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Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool - page 302. (Read 2591971 times)

member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
Wish I had a solution.
Personally, I don't think a solution is all that hard, it just requires a little press advocacy and some determination by a small handful of folks.  I also think that the ball has started rolling in that direction, thanks to windpath's efforts to date, and if momentum can be kept up and others pitch in to help out, it should be fine.  To that end, here's what my solution suggestion would be:

1) Get the project away from reliance on forrestv, which is already happening.  Again, nothing personal, but if he's not committed with or without donations, having it rest with one single person is detrimental, and as we have seen stunts growth horribly.
2) Re-work the p2pool project pages, sites, and get the important info updated - how to get it, how to set it up, where to go for answers, list of nodes and peers - need to be cleaned up and _maintained_ so that it's relevant.  This at least in part is happening, a-la windpath.
3) The hardest and probably most controversial - change the mindset of the pool from "open, 0%" to "proprietor-owned (note I didn't say proprietary, slight but important semantic difference) with minimal fee (1-1.5%)".

#3 I think is the answer to address the major problems facing the pool.  Open source and free will only take any project to a certain level, as long as people are willing to donate to foster a better cause.  I don't think this works in the BTC world, since we're all doing this for one reason - to mine BTC and make money, not to cure cancer or find alien life.

What's the biggest difference between proprietary pools and p2pool?  Proprietary pools have an entity (person, business, etc) behind them driving their pool to be better, because it attracts new miners and ultimately helps their bottom line.  That's the fundamental "problem" with p2pool - the ideology is great, but call a spade a spade in this case and admit the reality that without reward, you're not going to get a lot of people to do things to help beyond some forum posts.

I would suggest the only way to have this work is treat it like a true O.S. project - form a core group of members as caretakers of p2pool (you can easily see who could be a candidate by their actions).  Then change the code to remove the .5% donation to forrestv and replace with a 1% donation to an escrowed account overseen by the core group.  From this 1% amount, you could do 3 things that could ensure the ongoing health of p2pool - 1) form bounties for developers to tackle the coding of fixes big and small, 2) reward public pool node/peer operators for providing their time, services and resources maintaining high quality nodes that all miners can use and finally 3) re-distribute the leftover percentage directly to all the miners using the built-in reward/tip system already existing in p2pool.  This will provide a mechanism for properly funded development, and rewards to all who are doing their part to use p2pool and help it grow and flourish.


full member
Activity: 125
Merit: 100
Dat spike.. same thing on mine yesterday. Fun with share diff north of 40000 huh? Everyone left but me.
lol

In other news.. my expected payout is very nice today. We need to hit some blocks!

In the chance this miner is on the thread, drop me a line....


legendary
Activity: 1258
Merit: 1027
In the chance this miner is on the thread, drop me a line....

legendary
Activity: 1361
Merit: 1003
Don`t panic! Organize!
GBT like that should not be that bad. You have to be VERY unlucky to get 50% shares in 0.5 second window after new block...
member
Activity: 76
Merit: 10
My GetBlockTemplate Latency is about 0.35 second ... is that kinda slow?

Damnit got 6 shares , 3 were orphaned ....................... I am wondering ...
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250

I wonder how much that is if you weight it by the bitcoin price at the time it was donated.


That's completely irrelevant.

It is only irrelevant if every bitcoin has been kept and still owned today.
If they've been spend, then their value is what is was when it was spent, almost certainly much less than today, for most of them.
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0

I wonder how much that is if you weight it by the bitcoin price at the time it was donated.

That's completely irrelevant.

Why do you think that? People have to pay their bills in fiat. So if you're working out what someone 'earned' from their work doesn't the exchange rate to USD matter?

I don't know but I imagine that back in 2011 Forrest made p2pool not for the money. But I think the world has changed since then. A lot of the modern miners spending $1,000s on new asics, the makers of those asics and the commercial pools attracting them are doing it primarily for the money.

Wish I had a solution.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Watch out for the "Neg-Rep-Dogie-Police".....

I wonder how much that is if you weight it by the bitcoin price at the time it was donated.


That's completely irrelevant.
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
Sorry, but that statement is completely false. I suggest you re-read the entire history of the situation first before posting that kind of stuff....& you obviously don't understand what Open Source is, what it offers, what it represents, how it works or what it stands for.

I wasn't clear what I meant perhaps. I agree there is no way p2pool (or bitcoin) would work on a closed source basis. It has to be open for large number of reasons.

My 'problem' with open source for p2pool, for want of a better word, is that developers cannot enforce users of the software to pay for the development effort. So free as in speech and not free as in beer. While lots and lots of opensource projects are done for the love of the craft I'm not sure how that would work for something like p2pool.

I guess you could say the same about Bitcoin as a whole. But there are ways for developers supporting the bitcoin network to get paid something for their effort.

These are forrestv's addresses that he gets donations to:

https://blockchain.info/address/1Kz5QaUPDtKrj5SqW5tFkn7WZh8LmQaQi4 Total Received 210.78862928 BTC
https://blockchain.info/address/1J1zegkNSbwX4smvTdoHSanUfwvXFeuV23 Total Received 36.7754832 BTC
http://ltc.blockr.io/address/info/LeD2fnnDJYZuyt8zgDsZ2oBGmuVcxGKCLd Total received 1,709.79411620 LTC

..as of 21st June - you can click the addresses to see the latest balances.

I wonder how much that is if you weight it by the bitcoin price at the time it was donated. Either way it's maybe not enough to expect someone with the necessary skill to put in the amount of effort required.
member
Activity: 76
Merit: 10
i've read from wiki that payment is to last n shares where n is the smaller of :
1. 3x the work needed to generate a block;
2. some 8640 shares (3 days)??

which ever is smaller......

so in practice each share can only live for something like 1.5 days only right Huh can someone explain how situation 1 above works??? how did the system determins the average works needed to generate 3 blocks??? actual or predicted???
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Watch out for the "Neg-Rep-Dogie-Police".....
Hard to see a good solution if it's to be open source too. Any attempt by a developer to gain a reward for their efforts can be undone with a quick hack.

WHAT?!   Huh
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Watch out for the "Neg-Rep-Dogie-Police".....
As for the development of p2pool, what version should we use??? i have downloaded the versikn 13.4 from source, but i see some public nodes use strange versions.

For BTC mining the source from git is the correct one  Smiley
member
Activity: 76
Merit: 10
As for the development of p2pool, what version should we use??? i have downloaded the versikn 13.4 from source, but i see some public nodes use strange versions.
sr. member
Activity: 379
Merit: 250
Welcome to dogietalk.bs
Hard to see a good solution if it's to be open source too. Any attempt by a developer to gain a reward for their efforts can be undone with a quick hack.

Solutions that require altruism from miners are possibly doomed to fail?

Equally I can't see why a talented coder would work hard to support a system making everyone else money except him.

Sorry, but that statement is completely false. I suggest you re-read the entire history of the situation first before posting that kind of stuff....& you obviously don't understand what Open Source is, what it offers, what it represents, how it works or what it stands for.

As for the "making money" thing:


These are forrestv's addresses that he gets donations to:

https://blockchain.info/address/1Kz5QaUPDtKrj5SqW5tFkn7WZh8LmQaQi4 Total Received 210.78862928 BTC
https://blockchain.info/address/1J1zegkNSbwX4smvTdoHSanUfwvXFeuV23 Total Received 36.7754832 BTC
http://ltc.blockr.io/address/info/LeD2fnnDJYZuyt8zgDsZ2oBGmuVcxGKCLd Total received 1,709.79411620 LTC

..as of 21st June - you can click the addresses to see the latest balances.

Suggesting it be closed source would be suicide - just ridiculous.... Roll Eyes
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
I don't think this is entirely true... Depends on the circumstances.

Nope.. that message is fine. No issues.

I have got a lot of this message on my node:

Punishing share for "Block-stale detected .......

Does this mean anything bad?

newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
Hard to see a good solution if it's to be open source too. Any attempt by a developer to gain a reward for their efforts can be undone with a quick hack.

Solutions that require altruism from miners are possibly doomed to fail?

Equally I can't see why a talented coder would work hard to support a system making everyone else money except him.
sr. member
Activity: 379
Merit: 250
Welcome to dogietalk.bs
The fact that the OP header still says 600TH pretty much sums the situation up I'm afraid........ Wink
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
Quote
We're pretty much at that point already - most operators have disabled all donations, and there's a partial vicious circle that's spawned from it (although I personally think the ship was sailing in this direction before donations started disappearing)

Yeah, I read some of that. I saw the rate of development had tailed off and the issues with some mining hardware. Hadn't realised how much of an issue that was though. Will be interesting to see how the p2pool community deals with the lack of development. Would be a huge shame if it collapses.

Actually I was really tempted to try to reimplement some of p2pool in a systems language like go. Both as a bit of a fun project and also to learn the protocol. I couldn't find any documentation on the protocol beyond the python source though and it doesn't look the easiest to follow.

Quote
Me personally I now run my own node, because I thankfully have the resources to do so.  I was on BTCGuild paying 2% before switching to p2pool (went to coincadence first, then built my own node), so quite honestly .5% was less than what I was getting dinged for so it would have been fine if that was the case.  I just personally think it'll be a hard hump to get over since most are already used to seeing 0% nodes.

Windpath very graciously sent me a PM to advise that I was actually paying Forrestv 0.005% by accident instead of 0.5%. I need to see the config file to work out how I messed that up! But as it turns out it was a nil donation anyway - sorry about that Roll Eyes

I think that for some people there isn't a net benefit to running a proper node. If they are running one at home then are probably hidden costs like less efficient mining and orphan shares which add up. For instance having ISP QOS filtering and firewalls or random middle of the night network maintenance downtime etc etc. Not to mention the potential security risks of opening up a home computer to the wider internet. You wouldn't believe how many Chinese hackers try to hack these servers every hour when I look at the firewall logs - scary stuff.

Where people give the service away for 0% fee like coincadence then that's going to be pretty hard to beat competitively but there will only be so many miners that can connect to that before the amount of money he's giving away will make it untenable. Good advertising for the excellent price ticker service though and a good way to support the community so I'm all for it.

In competitive spirit, seeing as the hashrate on my node is currently 0, I can offer a highly competitive fee reduction to 0.55% (by stiffing forrestv). I don't even have to change the config file!! Smiley

When I get a chance later today I'll set it to 0%. It's not really about the money so I'm happy to run the nodes for several months without any income.  I don't like the way things are going with GHash etc and without p2pool being a credible alternative for larger miners it will die out.

It would be great to get some evidence that a stable and well connected node can pay for itself in improved mining revenue over a homebrew solution.

Cheers
Paul
member
Activity: 76
Merit: 10
Not so lucky with the 5Th/s (12 Ant S3s) setting ......

Mined around 15 hours after I restarted the node ... 6 shares (2 ophened ...)  Furthermore, 2 of the "good share" appeared to be mined by my Cointerras when they hop between the pools during fail-over...

So ... I am experiencing similar problem, where the Ants are not getting in shares as they should be .... it's like 3 times less effective than it should be.....

I have temporary shut my node down, and mine with Discuss Fish for the time being, before I get off work and carry out further trials tonight.



BTW, I set the followings
(i) --give-author 0 -a [a remote payout address]
(ii) Ants mining using separate names (e.g. Ant1, Ant2, Ant3 ... Ant12)
(iii) the node and the miners are in 2 separate physical location, but not too far away (20 min ride distance)

Will these seriously affect the mining performance?  I know (iii) will hurt a bit, but how about (i) and (ii) ?
full member
Activity: 125
Merit: 100
bitcoinbearhk how is it going? Got an update on that 5 Th/s? I have had a good day. Defaults on s3's. I'm done messing with it. It works.
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