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Topic: 20 years later bitcoin and goverments (Read 2346 times)

full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
December 15, 2014, 10:18:28 AM
#31
Let's say a dictator declares, "anyone who accepts any currency other than the state currency is subject to arrest and 10 years in prison".

It doesn't matter what awesome crypto tech we come up with. It will never see the light of day. Law enforcement shows up at the shop, if the merchant lets anyone walk out of there without having paid in the state currency, he goes to prison.  All merchants who are not otherwise breaking the law, being rational, will not risk 10 years in prison just to bypass chargebacks and 2% fees.
Can I ask in which country you live, and which ones you've visited?

The reason I ask is because in my (admittedly limited) experience outside the G7, what I've observed is that as regimes become more dictatorial the willingness of the population to find creative solutions for bypassing the dictates increases along with the totalitarianism.

It's not a concept that people who have lived in relatively free countries would be familiar with, and it's something that it's easier to understand after having witnessed it.
I don't disagree with you here.

There probably aren't many places where the necessary conditions exist.  There has to be both a relatively good state-run system, and a government that can make quick and arbitrary threats of violence.

First world countries can't just arbitrarily declare 10 year prison sentences for anything (eg eating a banana).  And dictatorships usually have terrible state-run systems where the motive for people to risk prison is fairly high.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
December 15, 2014, 09:21:43 AM
#30
Let's say a dictator declares, "anyone who accepts any currency other than the state currency is subject to arrest and 10 years in prison".

It doesn't matter what awesome crypto tech we come up with. It will never see the light of day. Law enforcement shows up at the shop, if the merchant lets anyone walk out of there without having paid in the state currency, he goes to prison.  All merchants who are not otherwise breaking the law, being rational, will not risk 10 years in prison just to bypass chargebacks and 2% fees.
Can I ask in which country you live, and which ones you've visited?

The reason I ask is because in my (admittedly limited) experience outside the G7, what I've observed is that as regimes become more dictatorial the willingness of the population to find creative solutions for bypassing the dictates increases along with the totalitarianism.

It's not a concept that people who have lived in relatively free countries would be familiar with, and it's something that it's easier to understand after having witnessed it.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
December 15, 2014, 08:23:52 AM
#29
They can't "shut it down". They would have to:

1) Raid every single person using Bitcoin (imposible)
2) Shut down the entire internet (stupid idea)

So yeah, they can't stop it same as they can't stop people sharing p2p and they've been trying for decades now.

I dunno, look at what happened in that film equilibrium, if people keep giving gov power we might all have to learn super kung fu to keep bitcoin alive Grin
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 503
December 15, 2014, 06:47:30 AM
#28
Deep down the conspiracy theorist in me says they want this to happen.  The ability to track all value movements across the globe.
It's a very solid view. I think it could be like a an alpha version of a future digital currency (not bitcoin) like a test. It's a valid theory.
It's still better than fiat money tho lol.
full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
December 15, 2014, 06:21:23 AM
#27
I think that if government declares it illegal to accept bitcoin, that is the end of bitcoin in that country.  No one is going to risk prison merely to accept bitcoin. The consensus will be unsustainably small, there will be no one to trade with except a few other extreme risk takers.  It'll be like 2010 except there's far more risk and far less benefit (the price will not increase again like it did back then).  End result is bitcoin dies in that country.

It still flourishes elsewhere of course, and the iron-fist country forfeits economic growth.  The more countries that ban it, the more a lax country can benefit by allowing it. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking bitcoin can locally withstand the iron fist.
I understand that you're not willing to put in the work needed to make Bitcoin's resistance to local oppression more robust.

You're making an error when you assume that just because you're not willing to do it that nobody else is willing to do the work either.
I don't think there's anything that can be done. What did you have in mind?

Let's say a dictator declares, "anyone who accepts any currency other than the state currency is subject to arrest and 10 years in prison".

It doesn't matter what awesome crypto tech we come up with. It will never see the light of day. Law enforcement shows up at the shop, if the merchant lets anyone walk out of there without having paid in the state currency, he goes to prison.  All merchants who are not otherwise breaking the law, being rational, will not risk 10 years in prison just to bypass chargebacks and 2% fees.

Maybe you have some creative solution for this.

Granted I think this is all hypothetical, I don't expect any first-world economy to actually pass such a law. I'm just saying the technique would be effective against bitcoin.
sr. member
Activity: 249
Merit: 250
December 14, 2014, 09:44:54 AM
#26
Deep down the conspiracy theorist in me says they want this to happen.  The ability to track all value movements across the globe.
legendary
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1183
December 14, 2014, 09:41:14 AM
#25
They can't "shut it down". They would have to:

1) Raid every single person using Bitcoin (imposible)
2) Shut down the entire internet (stupid idea)

So yeah, they can't stop it same as they can't stop people sharing p2p and they've been trying for decades now.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
December 14, 2014, 09:37:34 AM
#24
I think that if government declares it illegal to accept bitcoin, that is the end of bitcoin in that country.  No one is going to risk prison merely to accept bitcoin. The consensus will be unsustainably small, there will be no one to trade with except a few other extreme risk takers.  It'll be like 2010 except there's far more risk and far less benefit (the price will not increase again like it did back then).  End result is bitcoin dies in that country.

It still flourishes elsewhere of course, and the iron-fist country forfeits economic growth.  The more countries that ban it, the more a lax country can benefit by allowing it. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking bitcoin can locally withstand the iron fist.
I understand that you're not willing to put in the work needed to make Bitcoin's resistance to local oppression more robust.

You're making an error when you assume that just because you're not willing to do it that nobody else is willing to do the work either.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1094
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
December 13, 2014, 05:37:11 PM
#23
Let's say bitcoin is going well and 20 years later (pseudo, it can be even 10 years) it's about to slap in the face of dollar and euro. Indirectly, the United States and European countries.

The goverments will just sit on their soft seats? No. What can they do to finish bitcoin?

Make their own, and then differentiate their product enough to attract people to use it over Bitcoin
That said they cannot finish Bitcoin off directly due to its nature.
(Oh less internet censorship/very very strict punishments for its use)
full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
December 13, 2014, 05:22:40 PM
#22
That means make it illegal to trade btc to real money and vice versa. So if i want to buy food for example and i only have bitcoin, then i will ended up having problem. This reduces the appeal and demand. Like i said no way they can shut it down but just makes your life difficult until you give up.
It's also illegal to drive faster than the posted speed limit.

Plenty of people find ways to do it anyway while managing their risk of adverse consequences.

It will be easier to bypass laws that restrict Bitcoin usage than to bypass traffic laws - after all, censorship resistance is just a software problem.

I think that if government declares it illegal to accept bitcoin, that is the end of bitcoin in that country.  No one is going to risk prison merely to accept bitcoin. The consensus will be unsustainably small, there will be no one to trade with except a few other extreme risk takers.  It'll be like 2010 except there's far more risk and far less benefit (the price will not increase again like it did back then).  End result is bitcoin dies in that country.

It still flourishes elsewhere of course, and the iron-fist country forfeits economic growth.  The more countries that ban it, the more a lax country can benefit by allowing it. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking bitcoin can locally withstand the iron fist.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 12, 2014, 01:58:08 PM
#21
Bitcoin could still be 51% attacked by a government
who builds a mega mining farm.  What are the possible remedies to that? 
legendary
Activity: 3374
Merit: 1824
December 12, 2014, 11:31:17 AM
#20
That means make it illegal to trade btc to real money and vice versa. So if i want to buy food for example and i only have bitcoin, then i will ended up having problem. This reduces the appeal and demand. Like i said no way they can shut it down but just makes your life difficult until you give up.
It's also illegal to drive faster than the posted speed limit.

Plenty of people find ways to do it anyway while managing their risk of adverse consequences.

It will be easier to bypass laws that restrict Bitcoin usage than to bypass traffic laws - after all, censorship resistance is just a software problem.


Exactly and this is the reason I love so much bitcoin concept.
There is no centralization here, some central, main bitcoin office or CEO, so nobody really can stop us!
OK, government can make difficult for us use bitcoin in real, offline world, but online world they can't control, fully.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
December 12, 2014, 09:40:07 AM
#19
That means make it illegal to trade btc to real money and vice versa. So if i want to buy food for example and i only have bitcoin, then i will ended up having problem. This reduces the appeal and demand. Like i said no way they can shut it down but just makes your life difficult until you give up.
It's also illegal to drive faster than the posted speed limit.

Plenty of people find ways to do it anyway while managing their risk of adverse consequences.

It will be easier to bypass laws that restrict Bitcoin usage than to bypass traffic laws - after all, censorship resistance is just a software problem.
Q7
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
December 12, 2014, 09:28:14 AM
#18
They certainly can't shut it down completely but they certainly can by force put a stop to all the exchangers. That means make it illegal to trade btc to real money and vice versa. So if i want to buy food for example and i only have bitcoin, then i will ended up having problem. This reduces the appeal and demand. Like i said no way they can shut it down but just makes your life difficult until you give up.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
AltoCenter.com
December 12, 2014, 08:57:40 AM
#17
Bitcoin will be the most important thing on the market... And government will still chase it...
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1064
December 12, 2014, 08:39:00 AM
#16
I guess the government will go after users of bitcoins and not the Bitcoin network as such.
It is far easier to do that - shut down bank access to any bitcoin sites, prevent bitcoin companies from developing, etc.
sr. member
Activity: 728
Merit: 256
December 11, 2014, 04:35:37 PM
#15
Let's say bitcoin is going well and 20 years later (pseudo, it can be even 10 years) it's about to slap in the face of dollar and euro. Indirectly, the United States and European countries.

The goverments will just sit on their soft seats? No. What can they do to finish bitcoin?

Just like Govt now control the banks through central bank, govt will control big bitcoin companies though some set up body and thereby controlling a big bitcoin stash.
legendary
Activity: 2744
Merit: 1288
December 11, 2014, 04:10:18 PM
#14
Let's say bitcoin is going well and 20 years later (pseudo, it can be even 10 years) it's about to slap in the face of dollar and euro. Indirectly, the United States and European countries.

The goverments will just sit on their soft seats? No. What can they do to finish bitcoin?

lol 20 years.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1000
December 11, 2014, 02:39:20 PM
#13
It depends how far a country is willing to go, you will be surprised what can be achieved if you have enough power.

thepiratebay isn't fully decentralized and it has sustained numerous attacks from the most powerful countries with the greatest of motivations.
2 days ago one of their datacenters were raided illegally by bribed and corrupt agents and a day later mirror sites and cached versions were online and business as ussual.
additionally, this attack has spurred this -
http://venturebeat.com/2014/12/10/bittorrent-announces-project-maelstrom-the-first-torrent-based-browser/

Decentralized torrent browser.  Any attacks on Bitcoin will simply make it stronger and more resilient.

The attacks on TPB are nothing..  The gov will not lose it's power from TPB..  They will do everything and anything to keep their power.

I have warned you many times..  keep some bitcoin completely hidden from everyone.  Govs have many time in the past stolen the wealth of the public.  America has too, you are no different.  Be prepared.. war is on the horizen.. it could be avoided but it is doubtful.

Those in control would seem to follow the samson option before giving up their power... 
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
December 11, 2014, 02:13:31 PM
#12
P2P file sharing exist since 15 years.
It's the highest trusted system to exchange files freely.

And when you add money in this ... you obtain a think better than the 100 years of human declined economy.

the TRUST of the real process without flaw or manipulation.

http://www.lafkon.net/tc/
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