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Topic: 2013-02-09 On Wikileaks, Bitcoin... - page 2. (Read 3707 times)

legendary
Activity: 1615
Merit: 1000
February 11, 2013, 06:28:15 AM
#25
If you and I trade coffee for shoes we live in state of blissful utopia, with no incentive to disagree or to cheat, rob or steal from each other.

If on the other hand you and I decide to trade our coffee and shoes for currency, perhaps because we'd like a convenient solution to the double coincidence of wants problem, then gravity reverses itself, dogs and cats start sleeping together, and we suddenly transform into evil capitalists who will no doubt slit each other's throats and start raping kittens at the drop of a hat.

That wasn't what the author said at all. They said, if everything was harmonious, Alice and Bob would simply produce what each of them needs and give it to the other, not in trade, just because they can and want to. The argument was that trading is inherently antagonistic, currency or not.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1007
February 11, 2013, 04:37:59 AM
#24
Anarcho-capitalists are under the libertarianism banner. Anarcho-socialists are definitely not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fveMHVufUN4
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
February 11, 2013, 02:54:16 AM
#23
There are a lot of different movements that share the idea that government power is inversely proportional to individual freedom, and they all disagree with each other at a fundamental level. As an example, a libertarian isn't an anarchist. It is true that an anarchist would agree on a lot of points with a libertarian when compared to a socialist, but anarchists and libertarians are still fundamentally opposed in that to first group wants no government whatsoever while the second wants to limit government power.

Anarcho-capitalists are under the libertarianism banner. Anarcho-socialists are definitely not.
full member
Activity: 227
Merit: 100
February 11, 2013, 01:13:28 AM
#22
The economic ideologies espoused in the chapter read like a public Bitcoin address, completely nonsensical. Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1364
Armory Developer
February 11, 2013, 12:35:54 AM
#21
There are a lot of different movements that share the idea that government power is inversely proportional to individual freedom, and they all disagree with each other at a fundamental level. As an example, a libertarian isn't an anarchist. It is true that an anarchist would agree on a lot of points with a libertarian when compared to a socialist, but anarchists and libertarians are still fundamentally opposed in that to first group wants no government whatsoever while the second wants to limit government power.

In that light, the author appears to be lumping several political movements together under the label "libertarian". It is in line with his overall lack of semantic rigor and I think it would be better for everyone to not give credit to this guy's definition of a "libertarian", but rather perceive it as his target scapegoat group around which this essay has been crafted. Essentially, this guy is not offering an honest analysis, rather he was presented with the concept of Bitcoin in association with libertarianism, chose his premise ("this is all evil") and proceeded to link one to the other in somewhat haphazardly fashion. The scary amount of contradictions will attest of that.

I don't think there's much of a need to go after this guy's contradiction to try and prove him wrong. This'll either be a case of preaching to the choir or into deaf ears. What's interesting though, is that in his essay he reveals his fundamental preconception about the economy and human behavior. Here are the 2 most interesting ones:

Quote
She uses her coffee as a lever to get access to Bob’s stuff. Bob, on the other hand, uses his shoes as a leverage against Alice.

Leverage implies negotiations. This person sees all trade as negotiation. The counterpart to negotiation is violence. People negotiate because the alternative is violence. Trade is a voluntary act of discussion for the purpose of profit. If both parties can't achieve profit, trade won't occur. If trade doesn't occur, it doesn't give place to violence. Only lack of profit. The question then is, does this person think profit is an act violence? Is this a shared pattern within Marxists? If profit is violence, is lack of profit a desirable alternative then?

There's another side to this. Negotiation can't occur without leverage indeed. If I want your land and you can't defend it, I'm gonna take it, period. Both parties need to have leverage. If trade was negotiation, then Alice and her coffee would never be able to buy a house from Pete, since Pete cannot possibly need enough coffee in his lifetime to be worth a house (using the author's premise: "we trade for what we need"). The implication is that even if you embrace the author's twisted premise you come to the conclusion that you'll need an intermediary item of barter to conclude any significant trade (whatever you can get straight up for coffee will lose significance in the face of what you can't get). Hence, money is needed.

Quote
she uses his dependency on money to get his shoes
This is a recurring theme I see with a lot of socialist friendly movements and people: "Dependency on money". As if money alone was desirable, disregarding its function in the economy. The idea that people trade for money simply for the money and not the value attached to it is to be oblivious to the organic function money fulfills. People don't have a dependency on money, as some sort of a disease. They simply prefer receiving money instead of another random object. This is where the fundamental discordance appears. This firm conviction that money is an imposed burden instead of a preferred choice. What's amusing about this stand point is that it is contradictory with the Marxist premise, where supposedly people mold reality instead of being molded by it.

Finally, a few quotes that made me go "what?"

Quote
[money is] a systematic reason to cross each other

This is outright dishonest. If all trade is negotiation as the author purports, then regardless of the nature of the trade and the items traded, violence is always the alternative. Money is evil, that's the author's premise, not his conclusion.

Quote
If the libertarian picture of the free market as a harmonic cooperation for the mutual benefit of all was true, they would not need these signatures to secure it. The Bitcoin construction—their own construction—shows their theory to be wrong.

Mutual benefit of all? Now he is bagging Marxist ideology with "Libertarianism". Indeed under Marxist premise, defending your property makes no sense as private property is a big no-no.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
February 10, 2013, 07:22:50 PM
#20
I also noticed the marxist phraseology, especially when he claimed that free trade was a mutual exploitation of the needs of each trader.  

But I didn't mind.  Being marxist is not a crime, and I do not completely object this idea of a mutual exploitation instead of a mutual cooperation.  If you exploit someone, you do it for your own good.  So if two people exploit one another, in the end they both do it for their own good.   It's more of a point of view than anything else.  It seems to me that Adam Smith was saying the same thing but differently when he talked about the invisible hand acting for the good everyone from the pursue of selfish individual interests.


Anyway, what I liked in his text was the description of how bitcoin works, and his thoughts about money and private property.  I especially liked his analysis of money, which he concludes as money being an expression of social conditions where
private property separates means and need
.
 
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
February 10, 2013, 06:47:16 PM
#19
I'm not a libertarian by any means, but it annoys me that he's linking the entire currency to one political ideology.  Undecided

Don't let the silly Marxist get under you skin.  Transmute that annoyance into amusement; just laugh at him.  It's a fun and healthy use of willpower.

Small minds like his can't hope to say anything intelligent about, much less contribute to, the Bitcoin experiment.

So, as an ego defense mechanism, he needs to reduce Bitcoin down to and conflate it with something he has pre-made (supposedly withering) critiques of (IE Libertarianism).

The notion that a hot new technology like Bitcoin has anything to do with an old busted ideology like Marxism is sheer comedy!    Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
February 10, 2013, 05:34:02 PM
#18

I agree. I believe that Satoshi had a libertarian background when he designed Bitcoin, but that doesn't make Bitcoin exclusive to libertarians. It's an idea that can connect with all beliefs: a currency that is free, transparent, and secure.

And it allows congresscritters to hide their bribe stash.  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
February 10, 2013, 05:27:22 PM
#17
Libertarianism may be the ideology that drives Satoshi to create bitcoin, but we don't know that. Bitcoin is very appealing to the libertarians though.

I agree. I believe that Satoshi had a libertarian background when he designed Bitcoin, but that doesn't make Bitcoin exclusive to libertarians. It's an idea that can connect with all beliefs: a currency that is free, transparent, and secure.

He wrote somewhere that the fixed amount could have some appeal for libertarians, something along this line.  The way he used the third person and the conditional to talk about them suggests he is not a libertarian, though he probably sympathizes with the ideology.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 16
February 10, 2013, 05:10:58 PM
#16
Libertarianism may be the ideology that drives Satoshi to create bitcoin, but we don't know that. Bitcoin is very appealing to the libertarians though.

I agree. I believe that Satoshi had a libertarian background when he designed Bitcoin, but that doesn't make Bitcoin exclusive to libertarians. It's an idea that can connect with all beliefs: a currency that is free, transparent, and secure.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
February 10, 2013, 04:41:11 PM
#15

This section in particular really bugged me. To my understanding, libertarian ideology views the role of the state as protection of the rights of the people. Freedom for individuals to live as they choose as long as they do not bring harm to others. In the author's claim of exchange "[producing] an incentive to cheat, rob, and steal", a libertarian would want the intervention of the state in the manner of protecting the individuals who have been harmed, right?

I get the impression that libertarians see a difference between state intervention and state regulation: the state should intervene when the rights of the individual are in danger; the state should not regulate the behaviors of the individual (unless those behaviors harm others). In short, libertarianism is less about "no government" and more about "government fulfilling its proper role."

Some libertarians are anarchists who saw the state as completely illegitimate. This is the ideology of the Silk Road's operator.

Quote
If I'm right, then there are two problems with the author's argument: the incorrect presupposition of the argument's foundation (libertarian ideology fueling Bitcoin), and the misrepresentation of that ideology. This is, to me, one of those arguments where the author's mind was made up before he started.

Libertarianism may be the ideology that drives Satoshi to create bitcoin, but we don't know if satoshi is a libertarian. Bitcoin is very appealing to the libertarians though.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 16
February 10, 2013, 03:47:39 PM
#14
Quote
The libertarians behind Bitcoin might detest state intervention, but a market economy presupposes it. ... The fact that ‘unbreakable’ digital signatures—or law enforced by the police—are needed to secure such simple transactions as goods being transferred from the producer to the consumer implies a fundamental enmity of interest of the involved parties. If the libertarian picture of the free market as a harmonic cooperation for the mutual benefit of all was true, they would not need these signatures to secure it. The Bitcoin construction—their own construction—shows their theory to be wrong.

This section in particular really bugged me. To my understanding, libertarian ideology views the role of the state as protection of the rights of the people. Freedom for individuals to live as they choose as long as they do not bring harm to others. In the author's claim of exchange "[producing] an incentive to cheat, rob, and steal", a libertarian would want the intervention of the state in the manner of protecting the individuals who have been harmed, right?

I get the impression that libertarians see a difference between state intervention and state regulation: the state should intervene when the rights of the individual are in danger; the state should not regulate the behaviors of the individual (unless those behaviors harm others). In short, libertarianism is less about "no government" and more about "government fulfilling its proper role."

If I'm right, then there are two problems with the author's argument: the incorrect presupposition of the argument's foundation (libertarian ideology fueling Bitcoin), and the misrepresentation of that ideology. This is, to me, one of those arguments where the author's mind was made up before he started.
sr. member
Activity: 342
Merit: 250
February 10, 2013, 03:21:09 PM
#13
Oh man, nice catch justusranvier. I can't believe I missed that piece of idiocy.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 16
February 10, 2013, 03:06:52 PM
#12
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
February 10, 2013, 01:54:38 PM
#11
I'm still reading it at the moment, but it feels to me like the author just really does not like libertarians. I'm not a libertarian by any means, but it annoys me that he's linking the entire currency to one political party.  Undecided
The author is a Marxist who is desperately trying to find some combination of mental contortions that can magically transform voluntary exchange into exploitation.

Quote
Yet, the question of who owns which Bitcoin in itself starts to problematise the idea of harmonic cooperation held by people about economy and Bitcoin. It indicates that in a Bitcoin transaction, or any act of exchange for that matter, it is not enough that Alice, who makes coffee, wants shoes made by Bob and vice versa. If things were as simple as that, they would discuss how many shoes and how much coffee was needed, produce it and hand it over. Everybody happy.

Instead, what Alice does is to exchange her stuff for Bob’s stuff. She uses her coffee as a lever to get access to Bob’s stuff. Bob, on the other hand, uses his shoes as a leverage against Alice. Their respective products are their means to get access to the products they actually want to consume. That is, they produce their products not to fulfil their own or somebody else’s need, but to sell their products such that they can buy what they need. When Alice buys shoes off Bob, she uses her money as a leverage to make Bob give her his shoes; in other words, she uses his dependency on money to get his shoes. Vice versa, Bob uses Alice’s dependence on shoes to make her give him money. Hence, it only makes sense for each to want more of the other’s for less of their own, which means deprive the other of her means: what I do not need immediately is still good for future trades. At the same time, the logic of exchange is that one wants to keep as much of one’s own means as possible: buy cheep, sell dear. In other words, they are not expressing this harmonious division of labour for the mutual benefit at all, but seeking to gain an advantage in exchange, because they have to. It is not that one seeks an advantage for oneself but that one party’s advantage is the other party’s disadvantage: a low price for shoes means less money for Bob and more product for her money for Alice. This conflict of interest is not suspended in exchange but only mediated: they come to an agreement because they want to but that does not mean it would not be preferable to just take what they need. This relation they have with each other produces an incentive to cheat, rob, steal. Under these conditions — a systematic reason to cross each other — answering the question who holds the tenner is very important.
Got it?

If you and I trade coffee for shoes we live in state of blissful utopia, with no incentive to disagree or to cheat, rob or steal from each other.

If on the other hand you and I decide to trade our coffee and shoes for currency, perhaps because we'd like a convenient solution to the double coincidence of wants problem, then gravity reverses itself, dogs and cats start sleeping together, and we suddenly transform into evil capitalists who will no doubt slit each other's throats and start raping kittens at the drop of a hat.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
February 10, 2013, 01:42:52 PM
#10
I'm still reading it at the moment, but it feels to me like the author just really does not like libertarians. I'm not a libertarian by any means, but it annoys me that he's linking the entire currency to one political party.  Undecided

An idealogy.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 16
February 10, 2013, 01:36:08 PM
#9
I'm still reading it at the moment, but it feels to me like the author just really does not like libertarians. I'm not a libertarian by any means, but it annoys me that he's linking the entire currency to one political ideology.  Undecided
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
February 10, 2013, 01:03:34 PM
#8
You know what I liked best about this "critique" of Bitcoin? Its irrelevance. You don't like Bitcoin? It doesn't pass your test for "social justice"? Seems a little too "libertarian"? Well, sorry.

But I'm still gonna use it.

Libertarianism? Who care about that? Bitcoin will succeed and fail on its own merit, not because of a couple of radical fringe of idealogue, although we were the early adopters.
sr. member
Activity: 342
Merit: 250
February 10, 2013, 12:53:37 PM
#7
You know what I liked best about this "critique" of Bitcoin? Its irrelevance. You don't like Bitcoin? It doesn't pass your test for "social justice"? Seems a little too "libertarian"? Well, sorry.

But I'm still gonna use it.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
February 10, 2013, 12:39:37 PM
#6
Quote
Libertarian Bitcoin adherents and developers claim that by ‘printing money’ states—via their central banks—devalue currencies and hence deprive their subjects of their assets. They claim that the state’s (and sometimes the banks’) ability of creating money ‘out of thin air’ would violate the principles of free market because they are based on monopoly instead of competition.

Complete nonsensical statement.

Printing money is not a violation of free market principles. It's just stupid in a market in which currencies are allowed to compete with each other. Fiat currencies like the USD have an overwhelming advantage because it's the only form of money accepted by the government, which allows printing money on a whim to be more harmful than otherwise.

I only skim the other part of it, too lazy to read the rest of it. I am not impressed by the eassy, though.
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