[2018-11-09]Bitcoin Trailblazer Jeff Garzik Says Bitcoin ‘Unquestionably. . .

BitHodler

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Quote from: 1Referee on November 15, 2018, 06:20:49 AM

Bitcoin is meant to function as a currency, the store of value aspect is just an extension of that.

Agreed. It has always been a currency before it turned into a speculative vehicle. SilkRoad and a couple of other sites selling legal products were the first ever use case demonstrations, and that's what we should go back to.

I'm however less optimistic about its current use case as a currency without LN being optimally functional. People started to believe/=/accept that the store of value aspect is the only thing that matters.

When you're here for the gains only, yeah it's easy to convince yourself of that, but I'm glad that the other group of Bitcoiners want to see it become cash as well, and I'm in that camp as well. Use matters and attracts value.

gentlemand

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Quote from: 1Referee on November 15, 2018, 06:20:49 AM

Quote from: 1BTC EQUALS 1CAR on November 15, 2018, 02:25:13 AM

People should accept that bitcoin is not really meant as a means of payment but just a store of value. There are a lot of coins out there that needs more exposure that can get the job done. You guys can check Digibyte and Nano as a better contender for that qualifications.

Bitcoin is meant to function as a currency, the store of value aspect is just an extension of that.

People using Bitcoin don't mind paying the necessary fees to get next block confirmations, and even yesterday with the transaction peak due to the dump, the fees were still well under $0.10 for Segwit transactions. People happily use PayPal to pay like $5-$10-$100 in fees and don't say a word, but when Bitcoin's fee rise a tiny bit (still way under $0.50 for legacy transactions) it's suddenly a big deal?

By the time LN is mature enough to function as proper mass layer for payments, altcoins will serve solely as speculative tool. What's better than Bitcoin + instant payments?

Surely something can only become a currency after it's thought of as a store of value, vastly even more so when it's appeared out of thin air like bitcoin has.

Use as currency, widespread use rather than the early nutters, will be the last thing to fall into place, not the first.

1Referee

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Quote from: 1BTC EQUALS 1CAR on November 15, 2018, 02:25:13 AM

People should accept that bitcoin is not really meant as a means of payment but just a store of value. There are a lot of coins out there that needs more exposure that can get the job done. You guys can check Digibyte and Nano as a better contender for that qualifications.

Bitcoin is meant to function as a currency, the store of value aspect is just an extension of that.

People using Bitcoin don't mind paying the necessary fees to get next block confirmations, and even yesterday with the transaction peak due to the dump, the fees were still well under $0.10 for Segwit transactions. People happily use PayPal to pay like $5-$10-$100 in fees and don't say a word, but when Bitcoin's fee rise a tiny bit (still way under $0.50 for legacy transactions) it's suddenly a big deal?

By the time LN is mature enough to function as proper mass layer for payments, altcoins will serve solely as speculative tool. What's better than Bitcoin + instant payments?

1BTC EQUALS 1CAR

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People should accept that bitcoin is not really meant as a means of payment but just a store of value. There are a lot of coins out there that needs more exposure that can get the job done. You guys can check Digibyte and Nano as a better contender for that qualifications.

bbc.reporter

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I reckon that would depend. The crowd of new people that would come in the cryptospace will be scammed by people like Jeff because he will use his credential as someone who was there from the beginning.

They will be scammed before knowing the truth.

gentlemand

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 12, 2018, 08:14:35 PM

Yes but if the mainstream news media give him more publicity than someone in the bitcoin core development team, the crowd of new people going in the cryptospace would think he and his group are the influencers.

Also, I predict the next Bloomberg interview on him would be about his new project hehehe.

All anyone has to do is spend a few minutes reading, not that they'll bother, to figure out what he stands for now. And he has zero influence over Bitcoin itself so it don't really matter. He's burnt his bridges there most comprehensively.

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: gentlemand on November 12, 2018, 06:24:39 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 11, 2018, 08:55:09 PM

Why do the mainstream media listen to him and give him the publicity. He is not a bitcoin trailblazer, he attacked bitcoin by creating segwit2x because he also was with the group of people that thought bitcoin would be better as a payment system, not a store of value.

He was there in the earliest of days and that still gives you considerable weight, in the eyes of some at least, no matter how batty, slutty and compromised you become further down the road. Considering some cabbage who arrived in crypto a few months back can get on TV making meaningless predictions, he's going to be perceived as valid.

Yes but if the mainstream news media give him more publicity than someone in the bitcoin core development team, the crowd of new people going in the cryptospace would think he and his group are the influencers.

Also, I predict the next Bloomberg interview on him would be about his new project hehehe.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: BitHodler on November 11, 2018, 08:47:50 PM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on November 11, 2018, 06:35:00 PM

if fees rise significantly, the market will be driven to segwit and other voluntary upgrades like schnorr signatures. users will seek services with lower fees and services will attempt to capture that demand. that's just rational incentive at work. fee pressure = real motivation to optimize transaction size/batching and also real motivation to build things like LN. i'm not so pessimistic about it.

Schnorr is quite far away and doesn't translate into much of an advantage if you don't consolidate multiple inputs. At best it will result in a slight throughput increase, but that advantage is gone quickly with more demand for block space.

LN is far away from becoming rookie friendly, so that's not much we can do with right now. What we do have right now is SegWit, and there is no way the big block camp is going to change anything about their anti SegWit campaign.

This isn't 2016/2017 anymore. We're dealing with way more entities all trying to use the network at the same time. One spark causing the market to bounce up and down again will result in the fees to explode.

It's not about being pessimistic, but more realistic.

you seem pessimistic about fees rising. i welcome it. i think rising fees drives innovation and optimization by users and businesses. it also forces us to pay closer to the actual cost of transactions, rather than always piggy backing on the mining subsidy. i'm happy to pay 100x the current fees or much more eventually. sure, i would transact less often (on-chain at least) but hey, this is how we prevent a tragedy of the commons.

gentlemand

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 11, 2018, 08:55:09 PM

Why do the mainstream media listen to him and give him the publicity. He is not a bitcoin trailblazer, he attacked bitcoin by creating segwit2x because he also was with the group of people that thought bitcoin would be better as a payment system, not a store of value.

He was there in the earliest of days and that still gives you considerable weight, in the eyes of some at least, no matter how batty, slutty and compromised you become further down the road. Considering some cabbage who arrived in crypto a few months back can get on TV making meaningless predictions, he's going to be perceived as valid.

bbc.reporter

legendary

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Why do the mainstream media listen to him and give him the publicity. He is not a bitcoin trailblazer, he attacked bitcoin by creating segwit2x because he also was with the group of people that thought bitcoin would be better as a payment system, not a store of value.

BitHodler

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on November 11, 2018, 06:35:00 PM

if fees rise significantly, the market will be driven to segwit and other voluntary upgrades like schnorr signatures. users will seek services with lower fees and services will attempt to capture that demand. that's just rational incentive at work. fee pressure = real motivation to optimize transaction size/batching and also real motivation to build things like LN. i'm not so pessimistic about it.

Schnorr is quite far away and doesn't translate into much of an advantage if you don't consolidate multiple inputs. At best it will result in a slight throughput increase, but that advantage is gone quickly with more demand for block space.

LN is far away from becoming rookie friendly, so that's not much we can do with right now. What we do have right now is SegWit, and there is no way the big block camp is going to change anything about their anti SegWit campaign.

This isn't 2016/2017 anymore. We're dealing with way more entities all trying to use the network at the same time. One spark causing the market to bounce up and down again will result in the fees to explode.

It's not about being pessimistic, but more realistic.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: BitHodler on November 11, 2018, 03:12:56 PM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 11, 2018, 01:04:17 PM

But sadly people like Garzik don't understand that Bitcoin succeeded as store of value thanks to small blocksize and big block Bitcoin would quickly turn into a mess like other altcoins.

At some point the base block size needs to be increased, because we're nearing a point at which we're exhausting all the voluntary options to better utilize the current block space, and I'm sure that the next bull run is that deadline.

SegWit won't ever be globally utilized with how the big block camp controls such a large percentage of the ecosystem, that we should be happy with even 60% support, because there simply isn't much more to gain.

if fees rise significantly, the market will be driven to segwit and other voluntary upgrades like schnorr signatures. users will seek services with lower fees and services will attempt to capture that demand. that's just rational incentive at work. fee pressure = real motivation to optimize transaction size/batching and also real motivation to build things like LN. i'm not so pessimistic about it.

dreamhouse

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Sounds like the Bitcoin now becomes a collectible with values... I would like to see it more as a valuable trading token, such as gold.

1Referee

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 11, 2018, 03:35:25 PM

The devs will only agree to increase the blocksize when they will be confident that it won't harm the network. Maybe it will happen in a next few years, maybe in 5 years, maybe in 10, it's really hard to say.

It won't happen. Bitcoin isn't BCash where the far majority of the nodes are operated by just a few players licking each other's ass.

It's already near impossible to get the majority to upgrade to the most recent core versions, let alone have people line up to upgrade simultaneously. The risks by far aren't worth the 'gain' we would see kick in. Bitcoin has proven that users aiming for quality and security are willing to pay higher fees to obtain a spot in the next block.

On top of that, there isn't even a need to increase the blocksize with how we still aren't dealing with non stop full blocks. The backlog that forms during intensive day time usage hours is taken care of during the night. Fees are currently less than a penny. Even if the fees do a x100 it's still a dollar.

The main obstacle are the shitty clients not being able to properly calculate fees. They significantly inflate fees when the mempool fills up, which is unnecessary.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: gentlemand on November 11, 2018, 02:48:50 PM

We just had a big ass bug. And I'm sure there are plenty of little niggles we never hear about that don't massively matter. The difference is the thousands of eyes pointing towards it all intent on making it as good as it can be. No one cares if the average shitcoin is broken as long as they can play with it on an exchange.

But this bug got fixed before it could get exploited, unlike the DAO fiasco and other altcoin fails. Bitcoin so far has never made people lose big amounts of money.

Quote from: BitHodler on November 11, 2018, 03:12:56 PM

At some point the base block size needs to be increased, because we're nearing a point at which we're exhausting all the voluntary options to better utilize the current block space, and I'm sure that the next bull run is that deadline.

Blocksize will never be increased just because it "needs" to be increased, because the blocks are full and there's a huge backlog growing. The devs will only agree to increase the blocksize when they will be confident that it won't harm the network. Maybe it will happen in a next few years, maybe in 5 years, maybe in 10, it's really hard to say.

gentlemand

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Quote from: BitHodler on November 11, 2018, 03:12:56 PM

At some point the base block size needs to be increased, because we're nearing a point at which we're exhausting all the voluntary options to better utilize the current block space, and I'm sure that the next bull run is that deadline.

Can you imagine how a hard fork to increase block size would play out? Because I can't. Everything conceivable has been thrown at it to stop one. I can't see that changing despite any pressing need that pops up.

Every day it doesn't happen makes the possibility ever more remote.

BitHodler

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 11, 2018, 01:04:17 PM

But sadly people like Garzik don't understand that Bitcoin succeeded as store of value thanks to small blocksize and big block Bitcoin would quickly turn into a mess like other altcoins.

At some point the base block size needs to be increased, because we're nearing a point at which we're exhausting all the voluntary options to better utilize the current block space, and I'm sure that the next bull run is that deadline.

SegWit won't ever be globally utilized with how the big block camp controls such a large percentage of the ecosystem, that we should be happy with even 60% support, because there simply isn't much more to gain.

LN will take some time to be user friendly and safe enough for everyone to use. It might even take 12-24 months from where we are today. That's why I seriously hope to not face another bull run any time soon.

gentlemand

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 11, 2018, 01:04:17 PM

But if we ignore the price, the technology has proved itself to be very good, Bitcoin doesn't suffer from bugs, unlike other cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin doesn't suffer from 51% attacks and other consensus failures. But sadly people like Garzik don't understand that Bitcoin succeeded as store of value thanks to small blocksize and big block Bitcoin would quickly turn into a mess like other altcoins.

We just had a big ass bug. And I'm sure there are plenty of little niggles we never hear about that don't massively matter. The difference is the thousands of eyes pointing towards it all intent on making it as good as it can be. No one cares if the average shitcoin is broken as long as they can play with it on an exchange.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: Kakmakr on November 10, 2018, 02:08:32 AM

Try telling that to the people who bought at $19 000 last year. Roll Eyes

Yes, sure if you are a early adopter like him, then $6000+ might still be a good store of value, but for the majority of the people who have entered the scene last year, this might be their worst store of value. Tongue

I am also glad his push for Block size scaling failed, because we would never have scaled as a global payment network, if we followed that roadmap. Roll Eyes

But if we ignore the price, the technology has proved itself to be very good, Bitcoin doesn't suffer from bugs, unlike other cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin doesn't suffer from 51% attacks and other consensus failures. But sadly people like Garzik don't understand that Bitcoin succeeded as store of value thanks to small blocksize and big block Bitcoin would quickly turn into a mess like other altcoins.

veleten

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Quote from: Kakmakr on November 10, 2018, 02:08:32 AM

Try telling that to the people who bought at $19 000 last year. Roll Eyes

Yes, sure if you are a early adopter like him, then $6000+ might still be a good store of value, but for the majority of the people who have entered the scene last year, this might be their worst store of value. Tongue

I am also glad his push for Block size scaling failed, because we would never have scaled as a global payment network, if we followed that roadmap. Roll Eyes

oh yeah, if he has given away more coins than many of us combined will ever see in our lives (15.700+ allegedly) and must be holding ten times that if not more,
then bitcoin is certainly a store of value

I believe it can evolve as a payment network , lets wait and see what does the Lightning network offer when it is fully operational
meanwhile if not store of value,bitcoin is a perfect speculative instrument for sure

Topic: [2018-11-09]Bitcoin Trailblazer Jeff Garzik Says Bitcoin ‘Unquestionably. . . (Read 458 times)