1.7 billion people are still Unbanked; chances for bitcoin

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Quote from: Findingnemo on June 27, 2023, 01:11:21 PM

We can buy Bitcoin from ATM but look at OP's post he was talking about places where there isn't even banks reached so where there is no possibility of finding a Bitcoin ATM as well.

I wasn't responding to OP, I was replying to a user who mentioned

Quote from: Findingnemo on June 27, 2023, 01:11:21 PM

P2P deals too need banks or some kind of online wallet help to make the purchase possible when we are communicating over the internet.

Then it's not true P2P anymore and we should stop labeling all these solutions as being decentralized when you rely on a cental point that stores all your data and all your details forever. I've warned users numerous times that dealing with a guy on a pseudo P2P market is just as dangerous, you have a stranger collecting hundreds of bank details and accounts and you have a bank employee laughing how he can track with 101% accuracy every single trade this guy and his clients do.

Quote from: Findingnemo on June 27, 2023, 01:11:21 PM

I am aware that decentralisation is the vital part but for now it's highly inconvenient if someone decides to boycott banks and starts to live with only crypto so everything takes time and similar to that adoption of Bitcoin too will be gradual to take over the bank's place.

Exactly my point! You can't buy 3 cakes eat 4 of them, gift 2, and still have 6 of them in the fridge.

panganib999

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You have to consider the factors why these people aren't signed with a bank My Brother in Christ. I'm guessing that in this whole population study only a small margin of the people aren't trusting of the banks, while a larger portion of them aren't learned about the ins and outs of banking including how to set one up for themselves, and a good portion of these people have no savings or couldn't save money due to poverty or some other reason which leads them to not sign themselves with a bank. With that being said are you willing to gamble on the small amount of people who in the first place aren't even trusting of banks, and have them be aware of a cryptocurrency that in a layman's eyes is just another form of bank?

I'm not discouraging you or anything, but statistical data is moot when reality kicks in (even though statistics account for the real world).

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You have a bit of confusion with the information, since access does not necessarily have to do with a construction, depending on the country, access to banking can be done online, in fact it is a sum of everything in several countries, not just the infrastructure it is also about the way in which people access the Internet.

In any case, it is the "error" to want to associate any computer, news, aspect with bitcoin, when access to bitcoin is independent of those circumstances.

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But it's unfair to say people remain unbanked because banks are still using obsolete ways of giving their customers access to their funds...As far as I know, banks have gone the extra mile to use today's technology to make it easy for anybody to enjoy banking services from opening an account from your smartphone, to blocking cards, replacing ATM cards etc

But the major reason that could be behind people remaining unbanked could be because of maintenance fees and other hidden costs put on the banks clients..hence the reason for people shying away.

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Quote from: franky1 on June 26, 2023, 11:27:31 AM

instead they use non-traditional payment services.. such as m-mesa/alipay.. thus although unbanked. they can and do have access to the internet and cellular to make payments..

after travelling to many countries for years the hindrance of bitcoin is not technology.. but the political game plays of devs thinking that fee's need to be more then a coffee/pizza just so that it promotes people to move away from using bitcoin and instead into their corporate sponsored middle men service networks.

in short its the bitcoin fee that has become the biggest barrier of entry. not technology

Having lived and work in parts of the unbanked -- in fact, myself being practically unbanked during those periods -- I can only concur, and have said so myself. Fintech's had great success there, and because they filled a need, without requiring people to have what they couldn't already access.

But I would disagree at least partially (again, based on the interest I experienced from people there about crypto) that popularising Bitcoin was a matter of fees. Fees is a problem as a mass p2p payment solution, but still will vastly superior as a remittance option, which is still what people need and mpesa didn't solve (mainly because it didn't work cross border). Even as late as 2017 the majority of these unbanked I worked with had, at best, SMS technology, which was all that mpesa needed. When using Bitcoin is as easy or easier than whipping out that GPRS phone, it might yet see more users.

rby

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To be very sincere with you. I do not believe in the ideology of Bitcoin banking the unbanked. I believe it is even difficult for people to download a wallet in their phone to get bitcoin addresses to receive and send bitcoin rather than to open a bank account.

s so many countries you can just open a bank account by online means without visiting the banks. What I actually mean is that whoever at this present world, anyone that does not have an account number shows that the person is not that lettered and a very rural person. And if that is true, embracing bitcoin will even be more difficult for the person.

Bitcoin adoption is faster with the people that are already banked rather than the unbanked or uninformed persons in the rural dwelling.

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Quote from: Wimex on June 27, 2023, 01:01:10 PM

It is true that bitcoin would open a lot of doors for these people who are far from the city and do not have access to the bank and therefore to bank accounts, but there is also something that can prevent them from being beneficial, and that is that in addition to being far from the city, some sectors may not have internet as expected, so the use of it would be complicated, what's more, there may be some who don't even know that this currency exists. Older people live more in rural areas, because young people go to the city to change their lives, therefore, that would be the other factor against, older people do not know and it is difficult for them to manage these things. But in the event that they do have all these factors, it is a good alternative, which could change their lives, as long as they manage to buy and have access to it, because as some comment, bitcoin is for everyone, it is free, and It would be great if it could be used by these people.

These unbanked people are considered uneducated according to some comments on this thread and I want to ask from observation, every uneducated parent has an educated child that helps them interpret new technology and operate their phones too. That means if the educated person in their midst gets to introduce them to bitcoin they'll trust the process and give it a try, as they have a reason why they don't want to operate with banks. Although it's rare for bitcoiners to outreach 1.7billion people, but a good percentage of them will love to hold bitcoin or receive funds through bitcoin, once they confirm the legitimacy. Even the elderly people that expect funds from their children, often time they have a learned person that lives with them to carry out different errands including funds and finance.

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Quote from: stompix on June 27, 2023, 10:37:26 AM

Quote from: KiaKia on June 27, 2023, 10:10:26 AM

Quote from: Findingnemo on June 24, 2023, 01:25:50 PM

To be honest without bank account you can't even buy your bitcoin now for example if you have $100 worth of fiat in your hand and imagine the options of buying bitcoin without owning a bank account, it's kind of close to impossible job unless you can find someone in personal and exchange the cash when they sent BTC to your address.

That's true, every Bitcoin purchases starts with the bank, unless someone give him an Asic miner and he start mining Bitcoin direct to his wallet,

You can buy Bitcoins from an ATM, you can buy Bitcoins via P2P deals, it doesn't have to be a bank!
What did the first guys that tarded bitcoin used here, banks? Not even close, there were no exchanges and things still worked.

But that aside, it shows how shallow the belief that crypto is a bank killer, so basically you can't deal with crypto if you don't have a bank account in the first place, you can't take your profits, you can't exchange it with a centralized solution conveniently, so if we go further down this path, what's the point of decentralization when all the time you're entrusting your money to somebody else?
I don't know if it's ironic or plain sad!

We can buy Bitcoin from ATM but look at OP's post he was talking about places where there isn't even banks reached so where there is no possibility of finding a Bitcoin ATM as well. P2P deals too need banks or some kind of online wallet help to make the purchase possible when we are communicating over the internet.

I am aware that decentralisation is the vital part but for now it's highly inconvenient if someone decides to boycott banks and starts to live with only crypto so everything takes time and similar to that adoption of Bitcoin too will be gradual to take over the bank's place.

Wimex

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It is true that bitcoin would open a lot of doors for these people who are far from the city and do not have access to the bank and therefore to bank accounts, but there is also something that can prevent them from being beneficial, and that is that in addition to being far from the city, some sectors may not have internet as expected, so the use of it would be complicated, what's more, there may be some who don't even know that this currency exists. Older people live more in rural areas, because young people go to the city to change their lives, therefore, that would be the other factor against, older people do not know and it is difficult for them to manage these things. But in the event that they do have all these factors, it is a good alternative, which could change their lives, as long as they manage to buy and have access to it, because as some comment, bitcoin is for everyone, it is free, and It would be great if it could be used by these people.

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Quote from: Accardo on June 24, 2023, 12:54:17 PM

According to world bank 1.7 billion people ranging from 200 million in China and India each, 100 million range in Pakistan and Indonesia, 45 to 65 million range in Mexico, Bangladesh, Nigeria etc.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370892944_Bitcoin_Is_Full_of_Surprises

For the Indonesian state, people who have bitcoin must have a bank account. This is because in Indonesia it is prohibited to carry out trading transactions with cryptocurrencies. Even so, in Indonesia crypto is legal, legal as an asset, not currency. So if using crypto for trading activities will make us break the law.

Now to own crypto assets, we need to purchase them using a bank account. And since it is not possible to use it for trading, we need to exchange crypto assets to IDR, and need a bank account to make withdrawals

So even though in Indonesia there are still many who don't have a bank account, using crypto cannot be a solution. In fact, there are many digital banks in Indonesia and you can open a bank account using only your smartphone. But maybe people who don't have a bank account because they don't need one and live in the countryside

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Quote from: Accardo on June 24, 2023, 12:54:17 PM

According to world bank 1.7 billion people ranging from 200 million in China and India each, 100 million range in Pakistan and Indonesia, 45 to 65 million range in Mexico, Bangladesh, Nigeria etc. This shows that a lot of rural environments have no bank. Real estate, renting a building, is one strong marketing technique used by banks to garner customers in a place. And these stats proves that banks can't reach out to all rural environment. Bitcoin on the other hand, requires only a smart phone and internet connection to send and receive bitcoin anywhere in the world; no buildings needed. It also opens a portal for users in high corrupt countries, 68.9% of 180 countries, to keep their funds safe. In Sudan for instance, Government once forced into people's houses to seize and destroy their treasures.

Hence with 1.7 billion people staying unbanked, added to the increase of people who don't rely on banks, Bitcoin provides them with numerous options why they should use bitcoin for different purposes like sending money to relatives in different countries at a very low fee.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370892944_Bitcoin_Is_Full_of_Surprises

The information is true, but you should also keep in mind that in those rural areas the facility of internet is mostly absent, and without access to internet using of Bitcoin is impossible. Most of the people who belong to such areas have very little knowledge about technology, and gadgets, and for those people to adapt to Bitcoin isn't an easy thing. I know that in order to use Bitcoin you need a smartphone and internet connection, but with a smartphone and an internet connection you won't be able to purchase Bitcoin. Most people buy Bitcoin with digital form of fiat, and even that type of service is provided by banks.

No one sells Bitcoin for cash, and it's somewhat risky as well because those who are selling Bitcoin for cash could end up into prison if a country has banned Bitcoin. In current times banking system is still needed to purchase Bitcoin and we can't ignore that fact. I hope that in future the purchasing of Bitcoin won't be dependent on banks, but that thing can only happen if most people accept to trade cash or other physical items with Bitcoin.

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Bitcoin as a payment solution might be a good solution, but if it's used to answer financial-related problems, it might be very difficult to apply. The reason is because Bitcoin was not designed to be able to provide banking services to the public. And most of these unbanked people are people with low technological knowledge and are in rural areas, so using Bitcoin might be difficult for them. Moreover, the government will not allow that Bitcoin will be a solution for society, of course the government will prohibit the use of Bitcoin for people's financial needs. So the opportunity for Bitcoin to become a financial solution for millions of people globally seems to be quite a challenge.

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Quote from: Accardo on June 24, 2023, 12:54:17 PM

Hence with 1.7 billion people staying unbanked, added to the increase of people who don't rely on banks, Bitcoin provides them with numerous options why they should use bitcoin for different purposes like sending money to relatives in different countries at a very low fee.

These are good stats. I love reading publications that have a positive "feeling and attitude" towards Bitcoin. It gives us hope. However, the problem I have with people quoting numbers and drawing conclusions is that these data and analysis may have been gotten from a secondary source.

I live in Nigeria and I'll tell you for free that despite our population of over 200m people and the number of those unbanned it an illusion to think that Bitcoin and bank the unbanked. The unbanked are the uneducated at the high school level. They are those living in rural areas without electricity, no English , good roads, portable water, and internet connectivity.

For Bitcoin to bank the unbanked, these barriers need to be fixed. Realistically speaking, I don't think Bitcoin can do this.

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Quote from: stompix on June 27, 2023, 10:37:26 AM

You can buy Bitcoins from an ATM, you can buy Bitcoins via P2P deals, it doesn't have to be a bank!
What did the first guys that tarded bitcoin used here, banks? Not even close, there were no exchanges and things still worked.

But that aside, it shows how shallow the belief that crypto is a bank killer, so basically you can't deal with crypto if you don't have a bank account in the first place, you can't take your profits, you can't exchange it with a centralized solution conveniently, so if we go further down this path, what's the point of decentralization when all the time you're entrusting your money to somebody else?
I don't know if it's ironic or plain sad!

Decentralization is still key, the story hasn't changed. The current problem with Bitcoin and crypto is that there is still no clear way to onboard people. A lot of things are still being figured out. P2P played its role to onboard even more people to crypto but we still have some things to figure out.

Make Bitcoin and crypto tx fees < banks and other traditional institutions. This assumes that fees continue to stay ultra-low and the system is able to scale effectively even as the number of users and transactions increases.
Make Bitcoin and crypto onboarding experience and products as intuitive as possible. The majority of people in unbanked regions have no idea what a private key is, cryptography, etc. People tend to stay away from something they don't understand.
We still have a lot of things to figure out in terms of infrastructure, on/off ramp options and more.

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Quote from: Accardo on June 24, 2023, 12:54:17 PM

Hence with 1.7 billion people staying unbanked, added to the increase of people who don't rely on banks, Bitcoin provides them with numerous options why they should use bitcoin for different purposes like sending money to relatives in different countries at a very low fee.

I don't think it's that simple in terms of giving all these people the opportunity to complete financial transactions. People in remote rural areas are often illiterate and do not have access to the Internet. It means that they do not have a bank account, this is normal and understandable to some extent, but do not expect that they will have sufficient capabilities to use the Internet.
Also, the most important point is that enabling them to use the Internet means that it will end their financial isolation, because in any case they are forced to deal with local financial institutions (which are not available in their regions) to benefit from cash because their countries often do not support Bitcoin payments.

stompix

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Quote from: KiaKia on June 27, 2023, 10:10:26 AM

Quote from: Findingnemo on June 24, 2023, 01:25:50 PM

To be honest without bank account you can't even buy your bitcoin now for example if you have $100 worth of fiat in your hand and imagine the options of buying bitcoin without owning a bank account, it's kind of close to impossible job unless you can find someone in personal and exchange the cash when they sent BTC to your address.

That's true, every Bitcoin purchases starts with the bank, unless someone give him an Asic miner and he start mining Bitcoin direct to his wallet,

You can buy Bitcoins from an ATM, you can buy Bitcoins via P2P deals, it doesn't have to be a bank!
What did the first guys that tarded bitcoin used here, banks? Not even close, there were no exchanges and things still worked.

But that aside, it shows how shallow the belief that crypto is a bank killer, so basically you can't deal with crypto if you don't have a bank account in the first place, you can't take your profits, you can't exchange it with a centralized solution conveniently, so if we go further down this path, what's the point of decentralization when all the time you're entrusting your money to somebody else?
I don't know if it's ironic or plain sad!

Quote from: franky1 on June 26, 2023, 11:27:31 AM

many of these rural communities in africa, china and india do not need cabled utility..
they have mini solar panels to charge cell phones which operate through cheap to set up cellular towers..

these days africa, india, china have faster more reachable internet than villages in the US/UK

Ever been to one? But be heaven on earth, free electricity, cheap and fast internet, no need for banks, what could you ask more?

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Quote from: Findingnemo on June 24, 2023, 01:25:50 PM

To be honest without bank account you can't even buy your bitcoin now for example if you have $100 worth of fiat in your hand and imagine the options of buying bitcoin without owning a bank account, it's kind of close to impossible job unless you can find someone in personal and exchange the cash when they sent BTC to your address.

Then how about spending the Bitcoin without converting it into fiat, gift cards just spent as BTC for exchange of goods the chances are too low as well so as of now people in the rural areas who doesn't have a bank account are not going to be the users of Bitcoin.

That's true, every Bitcoin purchases starts with the bank, unless someone give him an Asic miner and he start mining Bitcoin direct to his wallet, Eve if this is what's happening it will get to a time where he will need to sell his Bitcoin and that's going to happen with the help of a bank, as we can see Banks have a bigger role to play when buying and selling Bitcoin when lack of knowledge takes over, it's easier to say that we don't need the banks.

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Quote from: CryptSafe on June 26, 2023, 02:44:15 PM

Quote from: ImThour on June 25, 2023, 06:29:56 AM

The chances of these 1.7 billion creating a Bitcoin wallet and buying Bitcoin is 0.01% as they don't have enough resources to atleast open a Bank account in their respective country. The requirements to open a Bitcoin account is a mobile with Internet service and then you also need adequate knowledge and experience to operate with Cryptocurrency which is a far high ceiling as compared to a normal Bank account. Impossible to get this audience.

Actually, the people in the rural areas are basically not too inclined with technology. Some do not even have that taste for modern technology as they are too akaic in their thoughts and dealings When it comes to technological innovation not to talk of when it involves bitcoin. I believe this is where the work needs be done. Sensitization and awareness is what matters in every nook and crannies in the society.
Like you have said, knowledge and experience matters when it comes to dealing or having bitcoin in mind and it is very important that anyone going into it must have the knowledge of what they are about signing up for.

Lastly, as a result of the low standard of leaving, it would be very difficult for most rural dwellers to afford an android phone not to talk of internet service supplies so as to enable them follow up. Let me use my country as an example. The rural areas are characterized with poor electric supply, no internet supply, poor communication network you can mention lots of anything that has to do with technology in this modern day world which are lacked in the rural areas. That is the situation or condition of the rural areas in my country so you could imagine the lapses and the task at hand.

Pondering over tech resistance in the sticks is thought-provoking, yet sparks a rebuttal. Is rural folks' tech-unfriendliness an "archaic" mindset's offspring, or a consequence of scarce infrastructure and wealth gap?

Schooling country folk about Bitcoin or any tech wizardry isn't just about consciousness - its a Gordian knot tied with socio-economic threads. Sure, mastering Bitcoin is key, but can they afford and access such tech marvels?

Your mentioned tech rift - no power, web, or comms - isnt your nation' copyright, it's worldwide. How will Bitcoin tackle these barriers? Are we putting the tech horse before the infra-cart by parachuting AI into tech deserts?

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Quote from: ImThour on June 25, 2023, 06:29:56 AM

The chances of these 1.7 billion creating a Bitcoin wallet and buying Bitcoin is 0.01% as they don't have enough resources to atleast open a Bank account in their respective country. The requirements to open a Bitcoin account is a mobile with Internet service and then you also need adequate knowledge and experience to operate with Cryptocurrency which is a far high ceiling as compared to a normal Bank account. Impossible to get this audience.

Actually, the people in the rural areas are basically not too inclined with technology. Some do not even have that taste for modern technology as they are too akaic in their thoughts and dealings When it comes to technological innovation not to talk of when it involves bitcoin. I believe this is where the work needs be done. Sensitization and awareness is what matters in every nook and crannies in the society.
Like you have said, knowledge and experience matters when it comes to dealing or having bitcoin in mind and it is very important that anyone going into it must have the knowledge of what they are about signing up for.

Lastly, as a result of the low standard of leaving, it would be very difficult for most rural dwellers to afford an android phone not to talk of internet service supplies so as to enable them follow up. Let me use my country as an example. The rural areas are characterized with poor electric supply, no internet supply, poor communication network you can mention lots of anything that has to do with technology in this modern day world which are lacked in the rural areas. That is the situation or condition of the rural areas in my country so you could imagine the lapses and the task at hand.

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Quote from: bayu7adi on June 26, 2023, 11:40:34 AM

As an Indonesian, I'd like to share a little bit of my experience here after living for 26 years.

Some people here don't actually have a bank account, even though the nearest bank branch is just 1 kilometer away from their homes. Those without a bank account are generally individuals with lower economic power, where their salaries are sufficient to meet their needs and have a little fun with their earnings.

They don't really need a bank account because cash alone is enough. In fact, if someone wants to buy BTC (Bitcoin), the most effective way is to have a bank account. This means that one cannot own BTC without a bank account.

Meanwhile, people with relatively low incomes choose not to open a bank account because transactions can be done in cash, simply for purchasing necessities or even just for having some fun with the remaining portion of their earnings.

Is this a golden opportunity for Bitcoin?

Not in Indonesia. Their incomes are not sufficient for it, and they are still not willing to take risks with their primary funds. Even though Bitcoin is more appealing for investment, they would automatically open a bank account to facilitate easier transactions.

Being a Pakistani I would say situation is very much same in my country too. People who don't have enough monthly salary don't like to bank rather they prefer cash. Even there are people who have monthly salary less then 100$, apart from such people, there are businessmen who don't go for banking to avoid tax.
The issue with bitcoin is that you need to be technically sound in order to getting started with it. Areas which have low literacy rate and income won't be ideal places for Bitcoin adoption.

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