I really wonder what planet people are living on when they suggest Bitcoin has no "instrinsic value". Please consider these 3 things:
[1] - the term "intrinsic value" implies that the thing is of value to itself. It's meaningless. Things either have a utility value or an exchange value, end of story.
Gold has a "generic exchange value" because it was the bitcoin of the day before we had a worldwide electronic trading platform. i.e. was a rare manifestation of something that had a high resistance to counterfeiting, fairly limited supply, was fungible and "worked" as a generic token of wealth. Unfortunately gold is physical, it doesn't travel through wires and so something new has to be found that performs the same function on an electronic network. Numbers alone are not enough because they require a massive amount of counterparty involvement to endorse their value.
[2] - as a technology, Bitcoin has an economic value because is makes a multi-billion dollar counterparty industry known as the banking system theoretically redundant. It has a utility value because it can perform a peer-to-peer monetary function where nothing else can. Until Bitcoin was invented, no such technology had been discovered or invented. Please think about that for a minute - not one single technology existed that was capable of performing this monetary function universally without a counterparty. So it not only has utility value due to the diverse and unprecedented functionality of the Bitcoin network, but it also has exchange value because it works as a generic token.
[3] - Anything that works as a generic token of exchange automatically accrues to multiples of it's utility value because there are just so few things that have satisfactory properties to perform this function. Try going to a funfare and purchasing one of those plastic tokens that let you go on rides. Now compare the price of the plastic token at the funfare and the price an equivalent piece of plastic in the hardware shop. There will be about a 10000% (ten thousand percent) difference and that difference is the value that the token has while performing a monetary function. It has nothing to do with "intrinsic value", it's to do with whether that thing is performing a monetary, store-of-wealth function or not. The same applies to gold - it has a high value because it's in the role of the plastic token at the funfair. No other reason - not because it's "nice and shiny", not because it's used in Jewellery, teeth, electronics or any other nonsense. Because it's performing a monetary function as a token of exchange and works as such.
People who don't get this are like aliens from space who land on the planet and see gold as "just another bit of useless metal lying in the ground". I don't blame aliens from space for saying that because they are right - until someone decides to start using it as money. That's when everything changes. Same applies to Bitcoin.
So conclusion: things don't get used as money because they have "intrinsic value", it's the other way around. "Intrinsic value" accrues to something through it's ability to be used as a token of exchange.
Topic: 2 problems with Bitcoin - page 3. (Read 4002 times)
Anything that i give value to, has value.
sure, valued your post.
Since I already answered your questions and you didn't reply you either didn't understand my post or chose not to respond. I'll simply ask a series of questions...
1. With the exception of your body and mind; what do you believe has actual intrinsic value?
2. Do you believe the current fiat is perfect?
3. Do you align more with the political beliefs of capitalism or communism? Which has more benefits in your opinion?
1. With the exception of your body and mind; what do you believe has actual intrinsic value?
2. Do you believe the current fiat is perfect?
3. Do you align more with the political beliefs of capitalism or communism? Which has more benefits in your opinion?
1. not btc
2. current fiat, no. but why replace it with yours. how about real money, 1792 coinage act.
3. free markets, adam smith ,consitution, yadda yadda
Thank you for answering.
1. I've already expressed that intrinsic value by definition is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as guaranteed value with the exception of your body and mind and only because those are essential to your actual existence and so holds guaranteed personal value to you (Would you accept 1 trillion dollars or a mountain of gold in exchange for your life?). BTC is no exception as intrinsic value is non-existent. Gold has no intrinsic value; value by definition can never be intrinsic. No exceptions...
2. Agree, current fiat is not perfect. Bitcoin is innovation and change in the right direction. 1792 coinage act is not perfect either because of fractional reserve banking.
3. Bitcoin is 100% aligned with your ideological beliefs. Bitcoin is owned by the carrier and always executes a peer to peer transaction while government fiat can never be owned by the user Government fiat is a debt to repay while Bitcoin is an asset which gains equity over time.
1 you dont like the idea so it must be wrong, got ya. i'll gladly carry off all your gold even if it goes to zero. You can keep your digital bits if btc goes to zero though. I hope you see a least a glimmer of intrinsic value in there.
2 not my point - a dollar is so many grains of silver - no such thing as fraction reserving a real money system.
3 I'll decide my beliefs, you want to me switch fiat teams, i want real money.
thank you for responding, im having fun talking about these ideas.
Anything that i give value to, has value.
I've though about the term "intrinsic value" for several years now. Anyone who is honest with themselves should realize (I hope it doesn't take several years, like it did for me) that "intrinsic value" is bullshit.
Value requires a relationship. You need A to first observe B for value to even exist! B can never have value without something like A to actually assign it value.
Everyone using "intrinsic value" should consider using a more appropriate term, like industrial value, alternative value, multifaceted value, or perhaps onion value (layers).
When it comes to money, these other values are actually a hindrance because they can influence the object's value outside of it's use as money. These forms of money (commodity money) were useful at first, when trade was not global and technology didn't allow man to step outside the role of hunter/gatherer. In today's world, we humans specialize, and we need specialized tools to achieve our goals. Bitcoin was designed from the ground up to be pure money, and that is a feature, not a bug. Bitcoin is money specialized. Arguably, so is today's fiat (specialized money), but fiat has a massive drawback in the fact that it is controlled by a few, to the advantage of those few.
Value requires a relationship. You need A to first observe B for value to even exist! B can never have value without something like A to actually assign it value.
Everyone using "intrinsic value" should consider using a more appropriate term, like industrial value, alternative value, multifaceted value, or perhaps onion value (layers).
When it comes to money, these other values are actually a hindrance because they can influence the object's value outside of it's use as money. These forms of money (commodity money) were useful at first, when trade was not global and technology didn't allow man to step outside the role of hunter/gatherer. In today's world, we humans specialize, and we need specialized tools to achieve our goals. Bitcoin was designed from the ground up to be pure money, and that is a feature, not a bug. Bitcoin is money specialized. Arguably, so is today's fiat (specialized money), but fiat has a massive drawback in the fact that it is controlled by a few, to the advantage of those few.
it seems you dont like the idea of intrinsic value and do away with it because you know that bitcoin doesnt have it.
no you did fine, was reading between the lines and trying to make my point.
1. Carrington type event
2. no intrinsic value
comments?
2. no intrinsic value
comments?
Carrington type event hmm. It's like the possible acute effects on Bitcoin vs the very real chronic effects of the current financial system.
Plus such an event would likely cause a whole host of other issues unrelated to Bitcoin.
If you can only come up with 2 problems with Bitcoin, than that's saying something! I can think of LOTS of problems with every other type of currency.
I've though about the term "intrinsic value" for several years now. Anyone who is honest with themselves should realize (I hope it doesn't take several years, like it did for me) that "intrinsic value" is bullshit.
Value requires a relationship. You need A to first observe B for value to even exist! B can never have value without something like A to actually assign it value.
Everyone using "intrinsic value" should consider using a more appropriate term, like industrial value, alternative value, multifaceted value, or perhaps onion value (layers).
When it comes to money, these other values are actually a hindrance because they can influence the object's value outside of it's use as money. These forms of money (commodity money) were useful at first, when trade was not global and technology didn't allow man to step outside the role of hunter/gatherer. In today's world, we humans specialize, and we need specialized tools to achieve our goals. Bitcoin was designed from the ground up to be pure money, and that is a feature, not a bug. Bitcoin is money specialized. Arguably, so is today's fiat (specialized money), but fiat has a massive drawback in the fact that it is controlled by a few, to the advantage of those few.
Value requires a relationship. You need A to first observe B for value to even exist! B can never have value without something like A to actually assign it value.
Everyone using "intrinsic value" should consider using a more appropriate term, like industrial value, alternative value, multifaceted value, or perhaps onion value (layers).
When it comes to money, these other values are actually a hindrance because they can influence the object's value outside of it's use as money. These forms of money (commodity money) were useful at first, when trade was not global and technology didn't allow man to step outside the role of hunter/gatherer. In today's world, we humans specialize, and we need specialized tools to achieve our goals. Bitcoin was designed from the ground up to be pure money, and that is a feature, not a bug. Bitcoin is money specialized. Arguably, so is today's fiat (specialized money), but fiat has a massive drawback in the fact that it is controlled by a few, to the advantage of those few.
it seems you dont like the idea of intrinsic value and do away with it because you know that bitcoin doesnt have it.
If that is what you take from my post, I must have severe difficulties conveying meaning with the written word.
I've though about the term "intrinsic value" for several years now. Anyone who is honest with themselves should realize (I hope it doesn't take several years, like it did for me) that "intrinsic value" is bullshit.
Value requires a relationship. You need A to first observe B for value to even exist! B can never have value without something like A to actually assign it value.
Everyone using "intrinsic value" should consider using a more appropriate term, like industrial value, alternative value, multifaceted value, or perhaps onion value (layers).
When it comes to money, these other values are actually a hindrance because they can influence the object's value outside of it's use as money. These forms of money (commodity money) were useful at first, when trade was not global and technology didn't allow man to step outside the role of hunter/gatherer. In today's world, we humans specialize, and we need specialized tools to achieve our goals. Bitcoin was designed from the ground up to be pure money, and that is a feature, not a bug. Bitcoin is money specialized. Arguably, so is today's fiat (specialized money), but fiat has a massive drawback in the fact that it is controlled by a few, to the advantage of those few.
Value requires a relationship. You need A to first observe B for value to even exist! B can never have value without something like A to actually assign it value.
Everyone using "intrinsic value" should consider using a more appropriate term, like industrial value, alternative value, multifaceted value, or perhaps onion value (layers).
When it comes to money, these other values are actually a hindrance because they can influence the object's value outside of it's use as money. These forms of money (commodity money) were useful at first, when trade was not global and technology didn't allow man to step outside the role of hunter/gatherer. In today's world, we humans specialize, and we need specialized tools to achieve our goals. Bitcoin was designed from the ground up to be pure money, and that is a feature, not a bug. Bitcoin is money specialized. Arguably, so is today's fiat (specialized money), but fiat has a massive drawback in the fact that it is controlled by a few, to the advantage of those few.
it seems you dont like the idea of intrinsic value and do away with it because you know that bitcoin doesnt have it.
i would hoard gold, silver, diamonds, land, instictively even if society placed no value upon these things. One only hoards bitcoins when society percieves value upon it.
its nature is fiat, and decidely unintrinsic, mho.
I've though about the term "intrinsic value" for several years now. Anyone who is honest with themselves should realize (I hope it doesn't take several years, like it did for me) that "intrinsic value" is bullshit.
Value requires a relationship. You need A to first observe B for value to even exist! B can never have value without something like A to actually assign it value.
Everyone using "intrinsic value" should consider using a more appropriate term, like industrial value, alternative value, multifaceted value, or perhaps onion value (layers).
When it comes to money, these other values are actually a hindrance because they can influence the object's value outside of it's use as money. These forms of money (commodity money) were useful at first, when trade was not global and technology didn't allow man to step outside the role of hunter/gatherer. In today's world, we humans specialize, and we need specialized tools to achieve our goals. Bitcoin was designed from the ground up to be pure money, and that is a feature, not a bug. Bitcoin is money specialized. Arguably, so is today's fiat (specialized money), but fiat has a massive drawback in the fact that it is controlled by a few, to the advantage of those few.
Value requires a relationship. You need A to first observe B for value to even exist! B can never have value without something like A to actually assign it value.
Everyone using "intrinsic value" should consider using a more appropriate term, like industrial value, alternative value, multifaceted value, or perhaps onion value (layers).
When it comes to money, these other values are actually a hindrance because they can influence the object's value outside of it's use as money. These forms of money (commodity money) were useful at first, when trade was not global and technology didn't allow man to step outside the role of hunter/gatherer. In today's world, we humans specialize, and we need specialized tools to achieve our goals. Bitcoin was designed from the ground up to be pure money, and that is a feature, not a bug. Bitcoin is money specialized. Arguably, so is today's fiat (specialized money), but fiat has a massive drawback in the fact that it is controlled by a few, to the advantage of those few.
The "No intrinsic" value argument has been discussed to death.
I believe the "Carrington event" relates to a solar storm that would knock out most electronic means of communication. How is the current banking system protected from the same event? If anything Bitcoin is more resilient as the blockchain (public ledger) is replicated across 1000s of PCs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859
Thinking about this...Maybe we should go back to using an abacus??
I believe the "Carrington event" relates to a solar storm that would knock out most electronic means of communication. How is the current banking system protected from the same event? If anything Bitcoin is more resilient as the blockchain (public ledger) is replicated across 1000s of PCs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859
Thinking about this...Maybe we should go back to using an abacus??
How often does this actually happen. 1859 was quite a while ago.
It is over valued by several orders of magnitude if you just look at its usefulness as an industrial metal.
Or diamonds. They are even incredibly cheap to make in a lab. It has value because someone somewhere a long time ago decided that a clear stone is "beautiful"?
Not even that long ago. It was in the last 100 years that the DeBeers diamond cartel was formed and aggressively marketed the diamond as a precious stone.
When compared to other precious stones (eg rubies, emeralds, sapphires), diamonds are even that rare and should be classified as "semi-precious" (like topaz, etc). The only reason why they command a high price is because DeBeers artificially limits the diamond supply.
It is over valued by several orders of magnitude if you just look at its usefulness as an industrial metal.
Or diamonds. They are even incredibly cheap to make in a lab. It has value because someone somewhere a long time ago decided that a clear stone is "beautiful"?
they have intrinsic value, if you saw them on the ground you would pick them up and give them to your lady or probably trade them for peanut butter.
Why don't you leave this forum and have a talk with some economists? They will give you standing ovations and throw greenbacks on you
Since I already answered your questions and you didn't reply you either didn't understand my post or chose not to respond. I'll simply ask a series of questions...
1. With the exception of your body and mind; what do you believe has actual intrinsic value?
2. Do you believe the current fiat is perfect?
3. Do you align more with the political beliefs of capitalism or communism? Which has more benefits in your opinion?
1. With the exception of your body and mind; what do you believe has actual intrinsic value?
2. Do you believe the current fiat is perfect?
3. Do you align more with the political beliefs of capitalism or communism? Which has more benefits in your opinion?
1. not btc
2. current fiat, no. but why replace it with yours. how about real money, 1792 coinage act.
3. free markets, adam smith ,consitution, yadda yadda
Thank you for answering.
1. I've already expressed that intrinsic value by definition is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as guaranteed value with the exception of your body and mind and only because those are essential to your actual existence and so holds guaranteed personal value to you (Would you accept 1 trillion dollars or a mountain of gold in exchange for your life?). BTC is no exception as intrinsic value is non-existent. Gold has no intrinsic value; value by definition can never be intrinsic. No exceptions...
2. Agree, current fiat is not perfect. Bitcoin is innovation and change in the right direction. 1792 coinage act is not perfect either because of fractional reserve banking.
3. Bitcoin is 100% aligned with your ideological beliefs. Bitcoin is owned by the carrier and always executes a peer to peer transaction while government fiat can never be owned by the user Government fiat is a debt to repay while Bitcoin is an asset which gains equity over time.
It is over valued by several orders of magnitude if you just look at its usefulness as an industrial metal.
Or diamonds. They are even incredibly cheap to make in a lab. It has value because someone somewhere a long time ago decided that a clear stone is "beautiful"?
they have intrinsic value, if you saw them on the ground you would pick them up and give them to your lady or probably trade them for peanut butter.
you guys hate the idea of intrinstic value because btc has none and its a requirement of real money.
you guys have created your own fiat, way to go, we already had fiat.
you guys have created your own fiat, way to go, we already had fiat.
What intrinsic value does paper money have? It's a bit of paper.
i agree, why i started this topic, finally someone gets it.
What intrinsic value does gold have?
Gold has intrinsic value because it's a metal which can be used for other things.
so if a carrington event happens bitcoin = 0
people wake up to the tulip mania and realize bitcoin has no intrinstic value = 0
people wake up to the tulip mania and realize bitcoin has no intrinstic value = 0
Why are you here then?
i enjoy mining, building computers, and such.
It is over valued by several orders of magnitude if you just look at its usefulness as an industrial metal.
Or diamonds. They are even incredibly cheap to make in a lab. It has value because someone somewhere a long time ago decided that a clear stone is "beautiful"?
you guys hate the idea of intrinstic value because btc has none and its a requirement of real money.
you guys have created your own fiat, way to go, we already had fiat.
you guys have created your own fiat, way to go, we already had fiat.
What intrinsic value does paper money have? It's a bit of paper.
i agree, why i started this topic, finally someone gets it.
What intrinsic value does gold have?
It is over valued by several orders of magnitude if you just look at its usefulness as an industrial metal.
never had any gold obviously.
you guys hate the idea of intrinstic value because btc has none and its a requirement of real money.
you guys have created your own fiat, way to go, we already had fiat.
you guys have created your own fiat, way to go, we already had fiat.
What intrinsic value does paper money have? It's a bit of paper.
i agree, why i started this topic, finally someone gets it.
What intrinsic value does gold have?
It is over valued by several orders of magnitude if you just look at its usefulness as an industrial metal.
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