Topic: . - page 4. (Read 6553 times)

Indeed....

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"How smart we say and law of the Lord with us here lie did indeed lie pen books:"

The only way a rational person should come to accept anything is to discover evidence that justifies accepting it. Broadly speaking, the only source of information we have about the world is sensory.

Say we constructed a machine that processed that information. By what means would we acquire the results that machine had gathered? If not by our senses, then how? So any mechanism you can imagine, ultimately, would reduce to sensory evidence. Senses are the only way the mind gathers information about the outside world.

You look through a microscope with your eyes. You hear a metal detector with your ears. Fundamentally, there is no difference between building a machine to gather data and moving something out of the way to see what's behind it.

I don't understand what you're saying. The point is, whatever proof you're imagining here doesn't yet exist.

I totally don't understand what this has to do with what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that rational people should reject faith and should only believe things and act on them in the presence of evidence. Otherwise, you are equally justifying being a good person because you think god wants you to and being a suicide bomber because you think god wants you to.

Plus, how is "you have to evidence to justify believing something" lazier than "you can believe whatever you want without having to justify it"? Faith is the lazy way to avoid having to actually understand the world.

Funny you should quote that without knowing what is really being said.  

"איכה תאמרו חכמים אנחנו ותורת יהוה אתנו אכן הנה לשׁקר עשׂה עט שׁקר ספרים׃"
"How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of Jehovah is with us? Behold, certainly the lying pen of the scribes hath made it falsehood."
(Darby Bible, Jeremiah 8:8 )
I guess you don't understand the ironic humor of Israelites in the Bible. The tomes you quote are from "pens of the translators" (scribes) who are supposed wise men.
Jeremiah was a prophet (not a bullfrog, incase you were wondering), who made many future predictions having to do with the end times. In that 8th chapter, notice how it begins: "At that time". It is a future date. When is that date? When they begin to uncover the bones of the kings of Judah. Sounds like an archeological expedition in Israel to me.
Your helping me prove my point by doing so. Thanks.

Reffering to brunic and myrkulS reponeses

My mind = Blown

I think this one, right here is probably the best of the bunch:


I assume you added the emphasis. It's a great quote. Which raises the question, if a footing of "kindness and equity" is to be desired, why do so many Islamic nations oppress their women?

I'm an atheist, and I'll speak for myself only. I don't need other atheist to tell me their "rules" of atheism, I don't care.

My own belief is that you should believe what you want, I don't care. Do your own thing, but never try to impose your own belief unto myself, never ever. I think, when you wake up in the morning, you need some faith in something. You need dreams or beliefs to be able to be productive and create something wonderful. Before, people used to convince themselves in believing in all the same crap. Every religion started as a cult with a fucked up prophet who had "visions". Today, with the wave of atheism, I think faith is becoming more personal and private than before. Instead of listening to your neighbor to know which crap to believe, you make your own crap to believe in.

As an atheist, I build my own vision of life, my own vision of the world by using different elements of our knowledge and mixing it with my own creativity. In a way, life is simply a bad trip on oxygen. So, in my opinion, worldview is established by using respect and discussion between individual minds, and this worldview can be changed anytime. We need to have different worldview, the more the better. Humanity lose its soul the day where everybody is under the same banner, the same worldview, the same truth.

Faith is a powerful tool, it is what build this world. Everything has been built on what humans believe. And like any tool, it gets better with any new version. Sticking your faith to one of the basic organized religion is like sticking to use Windows 1.0. Challenge it! Change it! Try Linux! Try Mac OS! Try what you hate! It's the only way to evolve your faith and your own mind. Because, in a way....monotheism evolved from polytheism, Christians evolve from Jews and Muslim evolved from Christians. Atheism is simply a peer-2-peer and decentralized faith.

But like I said, as an atheist, this is my own crap in which I believe, and I only share it. I don't really care in your faith, because it's yours, not mine.

The possibility exists that Deity is not yet observable, with modern technology, and yet, does exist, or has already been observed, and been mistaken for something else (quantum mechanics, etc). That's why I did not say I am an Atheist.

My religious beliefs are... complex.

If you could give me a few quotes on "the proper place of women" in Islam, like you have on Mohammed being the final prophet, I'd be appreciative. I don't really feel like sitting through a two-hour long lecture.

Unfortunately, I'm no scholar in Shariah law, so I don't have any specific information. All I have is the government policies of the countries who have claimed to follow Shariah. And, I gotta say, those don't look good. Of course, government policies don't have a great track record of following the ideals they claim...

I'm glad you mentioned science - science is limited to our limited observational perceptions (eyes, ears, touch, taste) don't we have to prove that our perceptions are exactly how we perceive them before we can prove science and all its decades of accumulative knowledge is truth?

With this in mind, how can any worldview be established if you can't prove that your perception/experience/accumulative knowledge is real/truth/unbreakable axioms to begin with?


References:
Proof doesn't equal truth
http://digipac.ca/chemical/proof/index.htm

The typical flippant response to this is the flying spaghetti monster religion. There is a lack of proof that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist.

On the contrary, an atheist applies the scientific method to his entire world-view. That includes religion, and since he cannot replicate a burning bush, or other deific manifestations, he declares the theory "there is a god" to be unprovable.

Very informative, and now I understand atheism at its core. Obviously I can read an neutral article on Wikipedia but nothing works like a one on one explanation.
So basically the only way an atheist will become to accept that their is a power that tends to the reality we live in is to experience a presence of deity by some means of sensory perception(seeing, hearing, or feeling a deity). I see that as counter-intuitive as there could be a possibility that no organism is able to scan or process an deity physically with out the creation of such machines to process such information; Maybe a machine out there could look at the deity in visual form and possibly process the infinite knowledge and wisdom in some manner that physical beings could understand, yet the "lack of proof" made all of humanity not invest in such devices because there is no proof.

So im confused... not to be offensive but isn't the idea of an atheist just really laziness with an excuse? ( Begin Rehtorical questions) Why try if it isn't already there? Why obtain water if it only exists in a seemingly unobtainable situation? (End rhetorical questions)

Can women be prophets?
Yes. Mirriam, the sister of Aaron was a prohetess. Exodus 15:20

Who can be a prophet?
Whom ever the Lord puts His spirit upon is a prophet. Numbers 11:29

How does God choose his prophets?
God will make Himself know to them in a vision and will speak to him in a dream. Numbers 12:6

Can a prophet be bad or evil?
Do not follow after a prophet who tells you to follow after other gods. Deuteronomy 13:1-3

What makes someone succeptable to becoming a prophet for God?
They are seers, today we call them psychics, who can become prophets for God. 1Samuel 9:9
Therefore, all prophets are phsychic, but not all phsychics are prophets of God.

Has God ever said he would no longer visit His spirit upon men?
Yes, but a specific group would be cut off. Those of the many nations who rise up against Mount Zion. Isaiah 29:8-10


The Koran contradicts the Bible. No where in the Torah does it say there will be no more prophets.

What do you do when the Koran contradicts a book you are told to believe in?
You must conclude that one of them is wrong, of course. I wonder which one is wrong?

All atheists necessarily have in common is a lack of belief in a deity. But if there were an overriding philosophy behind atheism, it would be this: Almost all of the world's major religions have in common the doctrine of faith -- that people should believe things in the absence of any rational justification and then act on those beliefs. The problem is that there is no rational way to decide what to believe and act on in the absence of any rational justification -- rationally, one belief is equal to another if they both have no rational justification.

I have no rational justification for believing that god wants me to be a good person. I have equally no rational justification for believing that god wants me to kill you. If you accept the doctrine that belief without rational justification is permissible and one should act on those beliefs, you are equally justifying the terrorist who chooses to believe god wants him to kill people as you are the Jew who chooses to believe god wants him to help his fellow men.

That is what atheism stands against, to the extent it stands against anything.

Well, that link doesn't give me many examples to work with, but it does advance this argument:

Don't get me wrong, I am tremendously thankful for the Islamic preservation of classical knowledge (and their improvement upon it). It just confuses me that a religion which openly acknowledges its basis in prior revelations would so vehemently deny the possibility of further revelations.

So...Moses was good for his time, Jesus was good for his, but Mohammed is for everybody, forever?

Convenient. Considering how much the world has changed around Islam, I'd say that life has left it behind. Like the religions before it, it's got some good points, and some useful advice remains, but many of the teachings are outdated, at best, and backward, at worst.

So what is your opinion of the Bahá'í Faith, which basically is a continuation of that; Islam 2.0, if you will?

Islam teaches that God has sent prophets before, Jesus, Moses, Mohammad, and Bahá'í simply states that it's time for a new one.

Please note, I'm neither Christian, Muslim, Bahá'í, or Atheist. I would just like your opinion on that faith, as it seems to me that it would be natural for someone who believes that Moses was superseded by Jesus was superseded by Mohammad to take that next step.

Here is my spin on the value of Islam and the Koran:

Muhamed did not write a book called the Koran, he spoke to people as he traveled. Those people whom he talked to wrote down some of what he said. After Muhameds death, people got together and fashioned the book now called the Koran. During the time of Muhamed, there was still a strong bitterness of Christians, which may have influenced the accurate retelling of Muhameds words. Then as time moved on, someone decided to authorize a single Koran (as there were 8 versions in circulation), of which the Koran authority destroyed any versions but the one they promoted. Today there are 5 known versions of the Koran still in existence.

In legal terms they call this type of evidence, unwitnessed indirect testimony, heresay and it is inadmisible as evidence. Many sayings were attributed to Muhamed and some may not have been his words or ideas.

My second point, Muhamedans believe in God, yet are unwilling to accept that God wrote a book called the Torah, where He is credited with penning at least 1 out of 5 books, as well as the 10 commandments.

I see you one one-sided argument website and raise you wikipedia commons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism


Please check your FUD at the door, thanks.