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Topic: 2 economists just eviscerated bitcoin, saying it should be trading at $20 - page 2. (Read 729 times)

hero member
Activity: 1218
Merit: 557
It is currently costing approx. $2400-$3000 to generate 1BTC.

Do you really think any miners will sell their coin for $20 each?

Also, there are 16,841,875BTC. Let's just say there are "1million active accounts".

that is 16.841875BTC per account or $336.83... Pay 1 week rent and you have 0BTC left!



Saying is easy than done. Just imagine do you think that bitcoin provides the endless opportunities to the people with its benefit and such benefit in the world will be available at 20$? In that case the homes, mansions, travelling etc all should be in 2 figure as well in the whole world which is not the case. So do not think much about statement and to those people the btc will give them the answer when the price will start rising again.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 6403
Blackjack.fun
It is currently costing approx. $2400-$3000 to generate 1BTC.
Do you really think any miners will sell their coin for $20 each?

There is no fixed cost for generating a coin.
If the price will drop below 1000$ people will just start turning off their miners, difficulty will go down, and the ones that still have dirty cheap power will be the only ones mining.

Look what happened with oil. It's quite the same from a miner's perspective.

Also, there are 16,841,875BTC. Let's just say there are "1million active accounts".
that is 16.841875BTC per account or $336.83... Pay 1 week rent and you have 0BTC left!

Yeah, and years ago you've had 10k BTC, you were hungry, pizza, and puff....0 BTC.
Your arguments are "One is worth now 10k how can it be worth 10?"

Well, it can happen, there is the possibility, and not the cost of mining or the price of rent will stop it but exactly what those two "economist" completely missed. The real usage and the trust users have in BTC
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1460
What about gold minus speculation? That's probably around $20-$50 of actual usage too.

There can be two types: one type is "same fool".  You know perfectly well that the asset is worthless in itself, but you firmly believe that others believe, and will continue to believe, in the SAME value (more or less) than you are going to spend it on.  Gold is of this type.  Famous old paintings are of this type.   It is a "store of value".  This is a belief that can last for a very, very long time.

The other type is "greater fool".  A pyramid game. You know that the asset is worthless, but you expect to be amongst the early birds in a mode phenomenon, where you'll find a greater fool to sell your asset for MUCH MORE than you paid for it.  In order to stimulate this even more, there needs to be a megalomaniac story that it is ACTUALLY a very useful asset of some future important capital with strong fundamentals, but that only visionaries can see it.  Say, the "monetary system of the future".  This kind of stuff always ends in a bang.

Now, go and think: most people buying bitcoin, do they do this because there are obvious fundamentals (which are not a megalomaniac story that won't work if you think about it 5 minutes) ; do you think that most people do it to put their savings safe, without an expectation of a lot of return, just a safety against loss ; or do you think that most people bought it to sell it to much higher bidders ?  What is YOUR motivation ?

Well, then you know in what category we're playing...


I reckon you are making up the term same fool, I had to do a google search but I found nothing about it hehehe.

In any case, I disagree with your assessment of gold as compared to bitcoin. Look at this chart, https://www.bullionvault.com/gold-price-chart.do then zoom it out to 20 years. It also shows that there are also greater fools in the gold market but with lower volatility.

That is because gold's lower volatility is caused by higher volume and higher liquidity. Gold's daily volume is an estimated  $125.3 billion per day. It is clear that if bitcoin reaches that level of liquidity, its volatility would also go down, for reasons you already know.

sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 347
Nobody trusts and listen to economists here.

Economists are like tamed dogs, whereas we hodlers are the wolves. We dont speak the same language.
hero member
Activity: 735
Merit: 1765
It is currently costing approx. $2400-$3000 to generate 1BTC.

Do you really think any miners will sell their coin for $20 each?

Also, there are 16,841,875BTC. Let's just say there are "1million active accounts".

that is 16.841875BTC per account or $336.83... Pay 1 week rent and you have 0BTC left!

full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 103
Is it time to realize that bitcoin's high price principally came from speculative sources and not real world utilization?
If an asset is growing so fast like Bitcoin did then it is 100% clear that the nature of this growth if truly speculative. But if the guy is just trying to remove all current "speculative" transactions and claimint that it is a "real price" then he is just retarded, sorry. There is nothing bad in healthy speculationm and they will always exist. On the other hand even if you remove all speculative transactions BTC will become more suitable for buying stuff and fees will decrease. This "economist" is trying to get a full picture just by changing 1 detail.
copper member
Activity: 2940
Merit: 4101
Top Crypto Casino
Most economists don't have a deep knowledge about bitcoin, they speculate only using the "traditional methods", analytics, stats.... And most just repeat what they got in their daily news.
They don't consider the bitcoin's evolution, before, now, later. If you think about all the predictions we see, maybe 75% are wrong. Nostradamus would do a better job.
As for the $20 number it doesn't make sense to me, as i said a lot of things aren't considered.

Buy high sell low, if you listen to them, you can become homeless Roll Eyes

Lesson 1:: Advice from an "experienced" economist


jr. member
Activity: 32
Merit: 5
Why did this make the news?

There are economists who predict 1,000,000usd per coin.
There are economists who predict 0 usd per coin.

Who cares? I assume no one makes their decisions based on what two economists say.....or three economists.
hero member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 753
Lol. $20 per bitcoin would be around 0.1% of the all time high for bitcoin. That's way too low of a price for bitcoin to ever sit at.

If the way that their analysis works actually works irl, then silver should probably be rendered worthless, because virtually nobody uses silver as a payment method anymore. They could times silver's supply by 4, and get the amount of transactions silver is facilitating, which is virtually 0 right now, and you'll get probably at max, $1-2 per ounce of silver.

Yes, right now we are seeing bitcoin rise exponentially. Speculation is involved. The growth isn't kicked off by entirely the actual usage in facilitating transactions, but instead people looking at bitcoin's potential in the future and buying & holding their coins.

Bitcoin can be worth its current value and not facilitate 1000x the current amount of transactions. Because people hold it as a store of value.
sr. member
Activity: 882
Merit: 282
I disagree with the comments made by this men and I think one need to actually review the value of blockchain to our contemporary economic as you can actually see that bitcoin has do very well in the area of decentralization and fast transactions which many people value. Bitcoin has also served as  investment angle that has helped a lot of investors and the investors should determined how bitcoin should be valued and not some analog economist.
sr. member
Activity: 882
Merit: 251
Funny you are!  I have just pictured these guys smoking weeds and talking about $20 BTC. Suppose in reality Bitcoin will gain again.
full member
Activity: 312
Merit: 111
Just curious about the weed that this two "economist" have been using.
full member
Activity: 560
Merit: 112
Do the bitcoin really need anything more than the believers? No, I don’t think speculative groups are the one maintaining its higher price for past few years. It is us who understand and doesn’t leave the bitcoin behind even with this kind or relentless attack from so called “expert”. Let them talk and give negative comments we don’t have to listen to them or even ignoring those kind of selfish individuals who doesn’t deserve any attention. Maybe they’re dignity been sold and it’s worth 20$, for sure.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
What about gold minus speculation? That's probably around $20-$50 of actual usage too.

You're right, concerning gold.  Gold is THE speculative asset over history.  However, exactly its very, very long history has more or less "frozen in" the speculative value of gold.

There are two sources of value: utility and belief.  One usually takes it that "rational" value is only related to utility.  That's called the "fundamental".  Utility has to do with human joy, or absence of human suffering, in the largest sense possible.  If some good or service G provides joy, or helps avoiding suffering of another human being (or something that that human being likes, like his cat), it has economic utility: that human, in need of G, is, in his turn, ready to provide utility (joy) to another human being, if that's the only way to obtain good or service G.  The negociation/power game/.... of all humans concerning the goods and services that bring them utility vs. what they need to sacrifice for it, sets the market price, normally, of things.   The market price is nothing else but the relative ratio's of G one can obtain for other good or service H.

Humans can make plans, and some plan to make a lot of G, in order to sell it to those desiring G, and to obtain a lot of H in place.  The execution of those plans also create needs in an indirect way: production capital.  Production capital derives its value from the amount of G you can make with it, even though nobody is directly in need of that production capital.  As such, the utility of G is what is the "fundamental" of the derived utility of that production capital.  You can now promise production capital, promise plans and all that, and package this in investment assets.  Investment assets are, in principle, things that have to do with ownership and/or exploitation of future or present plans and production capital.  Of course, if it concerns plans for future production of future goods and services, it is hard to predict the future.  So people can have different value estimations of the real fundamental utility of plans and production capital.  This is the stock market.  Even though uncertainties concerning the future are what drives trading in the stock market, normally, the game is to try to be as close as possible to the "true fundamental future value" of stock.  This is "rational speculation".

Of course, at a certain point, things can become very opaque, and there can be assets of which the future estimation of actual fundamentals is extremely uncertain.  Then it is a gamble.  You can't really know.  But even in that case, that gamble is still based upon a rational expectation of, ultimately, some fundamental utility (human joy).

But there's an entirely different way in which assets can acquire value: recursive belief !  These assets can be totally devoid of any relationship to anything of economic utility, it can be that people there is a lock-in of a common belief that others will believe that this asset has value ; if it does, then it HAS value.  The ONLY reason to acquire this asset, is to be able to sell it to someone else.  At no point, we think that it is remotely related to anything of utility. We only think that the belief in its value will not wane.  

There can be two types: one type is "same fool".  You know perfectly well that the asset is worthless in itself, but you firmly believe that others believe, and will continue to believe, in the SAME value (more or less) than you are going to spend it on.  Gold is of this type.  Famous old paintings are of this type.   It is a "store of value".  This is a belief that can last for a very, very long time.

The other type is "greater fool".  A pyramid game.  You know that the asset is worthless, but you expect to be amongst the early birds in a mode phenomenon, where you'll find a greater fool to sell your asset for MUCH MORE than you paid for it.  In order to stimulate this even more, there needs to be a megalomaniac story that it is ACTUALLY a very useful asset of some future important capital with strong fundamentals, but that only visionaries can see it.  Say, the "monetary system of the future".  This kind of stuff always ends in a bang.

Now, go and think: most people buying bitcoin, do they do this because there are obvious fundamentals (which are not a megalomaniac story that won't work if you think about it 5 minutes) ; do you think that most people do it to put their savings safe, without an expectation of a lot of return, just a safety against loss ; or do you think that most people bought it to sell it to much higher bidders ?  What is YOUR motivation ?

Well, then you know in what category we're playing...
legendary
Activity: 3976
Merit: 1421
Life, Love and Laughter...
$20 does not seem unreasonable IMO. I could see it trading around there or even significantly lower. Bitcoin has too many large fundamental problems and external threats for it to really warrant a price over like $5 or so.

Are you from the year 2011?  Welcome to the present (or the future?)!  Grin

Where's your Delorean doc?

There it is!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psxktpxkc6o
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1088
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
Nouriel Roubini has popped up to say that bitcoin will plummet “all the way down to zero”.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/feb/02/bitcoin-biggest-bubble-in-history-says-economist-who-predicted-2008-crash

Of course the rules of bull markets still apply - it only really turns when the last bear has capitulated and given up hope of the market going down - and as we can see that hasn't happened yet, there are plenty of bears predicting crashes.
full member
Activity: 266
Merit: 103
$20 does not seem unreasonable IMO. I could see it trading around there or even significantly lower. Bitcoin has too many large fundamental problems and external threats for it to really warrant a price over like $5 or so.
full member
Activity: 518
Merit: 145
Very way absurd! Sure, you are going to be getting a lot of negative comments just because there is no sense in what those paid economist have said. Sure, Bitcoin may be a speculative asset and it was way overbought at some point, but the value is what it is and what you and I have decided to sell what we are holding as long as someone is ready to accept the price for it. We should not also forget the limited supply as well. However, if they both feel it should be trading at $20, no one is definitely stopping anyone from hitting the exchange to go sell at $20, at least they won't even have to bid at all.
hero member
Activity: 1414
Merit: 516
I'm tired of this economists and of all governments who don't want people to evolve. This who are against bitcoin want that people from their country to work a lot so they can get huge profit and give back only a low % share.

Don't sell your bitcoin for so low price.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
Is it time to realize that bitcoin's high price principally came from speculative sources and not real world utilization?

In fact, in 2015 I came to that kind of number too.  You find it by having a rough estimation of the actual volume of bitcoin used to buy "goods and services" and assume a velocity similar to fiat, like the dollar.   Using Fisher's formula, you can then estimate the "currency value" of the monetary asset at hand. I looked at volumes like bitpay, added a good factor to it (dark markets etc...) and I also arrived in the few $ to a few tens of $.
I have the impression that real currency usage of bitcoin hasn't increased (maybe rather decreased since).

This is why, in 2015, I waited in vain for a bottom of a few $10.  But it never came, because bitcoin is not a currency.  That's a parasitic side effect of it.  Bitcoin is pure speculation.
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