Topic: [2016-10-02] Dash Partners with Coinfirm for AML/KYC Compliance (Read 1556 times)

@dinofelis. Or what about 1984Coin? I am sure the name really fits them. They are trying to play the role of an overseeing entity. Surely they cannot believe that the average cryptocoin follower is not that stupid.

I suggest BigBrotherCoin.

If I sell, say, personal courses in mathematics for bitcoin, and then I buy VPN access with those bitcoin, at no point I need an exchange.  My student may need to go to an exchange to obtain bitcoin to pay for my courses, but that is perfectly "KYC" and "AML" - unless the student is the son of the owner of the VPN provider, in which case, the circle is closed.  That's the real usage of crypto.  I can sell courses (without having to give half of it to taxes).  I can obtain stuff in exchange for the service I produced and provided.  I don't have to give up taxes over it.  The trade "I produce the service of a course" and "I want to obtain VPN access against it", would, in my current situation, if I were fully law abiding, cost me more than 60% of the initial value provided.  Indeed, on the "income" of the service provided (the course I sell), I have to pay 30% of income taxes, and 20% of "social security contributions".  In other words, I can keep half of the value of my course.  Now when I BUY with that half, another product, like a VPN service, I pay AGAIN 20% of VAT.  So in total, of my initial market value of the sold course, I can obtain something like 40% of it in VPN service.

Of the value I produced (a course), I could only obtain 40% in the market of another good or service ; in my example, a VPN service.

That's why I think crypto is liberating.  If now, it is totally "law abiding" and "traceable", I should also give up 60% of my bitcoins I received when I provided the course.  Then, I don't see why I would go through the hassle of using bitcoin.

I haven't dealt with drugs.  I haven't sold fire arms.  I haven't financed terrorists.  I only wanted to trade freely: provide some value (a course), and obtain some equivalent value (a VPN service).  State and law don't allow me so, if they cannot run away with 60% of that value.

Evan's massive ninja mine is what makes Coinfirm's Dash surveillance possible.

Using Evan's (and probably Otoh's) 1000s of Masternodes, Coinfirm may Sybil attack the network to unravel DarkSend transactions.

Dash should rebrand again and pitch itself as "PanoptiCoin - the only coin that doxes users at the protocol level."

Good point but i am not so sure about the ole "ninja mine" accusation though.
Anything vaguely popular and *mined* could be perceived that way.. such as Bitcoin.
I heard the same thing for example from kids who showed up late over Prime Coin or Quark.
And couldn't Monero be pretty much looked at the same way ?
I have long said.. popular coins are popular.
LOL it's how it works.  

Quit licking the BHA / BHT off your cereal bags shitcoin aficionado's 

And that's why before he went mental over being told Sorry Not Tonight Dear regarding contentious hard forks, Justus Ranvier wrote this:

https://bitcoinism.liberty.me/only-the-black-market-matters/

Only the Black Market Matters

I just want to ask 2 questions. Who is Coinfirm and did they factor in Evan's ninja mine before partnering with them?

Who made Coinfirm an authority in compliance in the cryptosphere?

These organizations that are created could all be very shady. They claim that they will give you compliance but we really do not know who these guys behind it are. If they are young guys from Eastern Europe then I will not give these people any attention.

What a fucking nonsense Dash anonymous coin is partnering for KYC/AML... What a trash, made my day actually. Dash community desperation level - high.

Sure, you can play with the toy.  So what ?  Apart from having the potential to give liberty back to its users, it only brings hassle.  Everything in crypto is more difficult to do than in fiat.  It is the price of liberty.  I'm willing to pay that price, on the condition that I get what I pay for: liberty.  If the idea is that liberty is taken away from crypto as much as it is from other means of payment (fiat), then there's no reason to use it, at all.

Cars bring liberty over trains.  Trains, you have to take them at a specific moment, at a specific place (the railway station).  But trains are easy to use: you pay your ticket, you go to the railway station, and you sit down in the train.  Cars are much more of a pain: you have to take care of them yourself, buy petrol, repair them, and they are often more expensive to use.  You have to drive them yourself.  You can get lost, you can have an accident.  But cars bring liberty: you can go where you want, when you want.  That's why you pay that price.
Suppose now that one obliges car owners to park their car at the railway station, and only drive at specific times, following given tracks, to given destinations.  In order to use your own car, you have to order a voyage with it in a given catalogue, you have to go at the specified time at the railway station, and drive it exactly as they tell you, to another railway station as they specify it to you.  Owning a car would be totally ridiculous.  You better take the train: less hassle.  You've lost the extra liberty the car brought to you, it has to suit exactly the same rules and limitations as the train, and it only brings in extra costs and hassle.

Same with crypto.  If crypto has to comply to everything fiat complies automatically to, then crypto is just more hassle.  There's no need for it, it doesn't solve any issue (any more) that wasn't already solved in an easier way with fiat.

There's one exception: greater fool betting.  That's the principal use of crypto right now, and that is something that will probably remain.  It is an extra toy for gamblers.  I already explained that there's no need to have a block chain for that: tokens as IOU on exchanges is good enough.  With some extra law enforcement on exchanges, they can even be connected to bank accounts in fiat.  You'd have X virtual coins A, Y virtual coins B, and people would trade them on the exchange.  You can always return to your coupled bank account.  No need to have a block chain for those coins.  You hold them on an exchange, or you convert them back to fiat.  You can couple the same bank account to different exchanges, and hence use your fiat to transfer "coins" (IOU) from one exchange to another.  No need for block chain.   And all taxes paid, all laws respected (the bank and the exchange check that).  Everything known to the powers that be, as the law prescribes.

Why crypto then ?


Because "dealing with crypto on exchanges" is NOT using crypto ; it is just gambling on crypto.  You don't need block chains for that, as I told you.

You may be right that what I propose is not going to work, but then, crypto doesn't work, period.  It is like cars in railway stations.  Yes, you can gamble on it.  That's about it.

but the fact remain that all exchange ask for id for AML and KYC. 

Buying or selling Monero through a regulated exchange is like depositing or withdrawing fiat cash from a bank, with one critical difference: Unlike with fiat cash, there is always a very valid and legitimate business reason for depositing or withdrawing large amounts of Monero. The reason for this difference is that crypto currecny exchanges are not banks and unlike banks are not supposed to be used, in most cases, to make third party payments.

No no and no.

Who are you once again to dictate what crypto currencies should be used for and by whom ?

By the way wake the fuck up.. everyone in Crypto is taking FIAT from their bank accounts to buy Bitcoin then to buy Altcoins like Dash or Monero on CENTRALIZED exchanges using picture ID for AML / KYC regulatory reasons.

Where the fuck have you been ? What you don't know how this stuff ACTUALLY works ?

Cryptsy use to rat people out to the Fed's and Coinbase has admitted it too.
And since Poloniex has the same rules i guarantee they are doing it too.

Put away the little dreamer fantasy crap and be real kids.

They will need to follow AML/KYC compliance. What they will not need to follow is proprietary snake oil marketed under the guise of AML/KNC compliance. Take the sample link from Coinfirm I quoted above:

https://www.coinfirm.io/bitcoin/aml/17Qn3TPZJ3MrpSg6qKaxZvqFCqiB99mKKE

Coinfirm alleges that the XBT address 17Qn3TPZJ3MrpSg6qKaxZvqFCqiB99mKKE

a) "Address is close proximity to Drugs Trade"
b) "Address is connected to the Deep Web"

On the basis of these allegations they recommend "Do not transact" effectively blacklisting the XBT.

The balance on this address is 3.428912 XBT or approximately 2092.63 USD.

I will use the United States as an example  since this is one of the strictest jurisdictions when it comes to AML/KNC. First the threshold for reporting is 10,000 USD or a series of transactions totaling over 10,000 USD. I can for example cross the United Sates border carrying 2000 USD in Cash, deposit or withdraw this amount from a bank or use it to pay for goods or services with no reporting or special  AML/KNC requirements. Furthermore if it were US currency there is a very high likelihood that one or more of the bills is contaminated with drug residue making the cash in "close proximity to Drugs Trade".

The equivalent in fiat would be a company that makes detectors for drug residues in currency. They then sell their "solution" to retailers and financial institutions as a means of AMC/KNC compliance. Everyone who pays in cash is then subjected to the test and a series of questions over for example using a 20 USD bill to pay for a meal. This is of course way below any regulatory requirements, but who cares since the real market here for the detectors is small cash transactions. The company will of course protect its "intellectual property" regarding how it came to make the "close proximity to Drugs Trade" allegations. The net effect of this is a very large number of false positives with large numbers of perfectly innocent law abiding people being wrongly accused. Furthermore the accused cannot confront their accuser and the accusation could very well be completely groundless. All of this will eventually get the "solution" thrown out in court, but in the meantime the company gets to sell its snake oil compliance solution to many businesses who genuinely believe that this snake oil will help them with meeting regulatory compliance requirements.

One can of course avoid all of the above, including the multiple false accusations of perfectly innocent law abiding citizens, by making currency from a substance that does not retain drug residues when exposed to a drug.

Edit 1: We must keep in mind that the taint still applies for any amount spent from the tainted address. So my 20 USD bill example is very appropriate.

Edit 2: While the boys and girls will play with their proprietary snake oil, the men and women will focus on the real market. The perfectly innocent law abiding citizens falsely accused by the snake oil peddlers.

Edit 3: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cocaine-contaminates-majority-of-american-currency/

i guess its not that simple,  any institutional entity using crypto as money will need to follow AML/KYC.  which is being addressed by coinfirm for Dash and Bitcoin atm.

 

How will the AML/KYC compliance work? Will Coinfirm swap Dash for fiat if you give it scans of your passport, bank statements, and household bills? You can do that already if you sell Dash on an exchange.

hopefully not

https://www.finextra.com/pressarticle/66317/dash-adds-full-support-for-amlkyc-compliance-with-coinfirm/retail



it seems that this moves will benefit those willing to implement Dash  as payment medium.  hopefully this partnership will lure some big corporate level investor.
 

This is kind of silly, no ?  If you want to do it the legal way, use fiat.  It exists already, it is already totally open to scrutiny if you go by "normal" banks.

The whole idea of crypto is to be able to do without banks and without sticky fiscal fingers, and to do without interference of state and law.  Now, if you want to trade without abiding to the law, and HENCE cannot use fiat, then and essentially only then, crypto has something for you.  Otherwise, crypto is meaningless.  Stick with fiat.  Much easier, no hassle.  But if you want to trade without abiding by the law, you better hide and use something that is difficult to trace.  Hence if you have crypto, it must be anon.  If not, you don't need crypto, and you can do it with fiat, banks and lawyers too.

We don't need any adoption that is legal, do we.  If it's legal, there's no need for crypto.

Hmm interesting and sounds like a step in the opposite direction than the other ANON style coins.

I have said for ages a certain level of accountability may be helpful for adoption.
Maybe the Dash people are seeing what i mean too ?

The 100% anon fantasy is great & all but there is a barrier that needs to be addressed first.. ADOPTION.
It won't matter what features a coin has if it never goes anywhere and is never widely adopted & USED !
..as a "currency"

Not as a digital token on centralized exchanges *only* whoa are already AML / KYC compliant anyway.

Lets be realistic, mature & honest here guys.

And please don't use the word "Fintech" it sounds lame & trendy hipsterish.

I am quoting this from the Dash thread since this is a more appropriate place to discuss this once this thread was moved to the alt-coin section and there is also now a clear indication on the stance of the Dash community on this partnership.