[2014-09-18] Bitcoin Core Developer Jeff Garzik Believes NXT is a “Scamcoin” - page 6.

nutildah

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Quote from: Sukrim on September 25, 2014, 08:29:36 AM

Watching a 25 minute video instead of reading a blog post in 3 minutes? Sorry, this is the wrong medium. Feel free to post a transcript...

Also the audio is waaay down on that video, but that's a rather easy fix.

Ergo NXT is bad, right?

The BTC community's jealousy of NXT grows more palpable by the day.

superresistant

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Quote from: arnuschky on September 25, 2014, 10:48:53 AM

Quote from: devphp on September 25, 2014, 09:42:54 AM

Quote

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf

PoS implementation of NXT is a completely different algo than the PoS implementation of Blackcoin or Peercoin that this document refers to.
NXT is open-source and has been achieving distributed consensus for 10 months now

This document is irrelevant.

I doubt it: It's arguments haven't been refuted, as far as I can tell.
See also https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/its-about-time-to-turn-off-pow-mining-770591

I confirm that the PoS of Nxt is unique and totally different from Blackcoin which is also totally different from Peercoin.

arnuschky

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Quote from: devphp on September 25, 2014, 09:42:54 AM

Quote

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf

PoS implementation of NXT is a completely different algo than the PoS implementation of Blackcoin or Peercoin that this document refers to.
NXT is open-source and has been achieving distributed consensus for 10 months now

This document is irrelevant.

I doubt it: It's arguments haven't been refuted, as far as I can tell.
See also https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/its-about-time-to-turn-off-pow-mining-770591

devphp

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Quote

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf

PoS implementation of NXT is a completely different algo than the PoS implementation of Blackcoin or Peercoin that this document refers to.
NXT is open-source and has been achieving distributed consensus for 10 months now

This document is irrelevant.

arnuschky

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Quote from: devphp on September 25, 2014, 09:15:26 AM

Quote from: arnuschky on September 25, 2014, 09:11:12 AM

Phrased my question wrong, sorry.
If NXT is not using PoW, do they use PoS or something else?

PoS.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8928459

Thanks. I just looked it up as well. PoS, so they fail:

Quote

It is not well-advertised, but in fact there has never been an example of a cryptocur-
rency achieving distributed consensus by proof-of-stake. The prototypical proof-of-stake currency,
Peercoin, depends on developer signatures to determine block validity: that is, its consensus is not
distributed. The same fate has befallen other nominally-PoS currencies such as Blackcoin.

From https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf

It even mentions NXT:

Quote

In its initial incarnation, NXT was susceptible to a trivial stake-grinding attack (to be described below)
and could not achieve any consensus. Since becoming closed-source while spamming technically-
illiterate claims at popular conferences, it has fallen out of scope of this document.

devphp

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Quote from: arnuschky on September 25, 2014, 09:11:12 AM

Phrased my question wrong, sorry.
If NXT is not using PoW, do they use PoS or something else?

PoS.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8928459

arnuschky

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Quote from: superresistant on September 25, 2014, 06:45:18 AM

Quote from: arnuschky on September 25, 2014, 06:42:07 AM

Quote from: coretechs on September 20, 2014, 09:16:33 AM

Lots of misinformation here. NXT is not a clone of Bitcoin, it was written from scratch using java + javascript and has almost nothing in common with Bitcoin aside from the general concept of using a blockchain.

How is this blockchain secured, if not by mining? (honest question)

Please, if you never heard about Proof-of-Work and Proof-of-Stake, use google.
It is quite long to explain.

Phrased my question wrong, sorry.
If NXT is not using PoW, do they use PoS or something else?

Sukrim

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Watching a 25 minute video instead of reading a blog post in 3 minutes? Sorry, this is the wrong medium. Feel free to post a transcript...

Also the audio is waaay down on that video, but that's a rather easy fix.

ShroomsKit_Disgrace

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Yeah! I hate ShroomsKit!

Quote from: Sukrim on September 25, 2014, 05:48:19 AM

Again, here are Jeff's arguments:

Quote

It is marketed like a scammy penny stock.

Anon early super large stakeholders + Proof-Of-Stake == the big guys run the table, if they choose. https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf The central bankers are in place from Day One unless they are super-virtuous and give tons away “fairly.”

Anonymous developers

Closed developing process. Source is periodically handed down from the ivory tower to the masses.

Certain notable personages (& key stakeholders) that dodge, dodge, dodge, when an obvious attack vector — mitigated in other crypto-finance projects by known techniques — is highlighted.

Active resistance to making it easier to independently reproduce the software

Technical criticism is routinely met with bizarre behavior (notably from come-from-beyond)

Attacking critics, rather than responding to criticism.

Several security incidents that smell like inside jobs.

Except for the early stakeholders + PoS thingie, most of them are NOT towards the technology but more the developers or community.

Do I have to repost here this video?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r8areoxqag

He answers all these question quite well in my opinion.

superresistant

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Quote from: arnuschky on September 25, 2014, 06:42:07 AM

Quote from: coretechs on September 20, 2014, 09:16:33 AM

Lots of misinformation here. NXT is not a clone of Bitcoin, it was written from scratch using java + javascript and has almost nothing in common with Bitcoin aside from the general concept of using a blockchain.

How is this blockchain secured, if not by mining? (honest question)

Please, if you never heard about Proof-of-Work and Proof-of-Stake, use google.
It is quite long to explain.

toknormal

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Quote from: Sukrim on September 25, 2014, 04:43:42 AM

The more interesting part is that people get upset because NXT is called a scam with a list of reasons, yet people only discuss if it should be called scam or not, not if the reasons are correct or not.

Just because NxT might make a few people a lot of money doesn't make it a scam.

The market will distribute it. The "scam" accusation has long been debunked - by the market no less.

It's a good coin with one of the strongest, most active and creative followings in the entire cryptocurrency economy and it ain't going away anytime soon.

All of these things are relative anyway - there isn't one single criticism that the crypto community have made of NxT that the wider world wouldn't justifiably make of crypto in general. "Centralised", "all owned by a few big holders", "overvalued"....the entire market fits this bill so everyone should just stfu and stop being so hypocritical because the mud slinging's coming to a coin near you soon.

arnuschky

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Quote from: coretechs on September 20, 2014, 09:16:33 AM

Lots of misinformation here. NXT is not a clone of Bitcoin, it was written from scratch using java + javascript and has almost nothing in common with Bitcoin aside from the general concept of using a blockchain.

How is this blockchain secured, if not by mining? (honest question)

devphp

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Exactly, most of them have nothing to do with technology. If it has nothng to do with technology, then it's just a personal dislike for how things look, personal = subjective. There are thousands of users who obviously like how things look and don't have a problem with all those listed issues. It would be more natural for Jeff to argue on the basis of technical merits or faults, as he is also a software engineer.

Sukrim

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Again, here are Jeff's arguments:

Quote

It is marketed like a scammy penny stock.

Anon early super large stakeholders + Proof-Of-Stake == the big guys run the table, if they choose. https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf The central bankers are in place from Day One unless they are super-virtuous and give tons away “fairly.”

Anonymous developers

Closed developing process. Source is periodically handed down from the ivory tower to the masses.

Certain notable personages (& key stakeholders) that dodge, dodge, dodge, when an obvious attack vector — mitigated in other crypto-finance projects by known techniques — is highlighted.

Active resistance to making it easier to independently reproduce the software

Technical criticism is routinely met with bizarre behavior (notably from come-from-beyond)

Attacking critics, rather than responding to criticism.

Several security incidents that smell like inside jobs.

Except for the early stakeholders + PoS thingie, most of them are NOT towards the technology but more the developers or community.

devphp

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Activity: 336

Merit: 260

Quote from: Sukrim on September 25, 2014, 04:43:42 AM

The more interesting part is that people get upset because NXT is called a scam with a list of reasons, yet people only discuss if it should be called scam or not, not if the reasons are correct or not.

The thing is those who call NXT a scam don't know how to discuss, because they haven't read the whitepaper. And when someone asks them to prove their point, having no technical knowledge on how things operate, they repeat 'scam, scam' or roll around the old Nothing-at-stake argument which is not even relevant for NXT implementation of PoS, as this term was coined for Peercoin's PoS, which is a completely different PoS algo. They just bunch together all different implementations of PoS and call it scam without giving it any thought, you can't even come close to discussing reasons with these people

superresistant

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Quote from: Sukrim on September 25, 2014, 04:43:42 AM

The more interesting part is that people get upset because NXT is called a scam with a list of reasons, yet people only discuss if it should be called scam or not, not if the reasons are correct or not.

The problem is that people use words that have different/opposite definitions.

In the case of Nxt, if you call it a scam, define scam first.

Sukrim

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The more interesting part is that people get upset because NXT is called a scam with a list of reasons, yet people only discuss if it should be called scam or not, not if the reasons are correct or not.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: stereotype on September 25, 2014, 03:09:53 AM

Quote from: cbeast on September 25, 2014, 03:02:36 AM

Quote from: devphp on September 25, 2014, 02:50:36 AM

Cryptocurrency is anything that uses encryption techniques and can transfer value and pay for goods and services like any other form of money. If you add other functions on top of that, it stays a cryptocurrency + other functions.

Nice answer. NXT is a "cryptocurrency + other functions." Catchy.

If this is what we are now discussing......the argument that NXT is a 'scamcoin' has been conclusively lost.

Out.

It's fun to watch the moving goalposts. The game hasn't changed, but there's no point in playing our first string anymore. It's fun watching NXT defenders run around scrambling for new obfuscations.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: kodtycoon on September 25, 2014, 03:06:22 AM

Quote from: cbeast on September 24, 2014, 09:37:27 PM

Quote from: kodtycoon on September 24, 2014, 08:20:58 PM

Quote from: cbeast on September 24, 2014, 07:59:58 PM

Quote from: kodtycoon on September 24, 2014, 07:33:25 PM

Quote from: cbeast on September 24, 2014, 07:24:22 PM

Quote from: kodtycoon on September 24, 2014, 06:21:37 PM

Quote from: notthematrix on September 24, 2014, 06:19:56 PM

Despite good intentions , humans can NOT be trusted , they simpley lack control over its own primal emotions.
they simply cant , so its no option to keep humans in a trust position.
this makes NXT no diffrent then the dollar.
and bitcoin diffrent.
Bitcoin does not need trust.

how does nxt put trust in people? Huh

The initial IPO had ten people with 50% of the stake. There is no way to prove that those ten people weren't in fact one person, nor that one person has not acquired more than 50% already. They can then hold their position forever. It's like a priesthood. You must have faith that your authority figures will be honest. NXT's version of PoS allocates the block generation by active stake. Someone with a majority of active stake has the option to attack the network surreptitiously. I doubt they would overtly attack the network because it would devalue the currency, but they would always have plausible deniability if they sporadically attack.

I can't prove that this has happened and nobody can prove that it didn't already or won't happen. You just have to trust people that they won't be greedy enough to try this.

exactly you cant prove anything.. LOL

if you held 50% or 15m+ dollars of a currency, would you screw up the network and cause the value of your holdings to plummet?

what i really love about your arguments, is even if they are totally valid arguments, your going to have a hard time putting the same fight with even remotely similar arguments against nem which i have no doubt in a few weeks you will try, and then fail lol perhaps you should read up on NEM for a bit and prepare your fud in advance Wink

That's why I don't even need to bother reading about NEM. There will always be another PoS. PoS doesn't need an expensive infrastructure, just a marketing gimmick. You say I have valid arguments, yet still call it FUD. Interesting. In fact, I am excited about the possibility of PoS, it's just that none of them are any good yet.

you are right in saying nxt distribution is not very good, but you push it too far, and then it becomes fud.

ok now we are making progress(bolded part)

this is why i brought up nem.. its not PoS. its PoI. proof of importance. in nem your level of importance to the network is what decides your "forging power". it is partly based on how many coins you have but mostly how important you are to the network ie. if you distribute your coins via tx fees or any other transactions to other nodes with high importance then you gain importance. i you hoard, it drops(not by much but enough to deter hoarding). its not about how many transactions you do, but with whom you do transactions. if you make a transaction with a very high fee, your importance will rise a little i think even though the number of coins you have has gone down. people have been trying to break PoI for months with out any luck.

this gives even small holders the opportunity to have a high importance regardless of their lack of coins. it will help increase the already large network effect created by 3000 original stake holders who got 1 million each, the vast majority being unique users/veteran accounts. distribution is pretty much the opposite of nxt. the largest stake holder in nem isnt even 1%. it will have all the features that nxt has and probably more. remote forging(forge with coins in cold storage) is a planned feature for beta (currently in alpha) as well as time synchronization between nodes(security feature). multisig could possibly be a feature ready for beta too but im not sure on that one. also it doesnt use brain wallets. it uses a local wallet but i think it could be a little different than regular bitcoin like local wallets. but for the most part i think its the same thing.

Your importance is based on a high amount coins you have plus how many transaction fees you send to others with a high amount of coins. It sounds like you can build your own importance by sending coins and fees to yourself.

no cheating the system like that doesn't work.. Loads have tried and failed. And it not how many you do nor the size but who you do txs with. Il post the white paper when it's released

I'm sure it will be "The Perfect Game." It will be interesting to see how you apply game theory. The world's casinos are waiting with bated breath.

stereotype

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Quote from: cbeast on September 25, 2014, 03:02:36 AM

Quote from: devphp on September 25, 2014, 02:50:36 AM

Cryptocurrency is anything that uses encryption techniques and can transfer value and pay for goods and services like any other form of money. If you add other functions on top of that, it stays a cryptocurrency + other functions.

Nice answer. NXT is a "cryptocurrency + other functions." Catchy.

If this is what we are now discussing......the argument that NXT is a 'scamcoin' has been conclusively lost.

Out.

Topic: [2014-09-18] Bitcoin Core Developer Jeff Garzik Believes NXT is a “Scamcoin” - page 6. (Read 11030 times)