[2018-02-10] Japanese Crypto Investors To Pay Tax Of Up To 55 Percent On Profits

tee-rex

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Quote from: pixie85 on February 18, 2018, 04:17:16 PM

Quote from: Samarkand on February 18, 2018, 08:49:00 AM

Great analogy, I will use this one for sure in future discussions (I´m out of sMerits currently, but I
hope that someone else will merit you for this beautiful analogy).

Another aphorism with regard to taxation that I really like:
"If stealing 100% of the working power of someone is called slavery...
at what percentage does it stop being slavery?".

The main difference between slavery and contribution is the choice. As long as you can choose how much you want to give it's not slavery. If the contribution is forced upon you it usually means slavery because you're working for the benefit of others.
Taxes are slavery despite the amount because if you don't pay up you'll eventually get locked up. To simplify they are willing to take away your rights for not working for them.

In fact, that remains to be seen. For example, when you steal from somebody, they can demand you pay back what you took. Would you call that slavery too? Well, I think regular thieves may certainly do, but we all understand (I hope) that this is not the case. But taxes are like that, at least they claim to be them like that. Basically, with taxes you pay back what you have taken or consumed as public good.

Emin90

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Merit: 11

As if the State is not interested in the well-being of citizens and always trying to snatch a piece and in this case, this piece is very large.All the while trying to climb into the pocket of citizens and you are right that citizens would spend money in their country and it is better for the economy. But such actions have forced open a business in those countries where the tax is much lower!

Mikhail 777

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This of course is not very good news for the Japanese guys, it will be necessary to look for the circumvention of the laws. If you pay this tax, then nothing will remain. The market is very unstable and it's bad.

pixie85

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Activity: 2184

Merit: 531

Quote from: Samarkand on February 18, 2018, 08:49:00 AM

Great analogy, I will use this one for sure in future discussions (I´m out of sMerits currently, but I
hope that someone else will merit you for this beautiful analogy).

Another aphorism with regard to taxation that I really like:
"If stealing 100% of the working power of someone is called slavery...
at what percentage does it stop being slavery?".

The main difference between slavery and contribution is the choice. As long as you can choose how much you want to give it's not slavery. If the contribution is forced upon you it usually means slavery because you're working for the benefit of others.
Taxes are slavery despite the amount because if you don't pay up you'll eventually get locked up. To simplify they are willing to take away your rights for not working for them.

Quote from: Samarkand on February 18, 2018, 08:49:00 AM

Regarding the actual topic I think that these high-tax countries like Japan and France
are simply choking the growth of their economy. There is a reason why businesses thrive
in a low-tax environment and businesses relocate from high-tax countries all the time.

You are correct. If you allow people to make money they will have to use the profits to benefit the economy. They will hire people to build a house, dig a pool, buy cars, pay for fuel. They will send their kids to better schools, buy more food. They will also hire more people to work for them.

Emin90

member

Activity: 210

Merit: 11

I, too, think that this very many for taxes. You can do less, even if the user who earns more than $ 300,000 will pay 55% of it will be very frustrating because it's an impressive figure.I hope they will have some loophole to escape from such high taxes

Samarkand

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Quote from: darkangel11 on February 16, 2018, 02:58:59 PM

...
Of course! And can you really blame people for doing it? If you had a friend that agreed to help you move things around and you threw him a 20kg bag, he'd most likely take it and come back for another one. If the bag was 40kg he'd complain about it being heavy but still keep going. If you asked him to carry 60 kg he'd be like hell no! I don't want to hurt myself! Taxes are a burden that should be made as light and easy to carry, so that people won't have the reason to complain and avoid them. Japan is overdoing it same as those countries that are imposing extremely high taxes on the rich, like France.

Great analogy, I will use this one for sure in future discussions (I´m out of sMerits currently, but I
hope that someone else will merit you for this beautiful analogy).

Another aphorism with regard to taxation that I really like:
"If stealing 100% of the working power of someone is called slavery...
at what percentage does it stop being slavery?".

Regarding the actual topic I think that these high-tax countries like Japan and France
are simply choking the growth of their economy. There is a reason why businesses thrive
in a low-tax environment and businesses relocate from high-tax countries all the time.

odolvlobo

legendary

Activity: 4466

Merit: 3391

Quote from: kryptorian on February 17, 2018, 05:50:13 AM

With that said, we should however remember that there is an optimal level of tax burden in the economy (think Laffer curve here), and it may be a lot higher than what some or even most people may think. And that could be one of the reasons why the Japanese government levies so high taxes given that the local population is law-abiding in general.

The optimal level of tax burden is 0. The Laffer curve describes the maximum level of tax generation. The goals are not the same.

CryptoBry

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Merit: 355

After all the dust is settled and the bottomline of all the bravado will always be taxation. Tax and death are two of the most unavoidable things in this world. The more tax the better. We are just hoping that maybe soon there can be fairer percentage of tax levied against income in cryptocurrency trading as we know that the risks involved is also potentially great. It should be treated just like any other type of investment such as stocks or forex and must never be given another category as far as taxation is concerned. One thing is for sure...in lieu of recognition tax is inevitable.

kryptorian

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Quote from: darkangel11 on February 16, 2018, 02:58:59 PM

Quote from: tee-rex on February 15, 2018, 08:38:14 AM

This will likely cause a massive tax evasion in the future. I don't mean anything outright illegal but rather something more like the "loopholes" people are discussing here. For example, you can become a tax resident of a country which has a soft tax regime in respect to cryptocurrencies (countries like Italy or Denmark) and officially pay (or not pay) your Bitcoin capital gains taxes there, thus avoiding paying the same taxes in Japan. Though I don't know if Japan has double-tax agreements with these countries.

Of course! And can you really blame people for doing it? If you had a friend that agreed to help you move things around and you threw him a 20kg bag, he'd most likely take it and come back for another one. If the bag was 40kg he'd complain about it being heavy but still keep going. If you asked him to carry 60 kg he'd be like hell no! I don't want to hurt myself! Taxes are a burden that should be made as light and easy to carry, so that people won't have the reason to complain and avoid them. Japan is overdoing it same as those countries that are imposing extremely high taxes on the rich, like France.

Can't agree more with you guys!

Another example definitely worth mentioning here is Sweden with their so-called Scandinavian socialism. This country is notoriously famous for their insanely high tax burden that many people living there find too heavy or even inappropriate. In the past, a lot of public figures like celebrated sportsmen such as Björn Borg moved to live in other European countries where they wouldn't have to pay extortionate taxes on their high earnings.

With that said, we should however remember that there is an optimal level of tax burden in the economy (think Laffer curve here), and it may be a lot higher than what some or even most people may think. And that could be one of the reasons why the Japanese government levies so high taxes given that the local population is law-abiding in general.

darkangel11

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Don't let others control your BTC -> self custody

Quote from: tee-rex on February 15, 2018, 08:38:14 AM

This will likely cause a massive tax evasion in the future. I don't mean anything outright illegal but rather something more like the "loopholes" people are discussing here. For example, you can become a tax resident of a country which has a soft tax regime in respect to cryptocurrencies (countries like Italy or Denmark) and officially pay (or not pay) your Bitcoin capital gains taxes there, thus avoiding paying the same taxes in Japan. Though I don't know if Japan has double-tax agreements with these countries.

Of course! And can you really blame people for doing it? If you had a friend that agreed to help you move things around and you threw him a 20kg bag, he'd most likely take it and come back for another one. If the bag was 40kg he'd complain about it being heavy but still keep going. If you asked him to carry 60 kg he'd be like hell no! I don't want to hurt myself! Taxes are a burden that should be made as light and easy to carry, so that people won't have the reason to complain and avoid them. Japan is overdoing it same as those countries that are imposing extremely high taxes on the rich, like France.

tee-rex

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Quote from: J. Cooper on February 11, 2018, 03:50:17 AM

Quote from: Irvinn on February 10, 2018, 08:13:47 AM

The size of taxes, of course, is impressive. However, it should be borne in mind that with small profits and tax deductions will be small. A little more than half of the profits are taken as taxes only if the profit is more than 367,000 dollars. I do not even know who can have such a big profit.

I think you shouldn't underestimate the amount of cryptocurrency millionaires that are actively trading. So for them it's easier to net $367,000 in profits annually since their initial investment capacity is a lot bigger. Of course this will target the people who are already rich but u think 55% is a little too much.

This will likely cause a massive tax evasion in the future. I don't mean anything outright illegal but rather something more like the "loopholes" people are discussing here. For example, you can become a tax resident of a country which has a soft tax regime in respect to cryptocurrencies (countries like Italy or Denmark) and officially pay (or not pay) your Bitcoin capital gains taxes there, thus avoiding paying the same taxes in Japan. Though I don't know if Japan has double-tax agreements with these countries.

btrice7

newbie

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Is not it a lot of money to pay between 15% and 55%?I started to be afraid of the states.

FirEaSeA

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That 55% is ridiculous. It's best for them to move to a country that asks less than 10%.

Rooster101

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Merit: 256

This will be the price of legalizing bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Many countries including those who already banned the use of cryptocurrencies might be looking for similar option of legalizing virtual currencies and at the same time impose regulations and taxes in every transaction or profits. A tax of up to 55% might be too much in my country if the government decided to impose taxes in cryptocurrencies.

darkangel11

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Don't let others control your BTC -> self custody

Quote from: Carlton Banks on February 12, 2018, 05:46:50 AM

Quote from: richardsNY on February 11, 2018, 08:07:39 PM

I consider these tax rates to be a legal form of theft from the side of the government

If government services were so amazing, people would pay without being physically threatened. It's a protection racket.

Cannot agree more.

If you think about it, even percentage based income tax is unjust in its most basic form. If we assume that the more you work the more you earn, the more you work the more you pay in tax, so percentage based income tax is promoting laziness and punishing smart and innovative people.
If we add that those hard workers get into the higher tax bracket and have to give up 50% of their income, it's like slavery. Why aren't people treated the same? Where are those principles of equality that we were supposed to uphold? I see nothing equal in one person paying 15% and the other 50%.

Fredyink

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Quote from: Karartma1 on February 12, 2018, 02:21:12 PM

“Corporations barely pay taxes. The corporate tax rate is already very low, but corporations have worked out an array of complicated techniques so they often don't have to pay taxes at all... The scale of sheer robbery by corporate power is enormous.”
― Noam Chomsky

“Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness... but only when you pay your taxes? That means your freedom is rented, leased, & not unalienable.”
― Steve Maraboli

“The collection of taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to the public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny.”
― Calvin Coolidge

“Death and taxes in life are certain, knowing how to pay only your fair share is third.”
― Yvette D. Best

Some of them pay taxes and get their money back. Robbery at it's finest.

Quote from: Lucius on February 13, 2018, 06:12:32 AM

Quote from: richardsNY on February 11, 2018, 08:07:39 PM

Wherever you are from, what are the tax rates that apply to you when it comes to your profits?

There from where I am BTC is still relatively unknown,especially for the tax office.So if I want to pay the tax on any cryptocurrency profits it become nightmare and the mountain of paperwork.But depending on the status employed / unemployed,and knowing the holes in the law I can pay from 20% and up to 60%.I consider everything above 30% as legal robbery,so best way for me when selling is to do that with someone directly and get cash on my hand.

But I hold most of my coins for future,when times come I will try to find way to pay as much as possible less taxes.If that means I need to move in some other country it will not be a problem.I am sure I will stay away from Japan Wink

I agree anything above 30% is to much. But better 55% from rich ones. 55% is too high. If there is not even on hole to avoid this one,government would lower it for sure. There are always corrupt ones that don't pay that tax.

1Referee

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Quote from: orions.belt19 on February 13, 2018, 12:50:47 PM

But wouldn’t be taxes be imposed as well once adoption is made and bitcoin is used a currency? Governments will find ways to generate revenue since bitcoin has been rendering huge sums of money and they would want to have some of it as well. A way for them to do that is to impose some taxes, and they may not stop with income taxes. Mass adoption may introduce a new chapter of regulations.

It all depends on what your government considers Bitcoin to be when it comes to what taxes you end up paying. If we look at one common standpoint of governments, then it's safe to say that they will probably never put it in the category of currencies, because they don't see it as such, and perhaps that's a good thing for everone in the long run. One way or another, the government is always looking for ways to tax people, and if they think it's justified (in their benefit) that they can introduce a completely new tax policy, then they surely will, regardless of how Bitcoin is being used, or what it is classified as. The government with its tax policies is nothing more than a parasite sucking the life and wealth out of its host.

orions.belt19

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on February 10, 2018, 09:00:25 AM

So, as cryptocurrencies become legalized in many countries, user start finding out how many taxes they have to pay when they sell their coins, but this leads to a question - can you legally avoid those taxes if instead of selling coins for a profit you just use them as a currency? If yes, then it can become a big boost for crypto adoption, until governments will close this potential loophole.

But wouldn’t be taxes be imposed as well once adoption is made and bitcoin is used a currency? Governments will find ways to generate revenue since bitcoin has been rendering huge sums of money and they would want to have some of it as well. A way for them to do that is to impose some taxes, and they may not stop with income taxes. Mass adoption may introduce a new chapter of regulations.

Lucius

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Quote from: richardsNY on February 11, 2018, 08:07:39 PM

Wherever you are from, what are the tax rates that apply to you when it comes to your profits?

There from where I am BTC is still relatively unknown,especially for the tax office.So if I want to pay the tax on any cryptocurrency profits it become nightmare and the mountain of paperwork.But depending on the status employed / unemployed,and knowing the holes in the law I can pay from 20% and up to 60%.I consider everything above 30% as legal robbery,so best way for me when selling is to do that with someone directly and get cash on my hand.

But I hold most of my coins for future,when times come I will try to find way to pay as much as possible less taxes.If that means I need to move in some other country it will not be a problem.I am sure I will stay away from Japan Wink

Karartma1

legendary

Activity: 2310

Merit: 1422

“Corporations barely pay taxes. The corporate tax rate is already very low, but corporations have worked out an array of complicated techniques so they often don't have to pay taxes at all... The scale of sheer robbery by corporate power is enormous.”
― Noam Chomsky

“Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness... but only when you pay your taxes? That means your freedom is rented, leased, & not unalienable.”
― Steve Maraboli

“The collection of taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to the public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny.”
― Calvin Coolidge

“Death and taxes in life are certain, knowing how to pay only your fair share is third.”
― Yvette D. Best

Topic: [2018-02-10] Japanese Crypto Investors To Pay Tax Of Up To 55 Percent On Profits (Read 377 times)