2013-01-06 edandethan.com - Show 40 with Chris Ferreira and Charlie Shrem

Yankee (BitInstant)

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Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem

Quote from: molecular on January 08, 2013, 10:28:34 AM

Quote from: giszmo on January 08, 2013, 07:36:52 AM

Guys don't be so hard on Charlie. Charlie did a really really great job and should not stress about details. I'm sure he has best intentions to find a good balance between relaxed talking and accurate information.

+1

on the other hand I'm sure Charlie doesn't mind us helping him to get his facts straight as long as we're friendly and appreciate his efforts.

Agreed! I love it.

molecular

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Quote from: giszmo on January 08, 2013, 07:36:52 AM

Guys don't be so hard on Charlie. Charlie did a really really great job and should not stress about details. I'm sure he has best intentions to find a good balance between relaxed talking and accurate information.

+1

on the other hand I'm sure Charlie doesn't mind us helping him to get his facts straight as long as we're friendly and appreciate his efforts.

BCB

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BCJ

Look Guys.

I like Charlie. He started a terrific and one of the more successful bitcoin business that is obviously helpful to lots of users (if he could only work out all the little bugs!). We all make mistakes. I am certain I would do a lot worse in a similar interview. Charlie is also one of bitcoins most vocal advocates/evangelists and I certainly appreciate that. And as such he and any other bitcoin advocate does need to prepare talking points so he gets his facts straight. There is already enough skepticism and confusion in the general media (christ even in the bitcoin world) about what exactly bitcoin is and can be use for. And there has been enough negative press and unfortunate press interviews that I think it only appropriated to call Charlie to task when he is essentially representing us all.

Keep up the good work Charlie!

hathmill

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Quote from: Yankee (BitInstant) on January 07, 2013, 11:17:35 PM

Quote from: BCB on January 07, 2013, 11:15:24 PM

"I give up!"

++1

lol, in the end you are correct. Im put in a position where people listen, so I need to make sure 15000% everything I say is accurate.

That's funny! +1 to both of you.

giszmo

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WalletScrutiny.com

Guys don't be so hard on Charlie. Charlie did a really really great job and should not stress about details. I'm sure he has best intentions to find a good balance between relaxed talking and accurate information.

You are seriously discussing now if we will assymptotically reach 21,000,000Ƀ or if we will stop at 20,999,999.9999999Ƀ.
Saying "No Fees" vs. "Very small fees" also is a political decision that some favor the one over the other for their agenda. It's not like he wouldn't know these details. If you feel like he doesn't know the difference between successor and predecessor (seriously?) mention it, else please relax a bit about a great interview.

FreeMoney

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Strength in numbers

Quote from: notme on January 08, 2013, 03:25:15 AM

Quote from: FreeMoney on January 08, 2013, 02:31:09 AM

It's definitely hard to talk well about Bitcoin, very good job imo. I'd never heard these guys, they sound a lot like FTL.

The network does not adjust to reduced mining power in 10 minutes, in fact it can take much longer than 2 weeks.

There is no reason to wait for more than 6 confirmations even for an enormous transaction. Your partner is absolutely not going to have ~45% mining power and count on luck to go faster than the network for 6 blocks. He can either rollback 30 as easily as 6 or he can't roll back 6. It's a much smaller 'lie' to say that 6 is solid than it is to say there are no fees.

The no fee claim bothers me but I know from previous conversations that you are fairly set on it.

If you had gotten into discussing mining like they wanted to you might have been in a sticky spot when they asked about mining incentive after the reward drops to zero, which it does btw, you seemed to imply that you thought it would get ever smaller without going to zero though I think you only said that it would not reach 21M, which is true (caused by reward going to zero, not getting infinitely smaller).

You pretty much hit all my complaints, although even if he was right about it getting infinitely smaller (which would be possible if we kept extending the number of decimals) it still not reach 21M. The sum of 1/2^n with n from 1 to infinity converges to 1. The bitcoin creation can be thought of as 21,000,000/2^n coins each four year period, so it will still never exceed 21M if we extend the divisibility infinitely.

Right, if it halved forever it would fail to reach it because of asymptotes blah blah. But in reality it fails to reach it because of adding.

julz

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Quote from: notme on January 08, 2013, 03:25:15 AM

You pretty much hit all my complaints, although even if he was right about it getting infinitely smaller (which would be possible if we kept extending the number of decimals) it still not reach 21M. The sum of 1/2^n with n from 1 to infinity converges to 1. The bitcoin creation can be thought of as 21,000,000/2^n coins each four year period, so it will still never exceed 21M if we extend the divisibility infinitely.

My recollection of high school maths tells me that it might be described as 'asymptotically' approaching 21 M.
Is the word asymptote really too geeky for general use?

notme

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Quote from: FreeMoney on January 08, 2013, 02:31:09 AM

It's definitely hard to talk well about Bitcoin, very good job imo. I'd never heard these guys, they sound a lot like FTL.

The network does not adjust to reduced mining power in 10 minutes, in fact it can take much longer than 2 weeks.

There is no reason to wait for more than 6 confirmations even for an enormous transaction. Your partner is absolutely not going to have ~45% mining power and count on luck to go faster than the network for 6 blocks. He can either rollback 30 as easily as 6 or he can't roll back 6. It's a much smaller 'lie' to say that 6 is solid than it is to say there are no fees.

The no fee claim bothers me but I know from previous conversations that you are fairly set on it.

If you had gotten into discussing mining like they wanted to you might have been in a sticky spot when they asked about mining incentive after the reward drops to zero, which it does btw, you seemed to imply that you thought it would get ever smaller without going to zero though I think you only said that it would not reach 21M, which is true (caused by reward going to zero, not getting infinitely smaller).

You pretty much hit all my complaints, although even if he was right about it getting infinitely smaller (which would be possible if we kept extending the number of decimals) it still not reach 21M. The sum of 1/2^n with n from 1 to infinity converges to 1. The bitcoin creation can be thought of as 21,000,000/2^n coins each four year period, so it will still never exceed 21M if we extend the divisibility infinitely.

FreeMoney

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Strength in numbers

It's definitely hard to talk well about Bitcoin, very good job imo. I'd never heard these guys, they sound a lot like FTL.

The network does not adjust to reduced mining power in 10 minutes, in fact it can take much longer than 2 weeks.

There is no reason to wait for more than 6 confirmations even for an enormous transaction. Your partner is absolutely not going to have ~45% mining power and count on luck to go faster than the network for 6 blocks. He can either rollback 30 as easily as 6 or he can't roll back 6. It's a much smaller 'lie' to say that 6 is solid than it is to say there are no fees.

The no fee claim bothers me but I know from previous conversations that you are fairly set on it.

If you had gotten into discussing mining like they wanted to you might have been in a sticky spot when they asked about mining incentive after the reward drops to zero, which it does btw, you seemed to imply that you thought it would get ever smaller without going to zero though I think you only said that it would not reach 21M, which is true (caused by reward going to zero, not getting infinitely smaller).

molecular

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Quote from: odolvlobo on January 08, 2013, 01:51:32 AM

Quote from: Yankee (BitInstant) on January 07, 2013, 11:17:35 PM

lol, in the end you are correct. Im put in a position where people listen, so I need to make sure 15000% everything I say is accurate.

I think you did a great job. It is very difficult to explain bitcoin in layman's terms. Thank god they didn't interview Amir Taaki.

Amir tends to slip towards talking about free software and freedom in general. This is also not a bad approach because this is one of the main reasons for bitcoin.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: Yankee (BitInstant) on January 07, 2013, 11:17:35 PM

lol, in the end you are correct. Im put in a position where people listen, so I need to make sure 15000% everything I say is accurate.

I think you did a great job. It is very difficult to explain bitcoin in layman's terms. Thank god they didn't interview Amir Taaki.

molecular

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Quote from: Yankee (BitInstant) on January 07, 2013, 06:37:11 PM

Quote from: molecular on January 07, 2013, 03:39:12 PM

listening to Charlies explanation attempts I am shocked to realized how many falsehoods or at least half-truths one has to use to avoid overcomplicating things and confusing the hell out of your listener.

EDIT: well, saying the block reward is 50 BTC is uneccesary, though.

Like?

see my youtube comment:

Quote from: molecular@youtube

charlie, good job on explaining. However, you need to check some of your facts, I think, especially on the technical side:

* bitcoin makes no use of RSA. It uses ECDSA for signatures and SHA256 for proof of work
* the block reward is not BTC 50. It just halfed in early November to 25 BTC
* 600,000 miners (parts of distributed computer) seems awfully high to me. I'd guess more like 20 to 30,000

All this doesn't invalidate your points, though. Thanks for your work.

Yankee (BitInstant)

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Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem

Quote from: BCB on January 07, 2013, 11:15:24 PM

"I give up!"

++1

lol, in the end you are correct. Im put in a position where people listen, so I need to make sure 15000% everything I say is accurate.

BCB

vip

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BCJ

"I give up!"

++1

Yankee (BitInstant)

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Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem

Quote from: BCB on January 07, 2013, 11:01:23 PM

Gavin was Satoshi's successor (NOT predecessor!)

I used the wrong word, but corrected myself later.

Quote from: BCB on January 07, 2013, 11:01:23 PM

Bitcoin was created by a cryptographer or a group of cryptographers who took on the pseudonym Satoshi Nakamato.

Don't just say Satoshi disappeared. It sounds like someone killed him! How could they kill him when he never really existed.

Thats solely your opinion, some people believe it was 1 person, some people believe it was many.

Quote from: BCB on January 07, 2013, 11:01:23 PM

After launching the bitcoin project Satoshi passed the torch on to his successor Gavin Andressen who is currently the lead developer of the bitcoin open source project.

Thats what I said!

BCB

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BCJ

Dude,

You are killing me!

Gavin was Satoshi's successor (NOT predecessor!)

Also,

Bitcoin was created by a cryptographer or a group of cryptographers who took on the pseudonym Satoshi Nakamato.

Don't just say Satoshi disappeared. It sounds like someone killed him! How could they kill him when he never really existed.

After launching the bitcoin project Satoshi passed the torch on to his successor Gavin Andressen who is currently the lead developer of the bitcoin open source project.

Have you butty vorhees write this stuff down for you. Seriously.

People listen to this shit!

Yankee (BitInstant)

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Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem

Quote from: BCB on January 07, 2013, 10:41:19 PM

Charlie, You 've been practicing!

You started off so well.

But you said Bitcoin was NOT a currency in the beginning the 2 minutes later you say it is a currency.

You're on the phone. Write this shit down!

love

BCB

LOL!

Thats not what I said!

I said "To understand it, dont put labels like currency on it yet" I was trying to help people understand it without putting a label on it

Charlie

BCB

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BCJ

Charlie, You 've been practicing!

You started off so well.

But you said Bitcoin was NOT a currency in the beginning the 2 minutes later you say it is a currency.

You're on the phone. Write this shit down!

love

BCB

Yankee (BitInstant)

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Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem

Quote from: julz on January 07, 2013, 07:05:26 PM

Quote from: Yankee (BitInstant) on January 07, 2013, 06:37:11 PM

Quote from: molecular on January 07, 2013, 03:39:12 PM

listening to Charlies explanation attempts I am shocked to realized how many falsehoods or at least half-truths one has to use to avoid overcomplicating things and confusing the hell out of your listener.

EDIT: well, saying the block reward is 50 BTC is uneccesary, though.

Like?

Like.. was this recorded before the block reward drop or something?

At approx 2:10

Quote

Charlie: Right now the miners get paid from the 50 Bitcoins that are rewarded in every single block.. and like you said - that gets smaller.

Im pretty sure that Ive explained we passed the halving, maybe I was going over the information.

What else?

julz

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Quote from: Yankee (BitInstant) on January 07, 2013, 06:37:11 PM

Quote from: molecular on January 07, 2013, 03:39:12 PM

listening to Charlies explanation attempts I am shocked to realized how many falsehoods or at least half-truths one has to use to avoid overcomplicating things and confusing the hell out of your listener.

EDIT: well, saying the block reward is 50 BTC is uneccesary, though.

Like?

Like.. was this recorded before the block reward drop or something?

At approx 2:10

Quote

Charlie: Right now the miners get paid from the 50 Bitcoins that are rewarded in every single block.. and like you said - that gets smaller.

Topic: 2013-01-06 edandethan.com - Show 40 with Chris Ferreira and Charlie Shrem (Read 2344 times)