Topic: [100 dots] seed phrase backup - page 3. (Read 782 times)

Very helpful post, thanks. No I wasn't gonna do it manually, but I don't have super efficient hardware as well. I only have the basic tools (hammer etc).

To be absolutely honest with you, I personally choose paper (for fast back-up) and metal for durable back-up. So I back up my wallets twice (paper & metal).

There is only one way out - to combine solutions for different conditions. That is, select the metal that will be most resistant to the conditions you expect. If you are afraid of a fire that could harm your plate, then it is better to choose a stainless steel type that has the best fire resistance. If there is no threat of ignition, then you can limit yourself to aluminum, but you should take into account the fact that aluminum is susceptible to alkalis, which dissolve the oxide (protective) film on the surface of the aluminum. For example, alkali may be present in the soil and therefore, it is a bad place to store an aluminum plate. Or you will have to think about a way to protect this metal with additional means (paint or other protective coating).

And even better - diversification: several plates from different types of metal. Paranoid people (who believe that the more backups there are, the higher the chances that one of them will be found by strangers.) can hide them all in one place.


The density of copper is 2.5-3 units on the Mohs scale, and stainless steel is 4.5, and here you are right in saying that stainless steel is more difficult to process. But you weren’t going to do this manually, right? Now it is not a problem to find a power tool for these purposes that will allow you to easily interact even with titanium.

LoyceV, yeah it will look nice, but considering o_e_l_e_o's comment, I will stick with my stainless steel. Btw, I have edited the picture to look nicer  But still I only paid 20 euros for this whole setup.

Better than aluminum, worse than stainless steel. Copper's melting point, reactivity, and durability, all lie between the relevant numbers for aluminum and stainless steel.

Here's a copper product which Lopp tested: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/safe-seed/

As you can see, it does show far more damage than a stainless steel product, but the data was still readable. Although that might not be the case depending on how you stamp/engrave/whatever your data, though.

I just did a quick eBay search and found a 10cm x 10cm x 4mm titanium plate for $20. That's even cheaper than I imagined. I'm sure you can probably find similar.

This is what I love about this forum. Get useful knowledge freely as long as I am willing to read one post after another like the one in this thread.
I don't have enough memory for all the knowledge you have.
You always care about security and other things that are important to discuss by providing great discussions.

For me, discussions about wallet security and securing seed transactions are more important than other confusing discussions.

If my post is annoying and ruins your great discussion, please delete it.

I didn't know I can just order titanium sheets online

See Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers, and CTRL-F "copper". I can imagine it looks quite nice to have 100 dots in copper.

You can find plenty of titanium nowadays. Just buy an iPhone and get the titanium for your seed backup. It's going to give the iPhones a reason to exist.  (Feel free to NOT comment, I just don't like iPhones a lot)

Do you guys have any idea in regards to copper? I found some washers made of copper and I thought, why not give it a try? It is more easy to carve than stainless steel.

Aluminum is a very poor choice, and I wouldn't recommend ever using it for this purpose. It is weak and highly malleable, meaning it is easily deformed, bent, or broken. It has a low melting point, well below temperatures reached in an average domestic fire. It is highly reactive and very prone to corrosion.

Have a look at how aluminum based devices fared with Lopp's stress tests: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/ellipal-mnemonic-metal/

Good quality stainless steel is the best trade off between price and durability. If price is no object, then go for titanium.

What about local blacksmiths' or metalworkers' workshops or artisans? They typically have a stash of scrap metal in their stockpiles, which could be perfect for this project.
Aluminum is a good choice due to its ease of processing, but, of course, stainless steel is a much better solution in case of a disaster. Most aluminum plates would likely be completely destroyed in a typical house fire, although they're still a much better choice than paper, wood, or plastic by a long shot.

You're not alone. It's not something you find at the local Home Depot here. I could order aluminium online, in any size I want, but haven't tried it. Next best would be an old oven plate (impossible to clean) or the side of the washing machine. Both are bad for my marriage

That just means you have to use a bigger hammer

Well it's not so easy here. But thanks. I was mainly just expressing a difficulty I have, rather than actually asking. But I appreciate the answer!

In regards to Jlopp's reviews, I have been thinking about buying this one: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/cryptonumeris-plate-s/ since I have the metal letters already.

For the time being, I have created a custom backup with the washers (I 've seen it a lot in this forum). Looks good, but kind of difficult to read.

Any decent hardware store should either have something in stock, or be able to order/cut something to your specifications. I prefer to use a local store, but even the generic big brand stores here will have something suitable: https://www.lowes.com/search?searchTerm=metal+plate

Don't know where you live, but I would assume most people would have a store somewhere in their local area which could provide a suitably sized piece of stainless steel. And if not, then I guess you could order one of the proprietary devices: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/

Is it only me that find it extremely difficult to find a nice, clean, proper-sized cut piece of metal?

I want to test this idea, as my secondary backup method for my single sig wallet.

If this works properly, I would also try to generate a similar pattern for my passphrase. Only problem is that I would need to add symbols, numbers and both capital and small letters. I will think about it and I will let you know.

As I have mentioned in my first message  one can project the light that has passed trough holes on the surface of  CCD matrix, then assign coordinates of that matrix to   letters that correspond to the certain holes . This way you eliminate the need to use a printed template.

And don't worry about the luminous intensity needed for this. The plates with drilled holes are used to map the  long-distance galaxies of Universe  by exactly  the same technique I have suggested.  

https://jlopp.github.io give it a good review  https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/attenuo/ with Crush, Corrosion, Heat Tests You must be careful in choosing the thickness so that the hammer can make a clear impact and at the same time be very deep to appear in case of shocks like this.


My eyesight is not good so I like the Steel Washer. It takes up less space, can be easily hidden, and gets the job done.

The disadvantage being your plate no longer has a blank rear side, so cannot be bolted on to something "face down" to make it appear like any other metal bracket or joint.

I'm also not convinced that trying to line up your plate with a printed template and line up a powerful enough light with each hole to get a clear point projected on the template in the right place is going to be any easier than just doing as Loyce has suggested.

It is not a problem if you have a mini drill press (I have such machine, acquired for  less than $100 on Amazon) and  the drilling bits made from the hardened steel. One - two bits would be enough to make one hundred holes. Sure, it would take some time to make 100 holes but the advantages of them over depressions on the plate surface are obvious for all  potential cases when such encrypted plate could be used.

In my experience, I'd break too many 1 mm drill bits doing this.

I appreciate your solution on the given  matter.

In my view,  it can be even advanced and instead of applying  punches to relevant places one could drill the small holes there. Then, at decoding, one can illumine the face site of the plate and get the optical   signals from reverse side, head those signals to CCD matrix and get the restored SEED. Sure, some extra decoding soft would be needed to perform the final operation but to develop it is not a matter at all.

Depends on your tools, I suppose. Lopp managed it: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/bitplate/

Buy 20 such plates. Use one to stamp your seed phrase. Then use all 20 in a building project, such as to join two pieces of wood together, with the seed phrase obviously pointing inwards so it appears no different to any of the others. Or go in to your roof/cellar/foundations/crawl space/floorboards/whatever and just screw it (face down) on to some beam/joist/rafter/truss/whatever. No thief is going to stumble across that by mistake, and will only know to look for it if your opsec has completely failed.