[2019-11-27] One Reason People Aren’t Paying With Bitcoin: Taxes - page 2.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 27, 2019, 12:46:19 PM

Aren't Bitcoin transactions below $500 are exempt from taxes in the US?

no. there have been some bills introduced to congress like the token taxonomy act, which would exempt a total of $600 of capital gains per year from taxes if realized by spending on goods/services. (the per transaction amount wouldn't matter)

right now, there are no exemptions whatsoever.

Quote from: Lucius on November 28, 2019, 06:09:34 AM

I think it only applies to mining, and the amount is set to $400.

Quote from: https://cryptotax.io/en-us/bitcoin-and-taxes-in-the-usa/

In general, all income or rewards received by a taxpayer in excess of $400 generated from the mining of cryptocurrency must be reported to the IRS. The taxpayer must also identify whether they are a hobby or (self-employed) business miner for tax reporting purposes.

that $400 threshold pertains to self-employment income. capital gains taxes are a totally separate issue. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc554

carlfebz2

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Quote from: Lucius on November 27, 2019, 08:38:45 AM

Satisfied people pay taxes much easier than those who do not benefit too much from their governments/states. If I am not entitled to free health insurance, a safe and well-paid job, clean air and water and some other basic things to live for, why would I even pay taxes?

It is also a misconception that when paying with BTC person is avoid tax, maybe in some countries this can be the case, but we have VAT (value-added tax) in EU from 17% to 27% (Hungary) so every time you pay/buy something you pay tax. I buy some things from time to time with BTC, and I think VAT is quite a sufficient contribution to the state on my part.

Agree on what you have said. People would pay taxes willingly if they do saw that they can benefit out of it or they can see progress for those funds to be applied for development and other benefits into its citizens.
Just like yours, anytime i do purchase something then its already being calculated which tax is already included even into any services.Ive even tried to buy up something using crypto but still the
price in total included up the tax.Just wondering on how that merchant will calculate knowing about volatility of btc is high.Well its not my problem anymore. We are still on adoption phase when it comes to bitcoin payment and taxation.

Theb

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The article's body is only based on the whole assumption of businesses are holding crypto after the payments have been receive which in fact isn't the case most of the time. Some people hold it but for businesses wanting to have accurate income from the prices they have on their products they will always instantly convert it into cash, some payment processors like Bitpay and Coinbase Consumer also have that option where their customers will send BTC and what they will receive is a dollar equivalent for it. I don't know but I don't think that the author knows what he is talking about since I might understand if he is talking about small time people having a small business online but including big businesses that accept crypto and hodling it I don't think there is a big possibility of it in the first place.

squatter

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STOP SNITCHIN'

Quote from: Lucius on November 27, 2019, 08:38:45 AM

It is also a misconception that when paying with BTC person is avoid tax, maybe in some countries this can be the case, but we have VAT (value-added tax) in EU from 17% to 27% (Hungary) so every time you pay/buy something you pay tax. I buy some things from time to time with BTC, and I think VAT is quite a sufficient contribution to the state on my part.

Paying nearly 10% sales tax on every purchase in the states already seems oppressive. Of course, we're expected to pay capital gains taxes up to 37% on top of sales tax. And if you trade or invest as a business, you owe an additional 15% in FICA taxes on your Bitcoin gains. It's just jaw-dropping when you think about it!

So, I don't blame anyone for spending their bitcoins to avoid taxes. Especially in the US, where most of our taxes are paying for really horrible wars and military expenditures from decades past anyway. The notion that our tax dollars are mostly funding vital services is a fallacy. It's highway robbery, that's all.

1Referee

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Quote from: buwaytress on November 28, 2019, 07:04:33 AM

Pay for stuff with BTC? Please. That area of adoption is far, far from critical mass.

It's such a niche part of this space. BitPay 2018 processed just over $1 billion worth of payments. If you put that against the +$1 trillion in on-chain value movements, it's an absolute joke. It's even more of a joke when there are large entities such as Roger Ver and Bitmain using BitPay as an exit point, so the actual amount in payments is much lower than that.

Sure, there are more payment gateways, but they all combined can't even tickle BitPay. Bitcoin is too speculative for one side of the market to spend, and too precious for the other side of the market to spend.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: gentlemand on November 28, 2019, 06:15:52 AM

In the UK you have an annual tax free allowance of about £12,000 for capital gains regardless of how long you've held which seems a lot simpler to me.

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 27, 2019, 12:46:19 PM

Aren't Bitcoin transactions below $500 are exempt from taxes in the US? And as for the rest of the world, the tax reporting, especially for smaller amounts, isn't as tight as in the US.

And there's a simple reason for this kind of treatment: resources

Tax offices have got to be targeted in the way they pursue people that don't conform to their code, and so going after people for every packet of chewing gum they buy with untaxed money isn't going to be worth the time and effort. This doesn't mean you should build that Lambo out of packets of chewing gum and matchsticks, I think you might start getting their attention again if you somehow pulled that off Cheesy

buwaytress

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Yep, in a world where people already generally don't really do much about tax (and I'm talking about outside of the US), the writer thinks tax is what's keeping them from NOT paying with Bitcoin?

Need only take a look around in "the space" to see that for the most part, the "crypto enthusiast" has his/her interest in speculation and profit. Like OP says, moon money theories.

Pay for stuff with BTC? Please. That area of adoption is far, far from critical mass.

gentlemand

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Quote from: Lucius on November 28, 2019, 06:09:34 AM

From what I read, all other transactions are subject to tax, whether it is just crypto trading or buying/selling something for Bitcoin. Maybe someone from the USA can confirm exactly what the rules are in case something is paid with Bitcoin. It would be truly unfair to have to pay double tax, VAT+extra tax just because something is paid with Bitcoin.

It's a bit hard to tell what's what as they have short term and long term capital gains and the short term aligns with income tax rates or something. In the UK you have an annual tax free allowance of about £12,000 for capital gains regardless of how long you've held which seems a lot simpler to me.

Lucius

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 27, 2019, 12:46:19 PM

Aren't Bitcoin transactions below $500 are exempt from taxes in the US?

I think it only applies to mining, and the amount is set to $400.

Quote from: https://cryptotax.io/en-us/bitcoin-and-taxes-in-the-usa/

In general, all income or rewards received by a taxpayer in excess of $400 generated from the mining of cryptocurrency must be reported to the IRS. The taxpayer must also identify whether they are a hobby or (self-employed) business miner for tax reporting purposes.

From what I read, all other transactions are subject to tax, whether it is just crypto trading or buying/selling something for Bitcoin. Maybe someone from the USA can confirm exactly what the rules are in case something is paid with Bitcoin. It would be truly unfair to have to pay double tax, VAT+extra tax just because something is paid with Bitcoin.

sikke

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Quote

But it’s not just about willingness to play by the rules. Even those who are perfectly willing to pay taxes on Bitcoin payments are faced with headaches and complicated accounting just to make sure they aren’t breaking the law.

That's the main issue.

If they expect people to comply with tax codes with BTC transactions then there should be easier mechanisms to find out how much liability you actually owe on your transactions, instead of vague guidelines that leave you exposed even if you think you did your taxes correctly.

Also, double taxation is a huge burden on BTC users. It makes no sense to charge both CGT and GST on BTC like in some jurisdictions.

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: gentlemand on November 27, 2019, 07:25:27 AM

Alongside waiting for a less rainy day, the prime reason no one spends it is because hardly anyone earns in it. If that ever changes then I would expect much more flow. It can be a right grind buying it and no one buys something to buy something else. If you have it arriving in your wallet every week that makes for a rather different mind set.

I disagree. Bitcoin's price volatility, the community's hodl mentality and bitcoin's monetary policy are certainly making many people spend their coins more sparingly. Give people bitcoins for nothing and I reckon they will not spend most of it if they knew what it is hehe.

hatshepsut93

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Aren't Bitcoin transactions below $500 are exempt from taxes in the US? And as for the rest of the world, the tax reporting, especially for smaller amounts, isn't as tight as in the US. I personally never paid any taxes on my coins, and I probably won't have to, unless it will be some large transaction like buying a house. A lot of countries have VAT, so you pay your taxes regardless of currency that you use.

audaciousbeing

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The volatility really to me is one impediments to payment of taxes. Putting it into perspective, one can buy 0.01btc say when the price is $100 i.e the value of bitcoin at the time stood at $10000 engage in series of trading till the end of the year thereafter having a net gain of .005btc meaning that his value of btc is 0.015. The twist however is that the price of btc is now is now $6000 which means that even though he has made profit, there is still a loss and because the tax authority would want the tax to be paid using USD, it becomes a problem whether to declare a loss or to declare a profit. This is an issue that needs to be clearly defined if there is going to be voluntary compliance for those who wants to pay.

Lucius

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Satisfied people pay taxes much easier than those who do not benefit too much from their governments/states. If I am not entitled to free health insurance, a safe and well-paid job, clean air and water and some other basic things to live for, why would I even pay taxes?

It is also a misconception that when paying with BTC person is avoid tax, maybe in some countries this can be the case, but we have VAT (value-added tax) in EU from 17% to 27% (Hungary) so every time you pay/buy something you pay tax. I buy some things from time to time with BTC, and I think VAT is quite a sufficient contribution to the state on my part.

gentlemand

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Alongside waiting for a less rainy day, the prime reason no one spends it is because hardly anyone earns in it. If that ever changes then I would expect much more flow. It can be a right grind buying it and no one buys something to buy something else. If you have it arriving in your wallet every week that makes for a rather different mind set.

figmentofmyass

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Quote

Today, almost no one is using Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies for everyday payments. There are a few different reasons for this, including Bitcoin’s price volatility, but that’s far from the only problem. While Bitcoin has become a more stable store of value over time, the tax implications of using Bitcoin for payments remain an impediment to widespread use.

While some Bitcoin enthusiasts have no issue with breaking or bending the law to avoid capital gains taxes on cryptocurrency payments, the mainstream consumer does not necessarily want to take that kind of risk.

regular folks avoid paying taxes all the time. i doubt most people are considering tax implications when spending a few hundred or thousand bucks from their bitcoin stash. most people are also smart enough to know bitrefill, egifter, overstock etc aren't sending out tax reports for buying goods and services.

the real reason people aren't spending is because they're hoarding instead. when the price goes up exponentially again, we'll see another big increase in spending as a form of profit taking.

CryptoBry

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There are certainly many good reasons why ordinary consumers are not magically entranced with Bitcoin. We have to remember that the romanticized reasons for the existence of Bitcoin in 2018-2019 during the economic debacle suffered by the USA are now slowly fading and are now subtle. Now, of course, one big reason for the difficulty in the adoption of Bitcoin by the many merchants is the lack of business volume coming from people who have Bitcoin, all because they are just holding the asset in preparation for that possible bull run. And we could not actually blame these people because for sure Bitcoin is a good digital asset to hold for profitability purpose. On the other hand, there is also no denying that tax matters are not helping the problem. As an ordinary consumer and tax payer myself, why would I want to be courting complications when I have many other personal and work-related things to attend to? That is not just making sense. And we could not expect that the government and the tax collecting agency to just magically simplify things for Bitcoin taxation because they themselves are having a hard time on how to treat Bitcoin. This can be taking a lot of time before things can be harmonized and rationalized.

bbc.reporter

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The author of this article might think that taxes is one reason, however, it is not the main reason. The main reason is most people only use bitcoin for holding and speculation because of its moon math characteristic. We should not be in denial about this.

However, it is a good article about the absurdity of taxation in the cryptospace.

Today, almost no one is using Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies for everyday payments. There are a few different reasons for this, including Bitcoin’s price volatility, but that’s far from the only problem. While Bitcoin has become a more stable store of value over time, the tax implications of using Bitcoin for payments remain an impediment to widespread use.

While some Bitcoin enthusiasts have no issue with breaking or bending the law to avoid capital gains taxes on cryptocurrency payments, the mainstream consumer does not necessarily want to take that kind of risk. This issue around capital gains taxes on Bitcoin payments was debated by Bitrefill CEO Sergej Kotliar and ShapeShift CEO Erik Voorhees at the Bitcoin 2019 conference over the summer.

But it’s not just about willingness to play by the rules. Even those who are perfectly willing to pay taxes on Bitcoin payments are faced with headaches and complicated accounting just to make sure they aren’t breaking the law.

Read in full https://www.longhash.com/en/news/3210

Topic: [2019-11-27] One Reason People Aren’t Paying With Bitcoin: Taxes - page 2. (Read 394 times)