Topic: 21dotco: A bitcoin miner in every device and in every hand - page 2. (Read 3812 times)
The benefit doesn't come to the user...it will be virtually transparent to the user as the gains from micro hashing will be nothing! These devices will simply make BTC the most decentralized and robust network on the face of the planet. The real advantage is to the Bitcoin holders.
I like the concept. Mining should be distributed, not in the hands of a few big players, as it is now. The profits will be negligible, but who cares? mining for profit is over, this solution will maintain the network. Until they prove themselves to be a total scam that is....
Thanks vanderghast for putting what I said into different words 
You're welcome
. Someone had to kill the power usage argument dead. Kept popping up every half hour.Yes that is one dumb argument.
I think they will underclock it on these devices, they know battery sensitive devices can't have standard mining chips. We will see .05 w/ghash while only only maybe producing 20ghash or less on these devices, but it will add up if they have 10,000 phones out there.
10k? Maybe millions
This is really the same as using a faucet you going to be spending more time and energy then its worth.
it is worse actually, one good faucet can give you 1-3k per hour(the best one even more), with 10gigahash/s you are getting only 10k per day, so unless those device are running 50 giga at very least there is no comparison, not to mention the electricity(not from the chip itself maybe, but from the whole device that need to run to be able to mine) unless you can mine without running it, somehing like two switches...
This is really the same as using a faucet you going to be spending more time and energy then its worth.
5) 21 may enable a new kind of Internet, where, people actually pay minute amounts directly, in return for avoiding all those ads.
This is awful. I'm already paying for my Internet. Now I will have to pay even more?
A similar promise was made by pay TV when it first started, that it would be “TV with no ads!”. What happened to that?
Thanks vanderghast for putting what I said into different words
You're welcome
. Someone had to kill the power usage argument dead. Kept popping up every half hour.
Thanks vanderghast for putting what I said into different words
You spend more on electricity than the value of the bitcoins you get back. Therefore the cost of getting bitcoins from 21inc devices is greater than the value of the bitcoin. By definition. If you don't get that, there's not much more to say.
I can get bitcoins cheaper and faster from exchanges, from doing contract work, from localbitcoins, from mining with my own ASIC, and potentially a hundred other ways as bitcoin infrastructure improves.
What are the benefits that I personally get from a 21 inc device? I'm not altruistic enough to spend my money lining the pockets of 21 inc execs and investors, nor am I altruistic enough to spend my own money helping bitcoin's security.
I want a concrete benefit that I can get from 21 inc device that I can't get elsewhere. Otherwise, why would I use it?
I chose to reply to you because yours is a good question that needs to be solidly answered.
1) First see my post above, the relevant way to calculate the cost per mined Bitcoin is the marginal cost of electricity for Bitcoins mined. You get the hardware for free because every chip in every device you own will already carry it by arrangements between the manufacturer and 21. From the 100+ chips in your BMW, to the Nest, Dropcam and every other device.
2) You only choose whether to devote spare computing cycles to Bitcoin mining or not. The Bitcoins produced by those spare compute cycles might already be spoken for. For Eg, imagine a Dropcam with cloud 7 days video recording for free if you turn on the Bitshare chip, vs USD5/month if you don't. As a consumer, you may only receive a prompt "Free cloud recording (Warning: Higher electricity costs)". No mention of Bitcoin anywhere.
3) There's all kinds of "FREE" shit on the Internet right now. Google, Facebook etc etc right? These guys are all altruistic guys who give away stuff and don't make any money right???
4) The Internet today runs on this ad supported model, what VCs call the two sided marketplace. Consumers get content and services for free, while third parties like advertisers pay for access to consumers. Google and Facebook sit in the middle and take a toll on each of these transactions.
5) 21 may enable a new kind of Internet, where, people actually pay minute amounts directly, in return for avoiding all those ads.
6) A lot of this stuff may actually be pretty invisible to customers. You won't need to know what Bitcoin or Bitshare is, or who 21 is. All you need to know is that you can use the Dropcam's Cloud Recording for Free, or Facebook's Ad Free Mode.
7) In short, you already paying for lots of shit you don't know about. Except they playing you like a fiddle, em boys at GOOG and FB, laughing all the way to the bank while you think you getting FREE SHIT. So 21 comes along, and they giving you more FREE SHIT, and you can use that FREE SHIT to avoid the FREE SHIT from FB and GOOG.
Too much uninformed speculation here, so let's clear out the trash.
0) Start out by ignoring smartphones for a moment, because the power issues are significant enough that only in special cases (ie plugged in) will it make sense. Let's looks at other use cases first, specifically non-portable always on devices like routers.
1) 21s chipset technology will be trojan horsed into devices everywhere, at no additional cost to any customer. So you get the technology onto every device you have, courtesy of Qualcomm, Intel and Cisco, plus Chinese manufacturers for FREE. They can do this because adding some an instruction set to a chipset or ASIC is very near costless, if you only consider the marginal cost, ie if you're already building the chip for a router, adding an additional instruction set is a like a few cents of additional cost.
2) AirBnB for chips. The 21 team came from Counsyl, Counsyl came from Vijay Pande's lab. Vijay Pande, was the creator of Folding@Home. So you see, if you're paying 200 bucks for a router, which you only use the 6 waking hours of the day you're at home, then for 18 hours a day, those chips are idle. So that's unused computing power, which could be used for something like folding proteins... or mining bitcoins. Yes it uses power. But hey, you've already paid the capital expenditure for it. You're already paying the operating expense for the router while it is idle, ie vampiric power and uptime. So if you run the Bitshare chip, all you need to pay is for marginal power cost.
3) A lot of Bitcoin mining cost mathematics can get turned upside down if there is no capital cost. Ie if you don't have to earn back the cost of the hardware, then you only have to make more Bitcoin than electricity prices (and in this case, only more than marginal electricity use).
4) This idle hardware issue is actually a pretty large one. Remember that the Internet for the most part is built to handle surge or peak capacity. That's true of everything from data centers to Google. All that computing capacity is idle most of the time right now.
5) Data center costs
Assuming utilization of 20% stepping up to 60% over a 10 year period with, average 40% utilization.
6) Based on 5), if Bitshare pushes up utilisation to 80% average, marginal electricity costs would go up at most by 20% of total costs. Meanwhile they've saved 80% of the cost of mining, which is the capital cost.
7) Remember Bitcoin mining is an embarassingly paralell problem, which means there are fewer economies of scale running it in a datacenter vs a router chip. So the analysis in 5) and 6) will hold at the router chip stage.
Remember also that data centers are already super efficient in terms of capital cost per compute cycle. When compared to consumer electronics, there is no physical distribution cost, no marketing cost etc.
9) In total, basically the marginal electricity cost is small enough that 21 thinks they can mine Bitcoins profitably enough, at current prices, as long as they don't have to bear the capital costs of the chips. In fact, they thing that it's going to be so profitable, that they plan to to take 75% of the Bitcoins mined, and leave you with 25%.
10) That 75% of Bitcoins mined is going to be distributed back to their partners, ie Qualcomm, etc for profits. If this is a profitable business for them, they will start packing in more and more powerful chips into consumer devices. Because utilization of the chips is going to go from 20%-60% to 80%-100%.
11) Hardware as a Service. You pay electricity costs for the mining, and Qualcomm subsidizes the chip costs, over time capital costs for the chips will come down because someone else is paying for it.
12) Over time, 21 only makes real money if Bitcoin becomes huge. They want to be a payment processor, they need volume of transactions. They are not interested in holding the Bitcoin as an investor.
13) So that leads to the other part of the business plan, the 25% share to you. That share, which is basically "free money", allows developers to provide interesting and innovative applications on the Bitcoin platform. Many of these applications may be at first machine to machine applications.
0) Start out by ignoring smartphones for a moment, because the power issues are significant enough that only in special cases (ie plugged in) will it make sense. Let's looks at other use cases first, specifically non-portable always on devices like routers.
1) 21s chipset technology will be trojan horsed into devices everywhere, at no additional cost to any customer. So you get the technology onto every device you have, courtesy of Qualcomm, Intel and Cisco, plus Chinese manufacturers for FREE. They can do this because adding some an instruction set to a chipset or ASIC is very near costless, if you only consider the marginal cost, ie if you're already building the chip for a router, adding an additional instruction set is a like a few cents of additional cost.
2) AirBnB for chips. The 21 team came from Counsyl, Counsyl came from Vijay Pande's lab. Vijay Pande, was the creator of Folding@Home. So you see, if you're paying 200 bucks for a router, which you only use the 6 waking hours of the day you're at home, then for 18 hours a day, those chips are idle. So that's unused computing power, which could be used for something like folding proteins... or mining bitcoins. Yes it uses power. But hey, you've already paid the capital expenditure for it. You're already paying the operating expense for the router while it is idle, ie vampiric power and uptime. So if you run the Bitshare chip, all you need to pay is for marginal power cost.
3) A lot of Bitcoin mining cost mathematics can get turned upside down if there is no capital cost. Ie if you don't have to earn back the cost of the hardware, then you only have to make more Bitcoin than electricity prices (and in this case, only more than marginal electricity use).
4) This idle hardware issue is actually a pretty large one. Remember that the Internet for the most part is built to handle surge or peak capacity. That's true of everything from data centers to Google. All that computing capacity is idle most of the time right now.
5) Data center costs
The cost percentages break down as follows:
Electricity: 20 percent
Engineering and Installation Manpower: 18 percent
Power and Server Equipment: 18 percent
Facility Space: 15 percent
Service and Maintenance: 15 percent
HVAC Equipment: 6 percent
Project Management: 5 percent
Rack Hardware: 2 percent
System Monitoring: 1 percent
Assuming utilization of 20% stepping up to 60% over a 10 year period with, average 40% utilization.
6) Based on 5), if Bitshare pushes up utilisation to 80% average, marginal electricity costs would go up at most by 20% of total costs. Meanwhile they've saved 80% of the cost of mining, which is the capital cost.
7) Remember Bitcoin mining is an embarassingly paralell problem, which means there are fewer economies of scale running it in a datacenter vs a router chip. So the analysis in 5) and 6) will hold at the router chip stage.
Remember also that data centers are already super efficient in terms of capital cost per compute cycle. When compared to consumer electronics, there is no physical distribution cost, no marketing cost etc.9) In total, basically the marginal electricity cost is small enough that 21 thinks they can mine Bitcoins profitably enough, at current prices, as long as they don't have to bear the capital costs of the chips. In fact, they thing that it's going to be so profitable, that they plan to to take 75% of the Bitcoins mined, and leave you with 25%.
10) That 75% of Bitcoins mined is going to be distributed back to their partners, ie Qualcomm, etc for profits. If this is a profitable business for them, they will start packing in more and more powerful chips into consumer devices. Because utilization of the chips is going to go from 20%-60% to 80%-100%.
11) Hardware as a Service. You pay electricity costs for the mining, and Qualcomm subsidizes the chip costs, over time capital costs for the chips will come down because someone else is paying for it.
12) Over time, 21 only makes real money if Bitcoin becomes huge. They want to be a payment processor, they need volume of transactions. They are not interested in holding the Bitcoin as an investor.
13) So that leads to the other part of the business plan, the 25% share to you. That share, which is basically "free money", allows developers to provide interesting and innovative applications on the Bitcoin platform. Many of these applications may be at first machine to machine applications.
Hmm, well, if this thing actually does work, and consumers do decide to go for these devices,
that would mean that 21 Inc would have an advantage over other mining farms/operations as they would save themselves the expenses of electric power.
However, other farms will continue to upgrade their equipment to the latest ASIC technology.
21 Inc, will be stuck with their existing technology and will continuously need to manufacture new appliances.
I don't know if this will work out for them in the long run.
What do you guys think?
that would mean that 21 Inc would have an advantage over other mining farms/operations as they would save themselves the expenses of electric power.
However, other farms will continue to upgrade their equipment to the latest ASIC technology.
21 Inc, will be stuck with their existing technology and will continuously need to manufacture new appliances.
I don't know if this will work out for them in the long run.
What do you guys think?
So who is paying for the power? 21 mentions talk of subsidizing pieces of hardware by including a Bitcoin miner - however this costs much more in power while it will generate less and less bitcoin the longer the device exists. This essentially costs the user more money in the long run.
Well, the consumer obviously will be paying for electricity consumption.
Sure, it will cost the user more IF - and only IF - they choose to get one of them devices.
From the redundant topic:
Current network hashing speed = 352,247.23 TH/s
Ok, then what is the current cost to the providers to serve those 100M smartphones (before subscriber fees)? Would making them a 1M TH/s pool enable all their service to be provided for free, with the providers having the mining proceeds take the place of subscriber fees?
Let's say all existing smartphones magically had these chips added to them. Would it be the highest th/s mining pool? 
10GH/s * 100Million (smartphones) = 1Million TH/sCurrent network hashing speed = 352,247.23 TH/s
Ok, then what is the current cost to the providers to serve those 100M smartphones (before subscriber fees)? Would making them a 1M TH/s pool enable all their service to be provided for free, with the providers having the mining proceeds take the place of subscriber fees?
It's just that the positive aspects of this don't seem to work in a real scenario, at least from my perspective. When you say, I want to buy a $3 game, there's effectively no reason to spend $23 on a $3 game, but spending $23 is not for the game, it's for exchanging currency. And people usually exchange currency in bigger amounts, not in $3 chunks.
If you have an “extra credit” that you can spend on more Internet connection... how did you get your extra credit in the first place? From that phone that is sucking your electricity bill? When you see the whole picture, that “extra credit” is really negative. The only way to get the extra credit for real is not investing in such device in the first place.
If you have an “extra credit” that you can spend on more Internet connection... how did you get your extra credit in the first place? From that phone that is sucking your electricity bill? When you see the whole picture, that “extra credit” is really negative. The only way to get the extra credit for real is not investing in such device in the first place.
Well I'm expecting this to work for the same reasons that you don't expect it to work. What a strange situation right?
That's my reasoning too. If you want to buy a 3$ game why should you be required to have 23$ in order to buy from an exchange? You can easily use your 3$ credit to buy your game. Job done. No other hassle.
No, you don't understand. Spending $3 and spending $23 is in two totally different situations. It's like asking, “If I want to buy a $5 hamburger, why should I spend $200 on a dining table?” Well... no, you don't. You are buying a hamburger, not a dining table. How did you even come up with that connection?
It's just that the positive aspects of this don't seem to work in a real scenario, at least from my perspective. When you say, I want to buy a $3 game, there's effectively no reason to spend $23 on a $3 game, but spending $23 is not for the game, it's for exchanging currency. And people usually exchange currency in bigger amounts, not in $3 chunks.
If you have an “extra credit” that you can spend on more Internet connection... how did you get your extra credit in the first place? From that phone that is sucking your electricity bill? When you see the whole picture, that “extra credit” is really negative. The only way to get the extra credit for real is not investing in such device in the first place.
If you have an “extra credit” that you can spend on more Internet connection... how did you get your extra credit in the first place? From that phone that is sucking your electricity bill? When you see the whole picture, that “extra credit” is really negative. The only way to get the extra credit for real is not investing in such device in the first place.
Well I'm expecting this to work for the same reasons that you don't expect it to work
What a strange situation right?That's my reasoning too. If you want to buy a 3$ game why should you be required to have 23$ in order to buy from an exchange? You can easily use your 3$ credit to buy your game. Job done. No other hassle.
They would be using an asic chip not just the cpu and an app, we know how efficient these chips can be. I am sure for battery sensitive items they will be the the lowest watt usage chip they have.
KnC was advertising 0.07W/GH at chip level. While I don't believe them let's assume a 0.1W/GH. Do you know how much power does a cell phone use in standby and while using it for facebook or whatsapp?
You don't see how these kinds of statements are completely unnecessary and rude? How they are attacks without any basis? You're helpless.
You stated that 21inc wants to add various layers of costs to browsing the internet that we don't have now. Please prove it! If you can't prove it then it's just either lies or your imagination. Correct?
Also you stated that buying a 21inc enabled device will make people spend a lot of extra money. The a lot remark is, again, either lie or your imagination. Correct?
Those are not attacks. It's called reality and debunking your myths! If you can't handle them then stop spreading lies/false information and keep it to yourself. Some people might believe you and that is hurting me.
You could've offered counter arguments against mine by giving an example of how 21 inc could make money without taking advantage of consumers.
You could've offered examples of how 21 inc devices would be beneficial.
Instead, you choose to attack me, saying my statements are false, saying that I'm forcing people my lifestyle, saying i'm imagining things or whatever other crap you came up with. What a troll. You haven't directly answered any of my arguments, only made statements on me.
It doesn't matter even if I make false statements or whatever. That doesn't make your arguments true. You can't point out the benefit of 21 inc to the consumer. All you can do is attack people who have doubts about 21 inc's business. So sad. I'm done responding to you, troll.
You could've offered examples of how 21 inc devices would be beneficial.
Instead, you choose to attack me, saying my statements are false, saying that I'm forcing people my lifestyle, saying i'm imagining things or whatever other crap you came up with. What a troll. You haven't directly answered any of my arguments, only made statements on me.
It doesn't matter even if I make false statements or whatever. That doesn't make your arguments true. You can't point out the benefit of 21 inc to the consumer. All you can do is attack people who have doubts about 21 inc's business. So sad. I'm done responding to you, troll.
Well I have provided counter arguments, but you are so pissed off that you simply don't see them. Here they are again:
You can make money from B2B too. If facebook can make money without asking money from the consumers then other companies can do it too!
Yes I know it is a bit general saying B2B, but I find it to be on par with your argument of "taking advantage of customers". I will try more: while I really suck on doing business in general I think that an example of doing B2B as 21inc is simply an affiliate discount/bonus from Cisco for bringing sales. While I don't find this scenario real I'm just saying that there are a lot more possibilities than the customers. Also we must not ignore the fact that while they have the most money invested they are trying to address the masses. They are the first bitcoin company that is directly targeting the masses of non-bitcoin people. All other companies are targeting bitcoin people and that is also seen in the announced discounts. This doesn't seem like a plan to take advantage of the consumers at all to me. Or at least not in a direct way. I see it in a way that people will not care. Just like Facebook is doing it or Google or Skype and so on. There are MANY companies that don't take advantage of the consumers. Those are your best counter examples!
Again, I would like to remind you that I have pointed out the benefits of 21 inc to the consumer. Look in the previous posts.
And what you see as attacking I'm seeing as stopping the false information.
It's similar to a loan without interest... cheap upfront cost... they make up the difference in mining profits...
As an example your electrical cost may be offset by a higher grade appliance with energy star rating.
It's good for folks that can't afford the upfront cost or don't want to rack up finance charges.
Perfect for renters that have utilities included.
I'm sure 21 could also attract purchase volume discounts (buyers club).
Bottom line is we don't have all of the details... 21 & their investors would be foolish to roll this out without tangible benefits to the end users.
See, this is a good argument. Clear and logical point without personal attacks.
It depends on whether they'll really subsidize for the whole device, or only for their chip. Their calculated cost per bitcoin is only $7.45, so I'd assume the discount consumers get will not be that big. In fact, this
Quote
The slides lay out a plan hinging on embedding 21's custom-made 'BitSplit' mining chips into everyday tech products such as USB chargers, PCs, routers, game consoles, phone chargers and direct chipsets at no cost to the hardware producers. The document suggests 21 had a working demo of its BitSplit chip at the time it was prepared.
Leads me to believe that they're not subsidizing the cost for the consumer at all, only making it free for hardware producers. Of course, I could be wrong. So I agree. We don't have enough details. If you dig back to the other thread when the first rumours were out, I was actually quite supportive of 21 inc. A lot of the recent details doesn't seem like very good news to me though, but only time will tell.
If I recall from the original leak the "equipment" will be offered at a substantial discount... so the initial price should draw more interest than the minor mining/electrical cost & benefits.
I see more reason to be optimistic vs. disappointed.
21 inc is there to make money. That's why investors invested so much money in this company.I see more reason to be optimistic vs. disappointed.
So think about it. Who are they making money off of? Their consumers, of course. There's no way they'll offer a bigger discount than the amount they'll earn back. Which means consumers lose.
Unless they're providing some other form of value, like TVs or routers do, as per RoadStress' examples. Every electric device we have currently gives us some value, which is why we're willing to sacrifice financially to use them. What value does 21 inc provide to the consumer? It's not financial. So what is it? I can't see it.
As an example your electrical cost may be offset by a higher grade appliance with energy star rating.
It's good for folks that can't afford the upfront cost or don't want to rack up finance charges.
Perfect for renters that have utilities included.
I'm sure 21 could also attract purchase volume discounts (buyers club).
Bottom line is we don't have all of the details... 21 & their investors would be foolish to roll this out without tangible benefits to the end users.
So pointing out the false/wrong things that you say is received as a direct attack? Ok. Keep the false statements coming.
Again speaking from your imagination?
You could've offered counter arguments against mine by giving an example of how 21 inc could make money without taking advantage of consumers.
You could've offered examples of how 21 inc devices would be beneficial.
Instead, you choose to attack me, saying my statements are false, saying that I'm forcing people my lifestyle, saying i'm imagining things or whatever other crap you came up with. What a troll. You haven't directly answered any of my arguments, only made statements on me.
It doesn't matter even if I make false statements or whatever. That doesn't make your arguments true. You can't point out the benefit of 21 inc to the consumer. All you can do is attack people who have doubts about 21 inc's business. So sad. I'm done responding to you, troll.
Someone said they were thinking of putting mining chips in mobile phones. I cannot understand how draining their batteries faster will be an improvement. I heard mining viruses often alert people to their presence by draining Android phone's batteries in less than an hour. How can mining chips in phones be profitable without excessive power drain?
They would be using an asic chip not just the cpu and an app, we know how efficient these chips can be. I am sure for battery sensitive items they will be the the lowest watt usage chip they have. Jump to: