Topic: [2019-09-02] Argentina capital controls, a strong case for bitcoin (Read 545 times)
September 13, 2019, 05:37:48 AM
In case another recession occurs at some point of time in the future, then I believe that Bitcoin will gain a lot of popularity and acceptability. Many of the countries are collapsing from the public debt, as the debt vs GDP ratio has gone much above the permissible levels. Complete meltdowns have occurred in countries such as Greece and Cyprus, and many more countries are likely to follow. Some of the fiat currencies are going to become worthless.
September 12, 2019, 01:44:48 PM
Hello guys,
I am from Argentina. I would like to tell you that Bitcoin is quite popular in my country and I think the fundamental reason is that Argentines do not trust our currency and our governments. Of course, the main choice will always be the US dollar but many people, especially young people, are choosing cryptocurrencies to try to diversify their portfolio.
Our history has taught us not to rely too much on the rules imposed by the governments. Therefore, I would say that there is no country where you can take advantage of the benefits of cryptocurrencies better than Argentina.
I want to take the opportunity to share the link to my website where I will upload the 10 most important news of the day regarding the world of cryptocurrencies. I hope you find it useful, please keep in mind that it is still a draft version.
https://mervalnews.wixsite.com/crypto
Thanks and regards!
Alberto
I am from Argentina. I would like to tell you that Bitcoin is quite popular in my country and I think the fundamental reason is that Argentines do not trust our currency and our governments. Of course, the main choice will always be the US dollar but many people, especially young people, are choosing cryptocurrencies to try to diversify their portfolio.
Our history has taught us not to rely too much on the rules imposed by the governments. Therefore, I would say that there is no country where you can take advantage of the benefits of cryptocurrencies better than Argentina.
I want to take the opportunity to share the link to my website where I will upload the 10 most important news of the day regarding the world of cryptocurrencies. I hope you find it useful, please keep in mind that it is still a draft version.
https://mervalnews.wixsite.com/crypto
Thanks and regards!
Alberto
September 07, 2019, 10:27:07 PM
You can walk into a jewerly store and have it converted to fiat, while with Bitcoin you don't have that level of acceptance there. Gold jewelry is commonly accepted as a valuable good that can be exchanged to fiat at any time, which makes it even easier for people to liquidate pure Gold coins/bars.
Sure, but he was talking about trading large amounts without drawing attention himself. Trading a necklace or a ring is one thing. Walking in to a pawn shop with 10 ounces in pure gold is going to attract more attention than sending one bitcoin from your wallet to another.OK... In case $15,000 is needed for the emergency expenses, then the user needs to sell 10 oz. of gold (as per the current prices). But there is no requirement of doing this conversion in one go. He can go to 10 different pawn shops, and sell 1 oz each. In Latin American countries, there is no scarcity of pawn shops and you can find them in any nook and corner.
If you use Bitcoin instead, then it won't attract any attention from the authorities. You can do peer-to-peer transaction and receive the amount in physical cash (banknotes). But in case the user lives in some second tier city with very few Bitcoin users, do you think that it will be easy for him to find a buyer who is willing to purchase such large amounts of coins?
September 07, 2019, 03:57:57 PM
In that regard, it's not a problem at all for someone to store $10,000 worth of Gold at home.
Doable? Yes. Safe? Not at all.Corruption is widespread in Argentina. The police regularly take bribes from criminals, let them operate in safe zones that they don't police, or even work with criminal rings. The government is hardly any better. If someone discovers you are storing $10,000 worth of gold in your house, that becomes a big problem.
You can walk into a jewerly store and have it converted to fiat, while with Bitcoin you don't have that level of acceptance there. Gold jewelry is commonly accepted as a valuable good that can be exchanged to fiat at any time, which makes it even easier for people to liquidate pure Gold coins/bars.
Sure, but he was talking about trading large amounts without drawing attention himself. Trading a necklace or a ring is one thing. Walking in to a pawn shop with 10 ounces in pure gold is going to attract more attention than sending one bitcoin from your wallet to another. September 07, 2019, 07:52:13 AM
To trade gold without the attention of the authorities, he must be storing the gold himself in his house and trading one-on-one with another person? That's incredibly risky. Or is it being stored by a bank or other institution? That's even riskier since the government can confiscate it whenever they want, and any trades done via said institution will be visible by the authorities.
I'm not sure if you own Gold coins or Gold bars, but they are quite small and do allow you to store a lot of value in them. In that regard, it's not a problem at all for someone to store $10,000 worth of Gold at home. For most people in Argentina that's quite easy and convenient, especially with how they don't trust banks anymore.
You can walk into a jewerly store and have it converted to fiat, while with Bitcoin you don't have that level of acceptance there. Gold jewelry is commonly accepted as a valuable good that can be exchanged to fiat at any time, which makes it even easier for people to liquidate pure Gold coins/bars. It's really not that difficult or risky as you make it appear to be.
September 07, 2019, 03:48:18 AM
And it may not be easy to convert large amount of BTC to fiat without attracting the attention of the authorities. If he had gold instead of BTC, then it will still be easier.
How will this be easier?In both scenarios, he is trading something for cash. To trade gold without the attention of the authorities, he must be storing the gold himself in his house and trading one-on-one with another person? That's incredibly risky. Or is it being stored by a bank or other institution? That's even riskier since the government can confiscate it whenever they want, and any trades done via said institution will be visible by the authorities.
With BTC, it's as simple as sending coins from one wallet to the other and handing over the cash. Quick and easy, and also invisible to the authorities. Also, as pesos become more worthless, and foreign currency becomes ever more difficult to obtain, bitcoin will become accepted as a method of payment by more and more vendors and retailers. Trading it for fiat will become less necessary as time goes on.
September 07, 2019, 01:20:48 AM
There's nothing stable about having $10,000 as pieces of paper on Friday, then only having an empty space where the pieces of paper were previously sitting on Saturday morning.
I agree with what you posted. But do you think that in case there is an emergency, it will be easier to convert Bitcoin back to fiat currency? They have all these capital controls and converting fiat to BTC and vice versa is going to be extremely difficult. Suppose a particular individual had opted for BTC instead of USD. It will make him immune to confiscation by the authorities. But let's say he suddenly faces a cash requirement, in the form of medical expenses or similar issues. The hospital authorities are not going to accept BTC, and they'll accept only the Peso or USD. And it may not be easy to convert large amount of BTC to fiat without attracting the attention of the authorities. If he had gold instead of BTC, then it will still be easier.
September 06, 2019, 08:11:22 PM
@cr1776. It will then be their political class' fault if they lose the trust of the people. In the next election or the next change in regime, the people will choose the opposite of the incumbent. I have read about a country electing a murderer for a president. I reckon the president before him must be learned, belonging to a political class but very corrupt and who failed his people.
It may be the political class' fault but if the history of Argentina tells us anything, the people won't choose the opposite, they will choose more of the same: voting for the people who promote envy and promise "free" stuff.
I was implying more about the people choosing the candidate with an opposite image. Look at America since the 1990s. There was Bush then Clinton, Clinton then George W, George W then Obama, Obama then Trump hehehe.
However yes, they are all the same corrupt gang of thieves, only with different agendas.
September 06, 2019, 02:30:09 PM
Is it that easy to convert your wealth to some stable asset such as gold or United States Dollar in Argentina?
No, and the government just made it harder. They are trying to force people to use the peso rather than instantly offload it to some other currency, which helps to drive it's rampant inflation. If no one wants a currency, if no one believes it has any value, then it becomes worthless. This is pretty much exactly what happened in Zimbabwe. The populace lost faith in the government and in their currency. The government banned all foreign currencies and tried to force people to use their currency. This didn't stop people buying other currencies, just created a black market and made the government currency even less valuable than it already was.The situation with the peso will not improve while the current Argentinian government continue down this path. Inflation will continue, and the rate of inflation is likely to increase. Holding peso only guarantees a massively loss of purchasing power. Bitcoin is rapidly becoming the most obvious (and easiest to access) alternative.
September 06, 2019, 09:35:39 AM
The point to be noted here is "as little of my net worth in pesos as possible". Is it that easy to convert your wealth to some stable asset such as gold or United States Dollar in Argentina? From what I have heard, it is not.
define "stable"
in these circumstances, paper dollars are the only option if dollars is what you want. and paper is easy to confiscate, and not so easy to hide.
hence the reason for this story. Bitcoin is, in practical terms, more valuable than the dollar in Argentina.
There's nothing stable about having $10,000 as pieces of paper on Friday, then only having an empty space where the pieces of paper were previously sitting on Saturday morning.
September 06, 2019, 08:57:10 AM
They are risking the money they have left if they do nothing. Their currency is devaluing constantly. It is currently around 60 pesos to the dollar. A month ago it was 45 pesos to the dollar. A couple of years ago it was 10 pesos to the dollar. If I were Argentinian, I'd be holding as little of my net worth in pesos as possible.
The point to be noted here is "as little of my net worth in pesos as possible". Is it that easy to convert your wealth to some stable asset such as gold or United States Dollar in Argentina? From what I have heard, it is not. And that's why they have capital controls. The situation is not as bad as Venezuela, but they are definitely moving in that direction.
September 06, 2019, 04:43:38 AM
@cr1776. It will then be their political class' fault if they lose the trust of the people. In the next election or the next change in regime, the people will choose the opposite of the incumbent. I have read about a country electing a murderer for a president. I reckon the president before him must be learned, belonging to a political class but very corrupt and who failed his people.
It may be the political class' fault but if the history of Argentina tells us anything, the people won't choose the opposite, they will choose more of the same: voting for the people who promote envy and promise "free" stuff.
September 05, 2019, 11:15:28 PM
@cr1776. It will then be their political class' fault if they lose the trust of the people. In the next election or the next change in regime, the people will choose the opposite of the incumbent. I have read about a country electing a murderer for a president. I reckon the president before him must be learned, belonging to a political class but very corrupt and who failed his people.
September 05, 2019, 05:57:10 AM
If Argentina will use bitcoins in order to build economic potential it will be just fine, both for traders and for the country itself
Argentina won't. Their power-hungry political class won't let them. They have demonstrated that for many, many decades. Likewise, many citizens won't let them because they want "free" something so they'll continue to vote for socialism, fascism etc because they are greedy and want someone else to pay for their own choices and the consequences of those choices.
Individual citizens of Argentina might do so though, through self interest and individual choice. That probably won't save Argentina, but it will save those people who are smart enough to make intelligent choices.
Nothing will save Argentina, Venezuela or anywhere else in the world as long as people think they have the right to vote themselves money that someone else earned.
September 05, 2019, 02:58:54 AM
if Harlot thinks saving steadily depreciating currencies is better than saving volatile appreciating currencies, who are we to argue? if Harlot actually believes that, then we'll get we deserve, and so will Harlot
Fact is that the depreciating currencies will save themselves eventually by imploding. It's only a matter of time before this happens, but then we get another shitty government currency people are forced to use.At the end of the day, we don't have to be dragged down by fiat to the fullest and painful extent. If people by now haven't allocated a portion of their net worth to Bitcoin or other assets they're just begging to lose 99% of their purchasing power.
Also, Bitcoin doesn't need to be saved. It has shown growth in terms of price and hashrate consistently throughout the years, and that while people thought this concept was doomed to fail. That's extremely bullish.
September 04, 2019, 03:27:32 PM
^^^
I can't figure out whether to give o_l_e_o a merit or 2 for the above post
on one hand, the points made are solid arguments
on the other, why encourage arguments with such ignorants?
if Harlot thinks saving steadily depreciating currencies is better than saving volatile appreciating currencies, who are we to argue? if Harlot actually believes that, then we'll get we deserve, and so will Harlot
I can't figure out whether to give o_l_e_o a merit or 2 for the above post
on one hand, the points made are solid arguments
on the other, why encourage arguments with such ignorants?
if Harlot thinks saving steadily depreciating currencies is better than saving volatile appreciating currencies, who are we to argue? if Harlot actually believes that, then we'll get we deserve, and so will Harlot
September 04, 2019, 03:17:47 PM
They will just be risking the money they have left if they tried to enter the market.
They are risking the money they have left if they do nothing. Their currency is devaluing constantly. It is currently around 60 pesos to the dollar. A month ago it was 45 pesos to the dollar. A couple of years ago it was 10 pesos to the dollar. If I were Argentinian, I'd be holding as little of my net worth in pesos as possible.I would rather encourage them to hold of the money they have and play it safe on falling stock prices in their stock market just to be safe, buying some bluechip companies is also a good alternative for them.
Two problems with this. How many average Argentinians do you think have an easy on-ramp in to the stock market, and how many people have enough money to buy on the stock market? These are people living in poverty. They are looking to stop their money devaluing so they can use it to buy food, water, pay bills, etc. The government have just made it harder for people to trade pesos for dollars, which is historically what they did to protect themselves against rampant inflation.. The stock market isn't a viable alternative and can't be spent on day to day needs. Bitcoin can. September 03, 2019, 08:51:39 PM
JFK? You can't be serious he was a drugged-up stooge on the path to socialism.
And that's why they killed him, you would probably do the same, the killing culture is very developed in USA.
The mere fact that he was one of the most popular president in recent American history probably doesn't mean anything to you, but if you are American you must be proud with George W. Bush or Trump.
Agreed. However, John F Kennedy had a more lasting legacy in America and passed on that legacy to the bitcoin community. He invented the phrase we are going to the moon hehehe.
September 03, 2019, 02:22:11 PM
A volatile currency won't be the solution here for their country. They will just be risking the money they have left if they tried to enter the market. If they can't even manage the stable fiat currencies they have what made you think that they can also handle a asset that changes price to quickly? On a investors point of view then definitely each citizen must put it into consideration that Bitcoin might be a safe haven for them but are they even ready to enter the market yet? I would rather encourage them to hold of the money they have and play it safe on falling stock prices in their stock market just to be safe, buying some bluechip companies is also a good alternative for them.
September 03, 2019, 12:25:22 PM
The current political landscape in Argentina is suggesting Mauricio and his party will lose power in the upcoming October election. This fact is scaring many investors in the country.
I read a news a few days ago that said that even if Mauricio Macri or Alberto Fernández win, by 2020 Argentina will still be in economic crisis. The biggest problem for Argentina and many countries is the lack of a good alternative to govern the country. Political parties that are years in power, the same people who are years in power cannot bring in new energy, cannot bring in a new healthy system.
What happens is this: A guy X that have 60-year-old and his 30-year-old political party that govern the country win the election. The guy X that have 60-year-old governs the country for 10 years and can't change anything in the country, after 10 years the guy loses elections or another guy from his political party starts running the country.
people will look again the guy X that have 60-year-old (now 75) wanting to govern the country again. Let's face it, what kind of changes can there be? nothing is going to change
The main problem I see is the deep rooted social(ist) system that started with Peron. There are millions of people living/surviving on welfare, a state that has all the natural resources in the world but doesn't invest in modernising its infrastructure to be able to exploit them properly and a small percentage of people who have to pay the huge bill (the middle class).
And then of course you have the trade unions, a real mafia that dictates who will work where, and with which salary and won't hesitate to paralyse the country if the government tries to take away an inch of their power. They have made the once prosperous Argentinian industry completely irrelevant after all these years of meddling.
Any party (right or left wing) that tries to cut the ruinous welfare system can say goodbye to ever being elected or reelected, and as we all know the main interest of politicians is not the well-being of the country but their reelection.
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