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Topic: [2019-10-09] Forbes: Bitcoin Can Help Fight Authoritarian Govts (Read 264 times)

legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Not 100% that I have the details right, but there was maybe a story about the collapse of the USSR that demonstrates how even mundane technology can tip the balance in fragile regimes; supposedly, middle-class Russians used fax machines to communicate coded messages to their anti-regime friends, and to print information pamphlets for the people without a fax machine.

There were many other things that helped to tip the balance, like western radio stations and smuggled goods, but ultimately the big reasons why it fell was because:

1. Its economy was wrecked by the Cold War.
2. There was a lot of inside tensions, as many nations wanted to form their own countries.
3. The soviet leadership was willing to dissolve it.

North Korea is different, their economy is much worse, yet their leadership shows no willingness to change, they would rather die than give up their power.

So, Bitcoin there can only improve individual lives at best, it can't be the power that could topple that regime.

sure. what I meant was that small, innocuous tools can make a significant difference in adding more straw to the camel's back Cheesy but whether that was the last piece of straw before the camel quit is a bit hard to say
legendary
Activity: 4424
Merit: 4794
If a country successfully bans miners, it still won't affect Bitcoin's network much, because mining is spread across the world, the worst case if it happens suddenly and in a country that hosts a large portion of miners, but even then it would just result in some temporary disruption.

and Lightning doesn't need mining to fundamentally operate. So, miner bans are even less disruptive the more Lightning is being used, it's effectively a hedge against any type of disruption to the blockchain layer (but the channel liquidity is of course restricted by however much is available before any problem starts, and at what rate new channels can be opened in the adverse conditions)

oh look CB has gone full altnetwork promoter. saying if bitcoin has issues the altnetwork thats not bitcoin will save him..
wow CB is a true altcoiner now. hope he gives over his btc to a central hub manager and goes play with them millisat tokens.
CB really has forgot the purpose of bitcoin. thus time he moved on

to translate
if banks stop being pegged to gold, its ok fiat bank notes will save people, dont worry about using unbacked fiat which you cant convert to gold because gold conversion has issues. stick with fiat
oh wait. that happened and many people dont realise how bad being loyal to the mess known as fiat is
legendary
Activity: 4424
Merit: 4794
Steak one day and dog food the next? What is he talking about, that's certainly not the Bitcoin I know of.

he is looking at the price today and then working backwards through history
so here is the better version(year average not ATH or ATL)
2009- drop of beef stock gravy
2010- few spoons of minced meat
2011- a burger
2012- steak
2013- a whole shoulder of beef
2014- whole beef ribcage
2015- whole calve
2016- whole cow
2017- a couple cows
2018- a herd of cows
2019- a bigger herd of cows
hero member
Activity: 2114
Merit: 619
It's easier said than done. We people have had a history of different emperors and governments who have framed rules for us and we have quietly obeyed such rules in pursuit of peace and order of our dear ones. Now ruining the idea of governments and a central power altogether is really a very sharp idea which bitcoin is feeding to public. After the Hong Kong protest and people using it as their backup currency has really sparked a lot of words about how people can fight with governments by taking away the economy from them. But comparing Hong Kong with major countries can be a pretty big mistake. Hong Kong was a small city if we see by area with highly educated and affluent people. Most of the countries suffering with Authoritarian Govts don't have such a thing. They are large and demographically differentiated and encompassing a decentralized system in such countries to fight against the Regulators themselves is a very hefty tasks. Whatever Forbes may say Bitcoin is not a very appealing tool to beat authoritarian Govts.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1030
Twitter @realmicroguy
Now that the government completely controls BTC development this is no longer the case.

Why do you think Txs are being pushed out onto L2 custodial nodes?

Go take a look at some of the state money transmitter laws. 1 MB blocks have nothing to do with improving decentralization.

Don't allow Blockstream to gaslight you too.
sr. member
Activity: 644
Merit: 264
Aurox
Steak one day and dog food the next? What is he talking about, that's certainly not the Bitcoin I know of.

Love the irony we see of more and more each day. Forbes talking about trust in an asset they would have been more than happy to diss in the years before. A publication from new media carrying/promoting an illustration of revolution and yet talking about someone from the old school of money having a "deep understanding" of Bitcoin.

In my understanding the statement "steak one day and doog food the next" would refer to the volatility of bitcoin. Possibly it is talking about the 2017 bitcoin bubble wherein it has reached the highest peak of 20k$ but by 2018 it explodes and it went down to 8k$. Those statements are deep but this is just a nature of a market-based currency. I cannot argue with that statement since that is true but sure there was an overstatement since even today even the price dropped bitcoin is not still to be considered a dog food.

But anyway, surely bitcoin has the power to oppose the tyrannical rule of the government since it is not controlled by the government. But even if we can escape the government, we cannot escape the illicit activities of syndicates who are using cryptocurrency especially bitcoin in their daily transactions. And because of that the government has placed a regulations in the use of cryptocurrency and with that even though bitcoin is decentralized somehow the government is catching up.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
Also Bitcoin can help authoritarian govts evade international bans. There's always a back side of the medal.

no they cannot. the thing is when we talk about governments using bitcoin to evade sanctions,... we are talking about billions of dollars transactions not small amounts. bitcoin can not handle that kind of money going in and out of it (buy that much coin, and sell it on the other side). not to mention that a trade is still taking place and it still could be blocked. on top of that any government always wants to force their own fiat on others, they won't be willing to use bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 1526
Merit: 596
Steak one day and dog food the next? What is he talking about, that's certainly not the Bitcoin I know of.

Love the irony we see of more and more each day. Forbes talking about trust in an asset they would have been more than happy to diss in the years before. A publication from new media carrying/promoting an illustration of revolution and yet talking about someone from the old school of money having a "deep understanding" of Bitcoin.
It is just whatever gets them the most clicks, or the most advertising revune, etc. We saw that approach with quite a lot of news outlets back in 2015, and then after a couple years their opinions where completely flipped and they went from BTC being a ponzi scheme to BTC being a get rich method.

Luckily in some countries ruled by dictatorship like in north Korean and Vietnam don't ban bitcoin.
In North Korea people don't even have access to the Internet.

They do have mules. Just like how drugs will always find its way into the borders of even the most restrictive countries, something seemingly innocent as Bitcoin will be there too just as easily.

The beauty of Bitcoin is that you literally only need a small piece of paper with a private key on it. Sure, if you're in North Korea and you don't have an internet connection to verify the actual balance, it will require you to trust the entity you're conducting business with, but considering the small economy there, it's fairly easy to build up trust.

Also don't forget that there are satellites now. Blockstream satellite should even be able to cover North Korea. With some effort, one could also make sure that mules bring in the required hardware to utilize the satellites.
If BTC does find itself in North Korea, it could very well spell the end of their rule, it'll help a lot of people find another way of doing Finance and would be risky for their goverments.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 2162
Not 100% that I have the details right, but there was maybe a story about the collapse of the USSR that demonstrates how even mundane technology can tip the balance in fragile regimes; supposedly, middle-class Russians used fax machines to communicate coded messages to their anti-regime friends, and to print information pamphlets for the people without a fax machine.

There were many other things that helped to tip the balance, like western radio stations and smuggled goods, but ultimately the big reasons why it fell was because:

1. Its economy was wrecked by the Cold War.
2. There was a lot of inside tensions, as many nations wanted to form their own countries.
3. The soviet leadership was willing to dissolve it.

North Korea is different, their economy is much worse, yet their leadership shows no willingness to change, they would rather die than give up their power.

So, Bitcoin there can only improve individual lives at best, it can't be the power that could topple that regime.

legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Also don't forget that there are satellites now. Blockstream satellite should even be able to cover North Korea. With some effort, one could also make sure that mules bring in the required hardware to utilize the satellites.

Not 100% that I have the details right, but there was maybe a story about the collapse of the USSR that demonstrates how even mundane technology can tip the balance in fragile regimes; supposedly, middle-class Russians used fax machines to communicate coded messages to their anti-regime friends, and to print information pamphlets for the people without a fax machine.
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1427
Luckily in some countries ruled by dictatorship like in north Korean and Vietnam don't ban bitcoin.
In North Korea people don't even have access to the Internet.

They do have mules. Just like how drugs will always find its way into the borders of even the most restrictive countries, something seemingly innocent as Bitcoin will be there too just as easily.

The beauty of Bitcoin is that you literally only need a small piece of paper with a private key on it. Sure, if you're in North Korea and you don't have an internet connection to verify the actual balance, it will require you to trust the entity you're conducting business with, but considering the small economy there, it's fairly easy to build up trust.

Also don't forget that there are satellites now. Blockstream satellite should even be able to cover North Korea. With some effort, one could also make sure that mules bring in the required hardware to utilize the satellites.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
If a country successfully bans miners, it still won't affect Bitcoin's network much, because mining is spread across the world, the worst case if it happens suddenly and in a country that hosts a large portion of miners, but even then it would just result in some temporary disruption.

and Lightning doesn't need mining to fundamentally operate. So, miner bans are even less disruptive the more Lightning is being used, it's effectively a hedge against any type of disruption to the blockchain layer (but the channel liquidity is of course restricted by however much is available before any problem starts, and at what rate new channels can be opened in the adverse conditions)


so, on-chain disruptions (like miner bans) are a bit pointless to attackers really
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 2162
But the government can block miners, exchanger, and banks to facilitate transactions so that people can't convert their bitcoin into cash.
If governments really ban bitcoin, there is nothing people can do to avoid that, even bitcoin can't help citizens in authoritarian regimes.

If a country successfully bans miners, it still won't affect Bitcoin's network much, because mining is spread across the world, the worst case if it happens suddenly and in a country that hosts a large portion of miners, but even then it would just result in some temporary disruption.
Banning local exchanges would make things harder for users, but there still would be many methods of converting Bitcoin into fiat - this can be done via PayPal, Skrill and other payment methods.

Luckily in some countries ruled by dictatorship like in north Korean and Vietnam don't ban bitcoin.
In North Korea people don't even have access to the Internet.
hero member
Activity: 1680
Merit: 655
Big CEOs like this one are have either good or bad opinion for cryptocurrencies. The one saying bad opinion and negative comments don't really want anything to do with the crypto industry. The ones saying favorable opinions and positive comments are the ones which has plans on being involved with the industry or at least just at the least the blockchain technology behind it. It's that too obvious for this guys, just take a look at Jack Dorsey and Elon Musk they are very vocal with crypto and they are also involved with the industry. Don't be surprised if Forbes would have some kind of partnership with a project soon or have a blockchain system part of their business it's inevitable to happen when CEOs and owners of businesses are into crypto.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
It's interesting how the community has known about this all of along, while mainstream outlets report this as something sensational or just found.

BTC can play a significant role not only diminishing the control of the government over how the population transacts, but also protects individuals from the imminent depreciation of the currency that they hold. Again, this simply proves critics of bitcoin who say that it has no practical use completely wrong.

it's a reflection of the power interests at play. The implication is that people like Steve Forbes can afford to take the risk of saying this, but (as you point out) late compared to the internet fringe that made Bitcoin popular.

it also implies the regular newsmedia cannot afford to risk even printing the contrarian internet-homegrown perspective on this (and it's really nothing short of reality to say that Bitcoin empowers people, both good and bad).

the overall implication is that all of the media will repsresent a very biased view of Bitcoin, and a view that is biased in favor of the existing (corrupt) financial system. Even the media that are critical of the financial system are curiously critical of Bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 753
It's interesting how the community has known about this all of along, while mainstream outlets report this as something sensational or just found.

But yeah, we can see case studies of this in countries that have authoritarian regimes and economies deep in trouble. The prime example right now is probably Venezuela. With Maduro and Chavez before him, you can probably tell that the economy isn't doing too well with hyperinflation and decline in petrol exports.

BTC can play a significant role not only diminishing the control of the government over how the population transacts, but also protects individuals from the imminent depreciation of the currency that they hold. Again, this simply proves critics of bitcoin who say that it has no practical use completely wrong.
legendary
Activity: 4256
Merit: 1313
Bitcoin is uncensorable and incredibly easy to move around, so oppressive governments cannot block holders from doing what they want with their money.

But the government can block miners, exchanger, and banks to facilitate transactions so that people can't convert their bitcoin into cash.
If governments really ban bitcoin, there is nothing people can do to avoid that,
even bitcoin can't help citizens in authoritarian regimes. Luckily in some countries ruled by dictatorship like in north Korean and Vietnam don't ban bitcoin.

Don't convert to fiat then.  That is the long term solution.

hero member
Activity: 1036
Merit: 514
Bitcoin is uncensorable and incredibly easy to move around, so oppressive governments cannot block holders from doing what they want with their money.

But the government can block miners, exchanger, and banks to facilitate transactions so that people can't convert their bitcoin into cash.
If governments really ban bitcoin, there is nothing people can do to avoid that, even bitcoin can't help citizens in authoritarian regimes. Luckily in some countries ruled by dictatorship like in north Korean and Vietnam don't ban bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 1834
Merit: 759
Steak one day and dog food the next? What is he talking about, that's certainly not the Bitcoin I know of.

Yeah, seems more like an expectation based on Bitcoin's pop culture reputation than recent reality.

Love the irony we see of more and more each day. Forbes talking about trust in an asset they would have been more than happy to diss in the years before. A publication from new media carrying/promoting an illustration of revolution and yet talking about someone from the old school of money having a "deep understanding" of Bitcoin.

Have they ever openly opposed Bitcoin in the past? I usually see mixed opinions from them, but that's more because they publish a lot of opinion pieces from different authors. I don't think I've heard Forbes's official stance before. Either way, I think it's great that they're open to it now.

I don't quite understand how bitcoin can actually help this

Bitcoin is uncensorable and incredibly easy to move around, so oppressive governments cannot block holders from doing what they want with their money.
legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1965
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Well, give the guy credit for highlighting the revolutionary vision of Satoshi Nakamoto for this technology. Satoshi wanted to disrupt the corrupt centralized financial institutions, because the people were suffering as a result of the mistakes that they made.  Angry

Banks are working very close to governments and it is the governments that are using taxpayers money to pay for their mistakes.

So, yes Bitcoin was a cry for help to disrupt these authoritarian institutions and it did this by providing them with a alternative option.  Wink
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