holding it at 7% monthly...
Sounds like a plan.  See if there is a market for your service.  Let us know if you need any help.
As I said: I'm not going to delude unconscious suckers, because I just find it dishonest.

I offered it to you, a conscious businessman, but you obviously are not going to be one of my customers, since you understand very well that this schema is only benefiting me at your cost.
You understand very well that the 25% insurance which I'm "giving you for free" doesn't cost me anything and the risk is still all yours...
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
July 06, 2012, 08:44:33 AM
#73
Our insurance fund is not deposited at BS&T. 
I never said that I was going to deposit your first 1000 BTC at BS&T.
I was only going to use it to insure my current 1000 BTC deposit...
This way when Pirat runs away with my money, I will have your 1000 BTC, from which I will give you 310 BTC while keeping remaining 690 BTC for myself...
If Pirate doesn't run away with the money, I will just give you back 1240, keeping my initial 1000 BTC and the 70+ BTC extra from the weekly compounded interests.
Either way I win: in fist case I get a free 69% insurance, in second case I get 7% monthly interest.
Now, if I start cycling it, accepting a new 1000 BTC each new week, while putting the previous one into BS&T - it will eventually become 100% insurance for my deposit, while still holding it at 7% monthly...
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
July 06, 2012, 08:31:50 AM
#72
Please let me know what enterprise(s) you have started so I can return the favor and go visit your thread(s) and give you my valuable opinions on them.
I make up my living by doing a honest work, not by selling illusions to unconscious suckers.
In other word you have not even tried to start any kind of BTC related business.  Thanks.
Well, I have some funds deposited at BS&T, so if you want I will be more than happy to provide you with the same kind of service as your business is giving.
You give me 1000 BTC every week and each time I return you 1240 after 4 weeks. Unless BS&T defaults - in such case I only give you back 25% from your total 4 week-span investments.
How about that?  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
July 06, 2012, 08:18:28 AM
#71
Please let me know what enterprise(s) you have started so I can return the favor and go visit your thread(s) and give you my valuable opinions on them.
I make up my living by doing a honest work, not by selling illusions to unconscious suckers.
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1356
aka tonikt
July 06, 2012, 05:41:25 AM
#70
In response to some sensible questions from PPT.DIV holders, and some quite stupid and ill informed comments by some others, I have decided to make a stand in the market for ALL PPT.DIV shares at or around 0.25
Considering that you sold them just a few weeks ago at 1.00 (or maybe even more), buying them back at 0.25 after you've just voted to shut down the business is extremely generous from you Tongue

Just make sure to let us know which enterprise you are going to start next, so we could buy some other, great, brand new shares from you. Smiley
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
July 06, 2012, 12:08:11 AM
#69
Hey bro,
Quote
May 04, 2012, 04:32:28 AM
How'd you get a referral again?

They're in cereal boxes.
R-
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Pasta
July 05, 2012, 11:23:01 PM
#68
Hey bro,
Quote
May 04, 2012, 04:32:28 AM
How'd you get a referral again?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
July 05, 2012, 11:10:13 PM
#67
In response to some sensible questions from PPT.DIV holders, and some quite stupid and ill informed comments by some others, I have decided to make a stand in the market for ALL PPT.DIV shares at or around 0.25   I have 6,250 bids currently placed.  This represents at least three months dividends based on 0.02/share which is current, and does not include any further drop which I calculated today might see it fall to 0.01/share per week.  This price also reflects the fact that a few months of dividends has already passed.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
July 05, 2012, 04:24:56 AM
#66
So, when PPT shuts down...

With an insurance fund of ~3800 BTC, and 9000 PPT.DIV bonds, assuming that PPT could withdraw their entire principle from Pirate without default, each PPT.DIV bondholder would be looking at a ~0.42 BTC buyback. Can you confirm this is correct?

No.

PPT.DIV gets profit.  The insurance fund is not a generated profit, but funds contributed from the six founders.

Profit is net income after expenses/costs, not gross.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
Per aspera ad astra!
July 05, 2012, 03:50:56 AM
#65
So, when PPT shuts down...

With an insurance fund of ~3800 BTC, and 9000 PPT.DIV bonds, assuming that PPT could withdraw their entire principle from Pirate without default, each PPT.DIV bondholder would be looking at a ~0.42 BTC buyback. Can you confirm this is correct?
donator
Activity: 919
Merit: 1000
July 04, 2012, 06:26:37 PM
#64
Thanks for clarification, Patrick.

Really didn't want to imply any complains - already admitted that I'm to blame for not reading the contract carefully enough.

Voted for the motion and am quite confident that this will remain a highly profitable investment.


Cheers!
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
July 04, 2012, 05:48:40 PM
#63
I've just answered a pm and then saw the post and thought it might be worth repeating the bulk of the contents here

[... long technical explanation ...]

Ok, I'm the one you answered PM and I must admit that my skills are not sufficient to fully follow your answer you also posted here.

Being confused I was asking you a simple question: what happens to PPT.DIV shares if your cartel decides to stop operation next week, but not because Pirate defaults but (let's say) you all had better things to do? Right now it seems that shares are getting worthless, while you cartel members can grab your coins back from the risk fund and profit from the shares you all sold to the public.

I hoped for something easy to understand, like: Yes/no, if we stop, you are/aren't fu**ed. Instead, you responded long, but missed to clarify.

You wrote
Quote
The notion of just shutting up shop (ceasing) is not so straight forward because we have a duty to protect the interests of PPT.DIV holders...
but nowhere in the contract it is written that you have to. Not implying this is what you planned to do, but as soon as all 9000 shares are sold to the public (or say 8100), what prevents you to cease PPT operation, start PPT2, and issue PPT2.DIV? Other than we all know you are just nice guys Wink


Hi Zefir - sorry for making a long-winded pm in response.  Let me try with the short version - you're not completely screwed (and that's not supposed to be financial advice).

Realistically, the change in the pass-through business and competition changed the value of the DIV shares several weeks ago and that is reflected in the recent average trade prices around 0.6 (5-day average).  We have looked at several different options to retain value based on the original premise including issuing more, issuing uninsured and running different auctions for different time-zones.  (cedus - still nothing preventing you putting in bids at a time that suits you given the low prices and thin bid volumes).

As for the
Quote
The notion of just shutting up shop (ceasing) is not so straight forward because we have a duty to protect the interests of PPT.DIV holders...
, that's not written in the contract, and nor should it need to be.  Simple principles of company law require Directors to uphold their fiduciary duties to stakeholders.  Plus,  screwing over shareholders is an incredibly stupid thing for an issuer to do and would do considerable damage to the other business that we (the PPT issuers) are involved in.

As for future value - that's still an unknown. 
newbie
Activity: 46
Merit: 0
July 04, 2012, 12:38:33 PM
#62
We discussed several option from closing down PPT to increasing the insurance fund to increasing the number of bonds sold per week to 6,000.

But not changing the auction time to more Euro-friendly direction?

I think you might find those additional investors with right risk preference simply by adjusting the auction time. IMO insured bonds are your strenght, not weakness. Unfortunately I can't show it to you fully until the auction is changed to be held at a more reasonable time. Which is kinda sad, cos I just found your great products and I like your professional touch.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
July 04, 2012, 11:58:42 AM
#61
It's always a bad idea to first buy and then think
Yes. Investors need to learn this. All the information was there at the beginning to help investors form their own valuations. My initial bids when this asset launched were out bid so I missed out, but I was not perturbed. It is a mistake to overpay, even for a good asset.

That said, I don't think this asset is dead yet.
donator
Activity: 919
Merit: 1000
July 04, 2012, 11:19:34 AM
#60
I've just answered a pm and then saw the post and thought it might be worth repeating the bulk of the contents here

[... long technical explanation ...]

Ok, I'm the one you answered PM and I must admit that my skills are not sufficient to fully follow your answer you also posted here.

I invested heavily in PPT.DIV assuming the issuers are passing the risk for putting their money into the insurance fund to the shareholder. This would include the right to receive parts of the profits of PPT operation, but also an equivalent portion of the coins put into PPT insurance fund. My bad I was not reading the contract carefully enough but instead assumed what was obvious to me. Now I got that PPT.DIV is only limited to the first part (getting part of the profit as long it goes), but not for the second.

Being confused I was asking you a simple question: what happens to PPT.DIV shares if your cartel decides to stop operation next week, but not because Pirate defaults but (let's say) you all had better things to do? Right now it seems that shares are getting worthless, while you cartel members can grab your coins back from the risk fund and profit from the shares you all sold to the public.

I hoped for something easy to understand, like: Yes/no, if we stop, you are/aren't fu**ed. Instead, you responded long, but missed to clarify.

You wrote
Quote
The notion of just shutting up shop (ceasing) is not so straight forward because we have a duty to protect the interests of PPT.DIV holders...
but nowhere in the contract it is written that you have to. Not implying this is what you planned to do, but as soon as all 9000 shares are sold to the public (or say 8100), what prevents you to cease PPT operation, start PPT2, and issue PPT2.DIV? Other than we all know you are just nice guys Wink

It's always a bad idea to first buy and then think, but in this case I feel that the risk/chance distribution between issuer and holder is quite unbalanced.


If I got it wrong, sorry for yelling. And thanks for taking your time.
legendary
Activity: 1449
Merit: 1001
July 04, 2012, 06:03:00 AM
#59
The average selling price was close to 1.04 anyway.  It will probably stay close to that , maybe a bit higher.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
July 04, 2012, 05:48:24 AM
#58


Can we conclude that a failure of this motion results in the PPT closing down? What I take from the contract is that this basically renders PPT.DIV shares worthless, seems like an easy decision?


Actually no, that doesn't happen so easily.  The way the business is set up doesn't allow it to be shut down like that, and it's not an "easy" decision.  However, we also need to protect the value of the business and return acceptable returns to the PPT.DIV holders.  Obviously making a perpetual loss renders the DIV shares worthless, but we're aiming not to incur losses with the change in payable interest rates.  This was well signalled even as early as the very first PPT.A issue - if the rates change, so do the payoffs.  Because we have voting shares with PPT.DIV, the motion is required to be put.

Thanks, I generally support the motion but am a little concerned that increasing the price could see the market look elsewhere.

I've just answered a pm and then saw the post and thought it might be worth repeating the bulk of the contents here, particularly because of the comment about the "market looking elsewhere" and certainly we have been watching the progress, success or otherwise of this venture keenly with each passing bond auction, and the growth in competitors.


_______________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________


The notion of just shutting up shop (ceasing) is not so straight forward because we have a duty to protect the interests of PPT.DIV holders and that includes those of us that have/are/do hold those shares.  Also, the current case is not one where we actually have an option to simply stop trading.  Pirate has not defaulted, and BS&T is continuing.  The only way we see that would be possible is if all of the outstanding shares were held by someone wishing to cancel them (say, if I held all 9000 DIV shares).

It was anticipated some months ago that the interest rate might change.  The choices in that circumstance would be to wind everything up (undesirable as people have invested in PPT.DIV for the profit share, and the underlying premise/operation can continue), or reset the payment based on the new interest rates (which we have determined is the best course of action at this time - pending some other other we had not thought of).

If the motion were to fail, the PPT offer would still take place.  For this week it would have around 3.5 weeks of 7% interest and one week of 5% or 6% depending on the size of the BS&T deposit (maybe 7% but less likely).  For the following week it would be 2.5 to 1.5 and buy the time we get to August it would all be on the new rates.  Leaving the current floor of 1.00 and paying 1.28 on maturity when income is 0.24 (say) would incur a loss and the PPT.DIV dividends would, of course, fall to zero.

The other big change in the PPT.x space has been the large group of copy-cat offers where people can buy large quantities of pass-through bonds.  That linked to the very large availability consumed by those offerings took a lot of value out of our business.  Having seen todays reaction, that looks set to continue.  Also, people do not appear to value the insurance - it has been derided as a gimmick by some, but fundamentally it seems people are all in on the BS&T risk, or invest somewhere else.  Back in late April and early May, the market was more concentrated, since then, bidding has been around 1.02, and that is not a profitable level going forward, so we have to do something now.  Certainly the auction this week should clearly indicate how buyers of the PPT.x bonds assess and value the changes.

Overall, Burt had a brilliant idea back in April and we (the six of us) collectively put in a lot of work to make something that did work, and put around 4000BTC at risk.  We had a lot of requests to make a share of the profits available and the best option was to segment the profits from the underlying capital and operations - and we did that.  There was potential for the whole thing to blow up (pirate default) and there still is, but it looks like BS&T is running a while longer yet.  However, competition has also come along with people prepared to run pass-throughs for virtually no margin.  In hindsight, we would have collectively been better off leaving 4k in BS&T.  But for now, PPT.x offerings are set to continue as there isn't an event that would cause or allow a winding up of the company.
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