0% house edge, rake and comission - page 2.

actmyname

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Quote from: LuanX3 on March 24, 2018, 06:36:34 PM

there is still a chance these kinds of casinos can exist and make a profit.

I'm not denying that they can make a profit. Just that they are not profitable. There's a difference between winning at gambling and having a gambling game be winning for the player.

There is no argument to be had here since you're simply saying that casinos can get 'lucky' to deviate from the mean and make some profit. Again, begging the question.

Human emotions/other factors don't change the outcome of the wager. If the edge is 0%, the ev for both the casino and player are 1.00. That's it.

LuanX3

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Quote from: actmyname on March 22, 2018, 11:04:12 PM

Quote from: LuanX3 on March 22, 2018, 10:41:52 PM

But let's assume 10% of the players do get greedy and try to win back everything and fail, then that means the casino will be in profits from those 10%. Of course we can assume as well that there would be players the profit from the casino, but theoretically it would still be hard to defeat the casino with the limits in place.

Then, in this case, you are assuming that the variance is in the casino's favor. Expected value changes not based on the bet limits, nor the strategy. You are assuming that the casino has profited off players to prove that the casino is profitable. That is begging the question and is invalid.

Expected value is absolute.

Mathematically it is absolute and in a perfect scenario it will happen. But the fact is that it does not put into equation human emotions and other factors that greatly will change the outcome of the bets in the whole scenario. Indeed that 0% house edge will not be as profitable as the ones with house edge, but I am just disputing the argument that there is still a chance these kinds of casinos can exist and make a profit.

actmyname

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Spear the bees

Quote from: LuanX3 on March 22, 2018, 10:41:52 PM

But let's assume 10% of the players do get greedy and try to win back everything and fail, then that means the casino will be in profits from those 10%. Of course we can assume as well that there would be players the profit from the casino, but theoretically it would still be hard to defeat the casino with the limits in place.

Then, in this case, you are assuming that the variance is in the casino's favor. Expected value changes not based on the bet limits, nor the strategy. You are assuming that the casino has profited off players to prove that the casino is profitable. That is begging the question and is invalid.

Expected value is absolute.

LuanX3

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Quote from: actmyname on March 22, 2018, 09:27:29 AM

Quote from: LuanX3 on March 22, 2018, 04:07:00 AM

Theoretically, it is possible for a gambling site to profit from a 0% house edge gambling game. There are two reasons why, first is bet size limits and the house having more money than the player.

False. The rest of your post with the scenario does not matter.

It doesn't matter whether there are bet limits or if the house has more money than any given player (or heck, even all the players). If they bet some amount, they have an equal chance of winning and losing. That's it.

Greed doesn't matter. They could still very well win all their bets or lose all their bets. Once you get past this, it's easy to understand that with variance, martingale can end up with a player busting but when you consider the entire space of players (we'll call this S), it's different.

The expected value of the amount that S is returned is going to be 1. And this value is equivalent to the amount that the house gets: 1.

If statistically the house makes no money on each bet, how can you expect to profit regularly?
Hoping that individual players get greedy doesn't help because of the very question: what if they win? There isn't a house edge to make the chance of them losing more likely.

But the fact is that they cannot go over the bet limit. So in cases of martin gale they cannot perfectly use it.

It is correct that we cannot assume that every player will be greedy and they will gamble every penny they have until they lose, but the fact is that there will be players that will get greedy and try and chase their losses.

Assuming we get 1:1 losses and wins for the casinos and the players. With an expected value of 0, as you say. But let's assume 10% of the players do get greedy and try to win back everything and fail, then that means the casino will be in profits from those 10%. Of course we can assume as well that there would be players the profit from the casino, but theoretically it would still be hard to defeat the casino with the limits in place.

Vitolife

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Quote from: LuanX3 on March 22, 2018, 04:07:00 AM

Quote from: adaseb on March 22, 2018, 12:14:37 AM

Basically if a site has permantely zero house edge, I would steer clear. How are they making a profit?

It's acceptable for a site to have a promo where they have 0% house edge for a short while. However having it permantely it makes no sense.

Hence it might be a scam of some sort.

Theoretically, it is possible for a gambling site to profit from a 0% house edge gambling game. There are two reasons why, first is bet size limits and the house having more money than the player.

Imagine a situation, where a gambling does a martin gale system bets and the casino has a max bet of 1 BTC and lastly the gambler bets at 50% with 0.01BTC per bet. The scenario is that he cannot win against the house since there is still that chance that he will have a losing streak long enough to deplete his bankroll or reach the bet limit.

0.01
0.02
0.04
0.08
0.16
0.32
0.64
1.00

The gambler only needs to lose 8 times to reach the max. Even if you simulate this in a computer game with a lower starting bet or higher limits, it will result to a time that the gambler will have a long losing streak that would empty his bankroll.

The only problem is that the casino will not earn as much as the other casinos with house edge.

Yes, agree with this analysis. Even if the casino will not earn as much per player as casinos with house edge / rake, they will definitely attract more players - du to the fact their games will be viewed as fair play and there is no entry barrier with the rake/comission. It corresponds with their whitepaper where they expect to increase the token value with growing number of users. I expect, they will be able to raise quite substantial ammount during the ICO

actmyname

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Spear the bees

Quote from: LuanX3 on March 22, 2018, 04:07:00 AM

Theoretically, it is possible for a gambling site to profit from a 0% house edge gambling game. There are two reasons why, first is bet size limits and the house having more money than the player.

False. The rest of your post with the scenario does not matter.

It doesn't matter whether there are bet limits or if the house has more money than any given player (or heck, even all the players). If they bet some amount, they have an equal chance of winning and losing. That's it.

Greed doesn't matter. They could still very well win all their bets or lose all their bets. Once you get past this, it's easy to understand that with variance, martingale can end up with a player busting but when you consider the entire space of players (we'll call this S), it's different.

The expected value of the amount that S is returned is going to be 1. And this value is equivalent to the amount that the house gets: 1.

If statistically the house makes no money on each bet, how can you expect to profit regularly?
Hoping that individual players get greedy doesn't help because of the very question: what if they win? There isn't a house edge to make the chance of them losing more likely.

mOgliE

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Quote from: Black_bl on March 18, 2018, 03:20:29 PM

Hey players,
I was looking for opportunity between casinos and found two crypto project which claim that have 0% fees on games, named zeroedge and edgeless. Do you have any experience with them? I asked in their telegram groups, how their concept works, they answered me that their concept is based on their own cryptocurrency, that will grow with number of players and also that not every game will be with 0% fees. I still don't know if it's enough, maybe blockchain will spare some money, on the other hand, they should have big reserve to be able to run. What do you think, will these project successful?

There is no need to experiment such projects.

Let's be clear a casino is made to make money. No one creates a casino just for the fun.
So if they "claim" they have 0% fee, means 0% house edge... How do they earn money?
Of course tons of casinos sporadically drop their house edge to 0 for like 1 hour just to bring more players, but that's like the faucets it's just a marketing operation.

If a project claims to have 0% house edge you can be sure that they'll either run with your money or simply cheat on the house edge xD

Black_bl

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Quote from: Real14Hero on March 21, 2018, 02:12:45 PM

Through forum auctions of ad slots or some other way? Will people be actually interested in buying slots? And will it really be profitable as compared to keeping a minor house edge of something like 0.5%?

I'm not an expert on advertisement, but that's true Google is the biggest source and according their claim in June they will stop dealing with cryptos, on the other hand I can imagine, if you offer your place for banners to casinos and big betting sites, your revenue would be great. According to some research there are something around 300 millions (only over 5 millions related to crypto gambling) gamblers (sport betting, casinos, poker etc.) and 90% of them lose averagelly $350 per year...it's a huge sum of money, we of course don't know if these numbers are exact, and still this is only legal part...maybe only 15, 20 or 25% whole market. If some project would offer 50% own games with %0 and the rest with 0-1% fees, then the project can attract huge part of whole cake and be profitable (my opinion)

piloder

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Don't know much about others but edgeless have their own token on top of ethereum smart contract https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/edgeless/
They have collected good amount of ETH during their ICO which serves as bankroll for the casino and they are sharing their profit with all ICO investors.

Zero edge always don't mean that casino will be in loss and you will win, low to nil house edge will only increase your winning % when you will win. If you will loss you will loss your full bet so it depends on your luck. Also as they have said not all of their games have zero edge.

LuanX3

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Quote from: adaseb on March 22, 2018, 12:14:37 AM

Basically if a site has permantely zero house edge, I would steer clear. How are they making a profit?

It's acceptable for a site to have a promo where they have 0% house edge for a short while. However having it permantely it makes no sense.

Hence it might be a scam of some sort.

Theoretically, it is possible for a gambling site to profit from a 0% house edge gambling game. There are two reasons why, first is bet size limits and the house having more money than the player.

Imagine a situation, where a gambling does a martin gale system bets and the casino has a max bet of 1 BTC and lastly the gambler bets at 50% with 0.01BTC per bet. The scenario is that he cannot win against the house since there is still that chance that he will have a losing streak long enough to deplete his bankroll or reach the bet limit.

0.01
0.02
0.04
0.08
0.16
0.32
0.64
1.00

The gambler only needs to lose 8 times to reach the max. Even if you simulate this in a computer game with a lower starting bet or higher limits, it will result to a time that the gambler will have a long losing streak that would empty his bankroll.

The only problem is that the casino will not earn as much as the other casinos with house edge.

adaseb

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Basically if a site has permantely zero house edge, I would steer clear. How are they making a profit?

It's acceptable for a site to have a promo where they have 0% house edge for a short while. However having it permantely it makes no sense.

Hence it might be a scam of some sort.

Vitolife

newbie

Activity: 64

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Quote from: Aleister Crowley on March 21, 2018, 01:15:57 PM

Quote from: Black_bl on March 18, 2018, 03:20:29 PM

Hey players,
I was looking for opportunity between casinos and found two crypto project which claim that have 0% fees on games, named zeroedge and edgeless. Do you have any experience with them? I asked in their telegram groups, how their concept works, they answered me that their concept is based on their own cryptocurrency, that will grow with number of players and also that not every game will be with 0% fees. I still don't know if it's enough, maybe blockchain will spare some money, on the other hand, they should have big reserve to be able to run. What do you think, will these project successful?

LOL, I do not believe in a project that says that owns a 0% edge house, that's the way they lure enthusiasts. and in the end they will only do a big scam, here I feel I have never seen the history of zeroedge and edgeless game slots, though I hope that this is true and the project is a success

Well, they do not plan only the zero edge/commission but to use the blockchain to change the way the industry operates - using smart contracts distributed over the blockchain to remove the house edge as the casinos cannot skew the smart contracts - this could attract lot of new users, also the zero edge would attract new players - also from the poorer countries so the token value growth as more users join would work with growing user base. If you look at the Bitcoin growth with growth of users, even if they grow slower would generate enough funds to run at zero edge.

actmyname

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Spear the bees

Quote from: kmxl45 on March 21, 2018, 03:44:35 AM

[Zero] House edge/rakes makes incredible money for casinos, huge income. If the developers of ZeroEdge aren't greedy, the model can work based on tokens price.

Wrong. Wrong, wrong wrong. You statistically make no profit. And you have no reason to—there's no house edge—nothing is in your favor. There are no business prospects here because you don't have any reasonable means to gain a steady/sustainable stream of revenue.

Sure, 0% edge promotions for limited periods of time can bring in players. However, if you always have ≤0% edge then there's nothing to be had (unless you're scamming).

The proposal of having advertisements is stupid for a variety of reasons. Remember that with 0% edge, players can take more money from you than you gain from ads; you're not running a faucet so they can wager larger amounts.

Real14Hero

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Quote from: MatrixMining on March 21, 2018, 01:22:52 PM

Quote from: Black_bl on March 21, 2018, 08:09:50 AM

Quote from: Real14Hero on March 21, 2018, 05:38:55 AM

Quote from: kmxl45 on March 19, 2018, 07:38:58 AM

Quote from: Beroximos on March 19, 2018, 05:55:29 AM

Their concept looks very well. I think this could have a success and attract a lot of players and investors as well.

I like this concept too. 0% edge is possible if they will have a stabile income of new players and tokens price will increase. The first problem will be that people need to understand this is possible, after it they will be one of the best. Nobody wants to pay extra fees and everybody wants to fair chance beat the casino.

Ofc the players will say that this model suits them, but who in the world operator will be willing to operate such a casino on a large scale?

Now the next level of so called "attracting people" and new members will be having house edge in "negative". That might gain a lot of traction, but again, who will run this? You ? Me?

If someone can manage to build this is a large scale, there will be one additional source of earnings - advertising. If you reach dozens of thousands stable players / visitors your earnings will be from advertising huge, but you're right, there is a need to have a lot of money to be able to build this large scale casino

That's true, advertising can bring serious additional income when they'll be running on a large scale. As for the second part, I think they should have enough reserve from the ICO to live of in the first months and build a large scale casino.

Well advertisement money sounds something very awesome, but from where to get advertisements? Its almost impossible to publish google ads on your site (you need to have a license to publish google ads on your gambling website), so how do you plan on brining advertisements?

Through forum auctions of ad slots or some other way? Will people be actually interested in buying slots? And will it really be profitable as compared to keeping a minor house edge of something like 0.5%?

MatrixMining

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Quote from: Black_bl on March 21, 2018, 08:09:50 AM

Quote from: Real14Hero on March 21, 2018, 05:38:55 AM

Quote from: kmxl45 on March 19, 2018, 07:38:58 AM

Quote from: Beroximos on March 19, 2018, 05:55:29 AM

Their concept looks very well. I think this could have a success and attract a lot of players and investors as well.

I like this concept too. 0% edge is possible if they will have a stabile income of new players and tokens price will increase. The first problem will be that people need to understand this is possible, after it they will be one of the best. Nobody wants to pay extra fees and everybody wants to fair chance beat the casino.

Ofc the players will say that this model suits them, but who in the world operator will be willing to operate such a casino on a large scale?

Now the next level of so called "attracting people" and new members will be having house edge in "negative". That might gain a lot of traction, but again, who will run this? You ? Me?

If someone can manage to build this is a large scale, there will be one additional source of earnings - advertising. If you reach dozens of thousands stable players / visitors your earnings will be from advertising huge, but you're right, there is a need to have a lot of money to be able to build this large scale casino

That's true, advertising can bring serious additional income when they'll be running on a large scale. As for the second part, I think they should have enough reserve from the ICO to live of in the first months and build a large scale casino.

Aleister Crowley

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Quote from: Black_bl on March 18, 2018, 03:20:29 PM

Hey players,
I was looking for opportunity between casinos and found two crypto project which claim that have 0% fees on games, named zeroedge and edgeless. Do you have any experience with them? I asked in their telegram groups, how their concept works, they answered me that their concept is based on their own cryptocurrency, that will grow with number of players and also that not every game will be with 0% fees. I still don't know if it's enough, maybe blockchain will spare some money, on the other hand, they should have big reserve to be able to run. What do you think, will these project successful?

LOL, I do not believe in a project that says that owns a 0% edge house, that's the way they lure enthusiasts. and in the end they will only do a big scam, here I feel I have never seen the history of zeroedge and edgeless game slots, though I hope that this is true and the project is a success

TonnyMontana

newbie

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Interesting I just had a phone call with a friend. He said:I puts some money in it.I feel potencial😀

paparadis

newbie

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This is a really good project. It will join many many people in the very near future.

Black_bl

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Quote from: Real14Hero on March 21, 2018, 05:38:55 AM

Quote from: kmxl45 on March 19, 2018, 07:38:58 AM

Quote from: Beroximos on March 19, 2018, 05:55:29 AM

Their concept looks very well. I think this could have a success and attract a lot of players and investors as well.

I like this concept too. 0% edge is possible if they will have a stabile income of new players and tokens price will increase. The first problem will be that people need to understand this is possible, after it they will be one of the best. Nobody wants to pay extra fees and everybody wants to fair chance beat the casino.

Ofc the players will say that this model suits them, but who in the world operator will be willing to operate such a casino on a large scale?

Now the next level of so called "attracting people" and new members will be having house edge in "negative". That might gain a lot of traction, but again, who will run this? You ? Me?

If someone can manage to build this is a large scale, there will be one additional source of earnings - advertising. If you reach dozens of thousands stable players / visitors your earnings will be from advertising huge, but you're right, there is a need to have a lot of money to be able to build this large scale casino

Beroximos

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The time will show us if it is a good project or not. I believe it will be good. Just my opinion.

Topic: 0% house edge, rake and comission - page 2. (Read 2263 times)