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Topic: 220v Help (Read 8313 times)

donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
February 15, 2012, 11:17:04 AM
#35
As far as breakers go I notice the prices vary a lot and there are tons to choose from, I will be looking to get a 30-amp double and a 30amp single. Anything special I should look for?

As indicated above you need a double pole for 240V, single pole is for 120V.
You need to get breaker that is compatible w/ your panel.  Try reading the inside cover of panel for manufacturer info.

GFCI breaker is safer if their is equipment malfuction and the PDU or ATX PSU becomes energized but they cost more.
Tandem is for putting to independent 120V circuits in one slot so don't get that.
vip
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
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February 15, 2012, 11:03:03 AM
#34
You need a 30 amp double, so that it has 2 poles.  Otherwise, you'll have a 30 amp 120.  You really want 30 amp 240.
newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
February 15, 2012, 10:54:34 AM
#33
So, locking CS8265C is not a type of US outlet, it says it uses a 50 amp outlets, plugs and I assume breaker?
Maybe use this: http://www.amazon.com/HUBBELL-CS8264C-Connector-250v-Female/dp/B002FYD0HY
its more expensive than the PDU haha

It is a California specific plug.  CA felt the NEMA L6 connector wasn't secure enough so they mandated their own connector.  I wish I was kidding.  Technically it could be used anywhere (the electricity doesn't care) however if it is up to your local code is another story. 

If it were me I wouldn't have a problem using the CS8265C. 

CS8265C plug -> CS8265C  outlet -> 6/2 (yeah that's 6 gauge wire, "real fun" to work with) -> 50A breaker.

Also with 50A personally I would want a GFCI.

I think you may find the cost of breakers, wiring, outlets, etc all increase when dealing with 50A simply because they aren't used that much.

So maybe I should just change it to a 30AMP, everything would be cheaper and easier, and I would still have about 10k watts which should be sufficient for a while. I think the whole issue was that I already had a 40amp spear breaker ready to go so I wanted to work around it but seems like more work than its worth..
As far as breakers go I notice the prices vary a lot and there are tons to choose from, I will be looking to get a 30-amp double and a 30amp single. Anything special I should look for?
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
February 15, 2012, 10:22:01 AM
#32
So, locking CS8265C is not a type of US outlet, it says it uses a 50 amp outlets, plugs and I assume breaker?
Maybe use this: http://www.amazon.com/HUBBELL-CS8264C-Connector-250v-Female/dp/B002FYD0HY
its more expensive than the PDU haha

It is a California specific plug.  CA felt the NEMA L6 connector wasn't secure enough so they mandated their own connector.  I wish I was kidding.  Technically it could be used anywhere (the electricity doesn't care) however if it is up to your local code is another story. 

If it were me I wouldn't have a problem using the CS8265C. 

CS8265C plug -> CS8265C  outlet -> 6/2 (yeah that's 6 gauge wire, "real fun" to work with) -> 50A breaker.

Also with 50A personally I would want a GFCI.

I think you may find the cost of breakers, wiring, outlets, etc all increase when dealing with 50A simply because they aren't used that much.
newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
February 15, 2012, 09:20:41 AM
#31
I suppose I need to look for the best price on the hard wired one, or could I just cut the plug off the plug one.
newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
February 15, 2012, 09:10:50 AM
#30
So, locking CS8265C is not a type of US outlet, it says it uses a 50 amp outlets, plugs and I assume breaker?
Maybe use this: http://www.amazon.com/HUBBELL-CS8264C-Connector-250v-Female/dp/B002FYD0HY
its more expensive than the PDU haha
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
February 14, 2012, 05:02:29 PM
#29
So finally found some info on your 40A PDU.  

http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11041_na/11041_na.HTML#Modular PDU Family Information

Looks like it is designed to be hardwired into the premises.  So you could use 40A breaker to hard wire this 40A PDU (provides) 4 C20 outlets (just google C20) which you could then expand to multiple PDUs with C19 cables as you likely will need more than 4 outlets.  

Never seen that before.  

That is why I liked the 40A PDU so much because for $70 it includes the main box and the expandable PDUs which have 4 plugs each. So on that I could run 34A x 220? 7480


Just watch out the site is very inconsistent.  It shows a model # which is the field terminated wiring (hardwired) but photo shows model w/ international wiring kit.  The description indicates it is core which wouldn't include the expanders but the photo would indicate otherwise.  The document page goes to a completely unrelated piece of equipment. 

Quote
Also I could use the single open slot and put in a 30A for 3600, also there is already a 15A with one outlet attached that I will be using as well, I suppose I could make it bigger if needed. The largest single breaker I have is 20A, do breaker boxes have limits, or should I be able to use 30A singles

There is no limit as long as the circuit can handle it.  You can't just remove a 15A breaker and put in a 20A breaker or 30A breaker.  Everything (cord, plug, outlet, in-wall wiring, breaker) must be rated for that amperage.  You entire distribution panel also has a limit.  Usually 100A but it can be more or less.  It should be listed on the master off breaker.  Increasing that is usually expensive as you need to verify the house mains can handle more and if they can't you are talking a very expensive new run by power company from nearest poor (or distribution transformer) to your house.
newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
February 14, 2012, 04:44:29 PM
#28
So finally found some info on your 40A PDU.  

http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11041_na/11041_na.HTML#Modular PDU Family Information

Looks like it is designed to be hardwired into the premises.  So you could use 40A breaker to hard wire this 40A PDU (provides) 4 C20 outlets (just google C20) which you could then expand to multiple PDUs with C19 cables as you likely will need more than 4 outlets.  

Never seen that before.  

That is why I liked the 40A PDU so much because for $70 it includes the main box and the expandable PDUs which have 4 plugs each. So on that I could run 34A x 220? 7480
Also I could use the single open slot and put in a 30A for 3600, also there is already a 15A with one outlet attached that I will be using as well, I suppose I could make it bigger if needed.
The largest single breaker I have is 20A, do breaker boxes have limits, or should I be able to use 30A singles

Now my only concern is surge protection, the only thing I could think of is a whole house protector.


donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
February 14, 2012, 03:16:26 PM
#27
So finally found some info on your 40A PDU.  

http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11041_na/11041_na.HTML#Modular PDU Family Information

Looks like it is designed to be hardwired into the premises.  So you could use 40A breaker to hard wire this 40A PDU (provides) 4 C20 outlets (just google C20) which you could then expand to multiple PDUs with C19 cables as you likely will need more than 4 outlets.  

Never seen that before.  
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
February 14, 2012, 03:02:22 PM
#26
Maybe Instead of trying to figure this out some strange way to do this, I just need to know the answer to this question.

If you had a breaker box with 3 open slots, 2 slots are side by side and you wanted to draw as much power possible and as efficiently as possible from those 3 circuits, how would you do this?

You only have 3 open slots (including two slots when you remove the 40A breaker)?


Your choices are:
* Use a 2 pole (2 slot) 30A breaker giving you 7.2KW (although any PDU will be downrated to 24A giving you 5.76KW).

* Find some 40A PDU (I don't think it exists) to use w/ your 40A circuit breaker and some as of yet unknown to me 40A outlet & plug.

* Replace the 40A breaker w/ 50A breaker and use some 50A PDU (be careful 40A & 50A is some serious current).

* Replace 2 adjacent single pole breakers with a "tandem" breaker (puts 2 120V circuits in a single slot) freeing up a second slot, to wire a 2nd 30A breaker.  You need to make sure your panel supports this.

* Drop in a 60A+ double pole breaker and wire to it a subpanel with breakers for all your mining gear.  In the subpanel wire up 2+ 30A double pole breakers.  Alternatively have electrician do this.

* Hire electrician to replace panel with larger panel.
newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
February 14, 2012, 02:50:31 PM
#25
Maybe Instead of trying to figure this out some strange way to do this, I just need to know the answer to this question.

If you had a breaker box with 3 open slots, 2 slots are side by side and you wanted to draw as much power possible and as efficiently as possible from those 3 circuits, how would you do this?

vip
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.
February 14, 2012, 01:24:19 PM
#24
In regards to the plugs, this seems to be the confusing thing at this point. So I could not use a 50A outlet with a 40A breaker?
I have no problem installing a 50A breaker, I would just need to look for a 50A PDU. But that HP unit looked great for the price and I already have a 40A breaker.

No.  The reason you match plugs/outlets to circuits is so that you don't hook up a 50A device to a 40A circuit.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
February 14, 2012, 01:23:32 PM
#23
In regards to the plugs, this seems to be the confusing thing at this point. So I could not use a 50A outlet with a 40A breaker?
I have no problem installing a 50A breaker, I would just need to look for a 50A PDU. But that HP unit looked great for the price and I already have a 40A breaker.

You "can" but it won't be up to code.  The most commonly misunderstood thing about the electrical code is .... IT ISN'T ABOUT YOU. Smiley

Often on DIY forums you will here "why can't I do xyz", or "but abc would be safe but the code doesn't allow it", "see if I have xyz and and abc then there is no way overcurrent could happen".  It doesn't matter.   You likely (hopefully) will remember all the crazy non-compliant things you may do but if you sell your house will the next person, or the next person, or some person 150 years from now?  If someone sees a 50 amp connector they are going to assume it is good for 50 amps.  If the circuit breaker locks under load and allows 50 amps to flow through a circuit designed for 40 amps well that is bad.  Sure you can think of all kinds of scenarios to avoid that but that doesn't make it code compliant.

If you see a generic 240V 50amp outlet you have never seen before what is the first thing you assume?  The code is designed to make that assumption valid.

Distribution Panel designed to handle all circuits -> 50 amp circuit breaker -> wiring designed to handle 50 amps -> 50 amp outlet -> 50 amp plug -> 50 amp device.

Quote
I was looking at the picture of the PDU and it has a plug, not hard wired, I dont understand if the outlets dont exist why they would do that...

I could be wrong but I don't think that "PDU" does what you think it does.
newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
February 14, 2012, 12:55:40 PM
#22
Thanks for the write up, I am very confident in the install now, I have installed a regular outlet before and I have looked in my breaker box so everything makes perfect sense, however depending on the cost I still may hire an electrician. The main breakers for my box are located outside the house so luckly I would not have the live wires coming into the box (correct?) However, I would have to run in and out of the house a lot to switch it on and off.

In regards to the plugs, this seems to be the confusing thing at this point. So I could not use a 50A outlet with a 40A breaker?
I have no problem installing a 50A breaker, I would just need to look for a 50A PDU. But that HP unit looked great for the price and I already have a 40A breaker.

I was looking at the picture of the PDU and it has a plug, not hard wired, I dont understand if the outlets dont exist why they would do that...
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
February 14, 2012, 09:41:38 AM
#21

I don't think that is a standalone PDU.  I believe (based on the docs) that it is installed INSIDE an HP datacenter sized UPS.  To provide 40A of distribution.  

However generally speaking... yes.  If you find a PDU which is rated for 40 amps it will require an outlet which is capable of 40 amps.  In the US there is no 40A 240V outlets.  Just 30A & 50A.  40A breakers are usually used for hardwired devices like Air conditioners.  Still the general rule applies whatever the max voltage of the device is, it should use that plug, and that plug should have a matching outlet, and that outlet should be wired to a matching circuit.  It is technically possible to wire a non "NEMA" PDU to a non "NEMA" outlet but it would be a violation of National Electrical Code.  Remember the purpose of the code isn't to just protect YOU but anyone else who may run into that circuit in the future.  Given houses can last 50, 60, 80 even 100 years that is a lot of people and they may be unfamiliar with whatever non-US outlet, configuration you install.

20A PDU -> 20A plug -> 30A outlet -> 20A circuit.
30A PDU -> 30A plug -> 30A outlet -> 30A circuit.
50A PDU -> 50A plug -> 50A outlet -> 50A circuit.



I noticed you said dryer outlet.  Dryers, and stoves are "Special". They use 4 wires (120V L1, 120V L2, neutral, and ground) because some parts of the dryer/stove (light the controls) run @ 120V for safety and the high current heating elements run at 240V.  Since they need both voltages they are special.  You don't want a dryer/stove plug.  Just a NEMA 6 or L6 of the right amperage.  For anything over 20A I would recommend a locking connector.


newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
February 14, 2012, 09:14:04 AM
#20
Its quite simple to wire a 30 amp circuit.  If you use the above pdus, they use a 3 plug/wire outlet.  You use a black/red/white wire setup.  You hook the black and red wires up to the 30 amp circuit break, each wire to its own screw.  The white wire goes to the neutral bar which is where you'll see all of the other white wires hooked up.  Turn off the main breaker, add each wire to its respective screw.  Make sure everything is clear.  Keeping one arm/hand at your side, turn on the breaker with your other hand.  Never use two hands because it forms a path for current to pass through the heart .  Using one hand is safer.

Yes I realize the process is very simple, and will probably end up doing it myself, I have a power line tester if it shows no power than what could possibly go wrong, I have no idea. One other question, I have a 40amp breaker, the power strip supports 26amp so I need to have two outlets, it plugs into " NEMA L6-30 plug" I assume like a dryer outlet. I don't see why not but, can I hookup two outlets to that 40amp breaker which would allow me to use two of the distribution units, or maybe I should just look for one that supports 40amps and do one plug


BZZT.  FAIL.  

No seriously respect electricity.  Wire according to the code.

I will compose some details and update the post.


I found this which supports 40amps, I assume it would be a better alternative on one plug:
http://www.dectrader.com/417582-001-New-HP-40A-high-voltage-power-distribution-unit-PDU-core-assembly-200VAC-240VAC-47-63Hz-40A-Rack-mount-box-with-field-wire-input-terminals-and-four-C19-F-connectors-for-power-strips-stick.html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=parts
newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
February 14, 2012, 09:13:07 AM
#19
I have a power line tester if it shows no power than what could possibly go wrong

Famous last words. Please be careful and treat every wire as if it's live, no matter what testers tell you.

I feel like if I knew what could really go wrong than I probably would hire someone to do it, so if the breaker goes off there is a possibility power could somehow reach through? If so I probably will hire an electrician.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
February 14, 2012, 09:00:58 AM
#18
Its quite simple to wire a 30 amp circuit.  If you use the above pdus, they use a 3 plug/wire outlet.  You use a black/red/white wire setup.  You hook the black and red wires up to the 30 amp circuit break, each wire to its own screw.  The white wire goes to the neutral bar which is where you'll see all of the other white wires hooked up.  Turn off the main breaker, add each wire to its respective screw.  Make sure everything is clear.  Keeping one arm/hand at your side, turn on the breaker with your other hand.  Never use two hands because it forms a path for current to pass through the heart .  Using one hand is safer.

Yes I realize the process is very simple, and will probably end up doing it myself, I have a power line tester if it shows no power than what could possibly go wrong, I have no idea. One other question, I have a 40amp breaker, the power strip supports 26amp so I need to have two outlets, it plugs into " NEMA L6-30 plug" I assume like a dryer outlet. I don't see why not but, can I hookup two outlets to that 40amp breaker which would allow me to use two of the distribution units, or maybe I should just look for one that supports 40amps and do one plug


BZZT.  FAIL.  

No seriously respect electricity.  Wire according to the code.

1) NEVER wire a circuit for more than the outlet is rated for.  

NEMA L6-30R.  
NEMA = Electrical Standard for US (and some other countries)
L = locking connector (smart when dealing w/ 30+ amps).
6 = category 6 which is 208V to 240V split phase, 3 wire
30 = 30 amps MAX LOAD
R = receptacle (outlet).  The plug would be NEMA L6-30P

So this outlet has been tested to safely handle 30 amps.  31 amps?  Unknown.  The purpose of a circuit breaker is to prevent overcurrent.   30 amps = max safe current  & 40 amps = breaker shutoff.

If you wire that and you have an overcurrent event which ignites wiring behind the wall and burns your house down there is a good chance your insurance company will nullify the claim on grounds the damages were caused by gross negligence.

30 amp outlet = 30 amp circuit.  Period.  So you will need to remove the 40 amp breaker and install a new 2 pole 30 amp breakers.  If you want two outlets you will need 2 identical breakers (and 4 "spots" in the panel).  Seems like too much work?  Stop and get an electrician.

2) Remove the front panel and take a look.  At the top you will see the three main wires coming from the power company.  They are always hot even when main breaker is off.  Touch them and hopefully your significant other has a good life insurance policy which pays double for accidental death.  You won't be working anywhere near them but a healthy respect of life ending current is always a good thing.  To install the breaker you will need to cut main power off but you can restore main power once the breaker is installed.  Once breaker is installed you can just cut that breaker to work on wiring "downstream".  ALWAYS test circuits and double check breakers before working on wires.  Easy to "think" a breaker is off and grab a live wire.  Get something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Klein-NCVT-1-Contact-Voltage-Tester/dp/B001UAHZAM/ref=sr_1_4?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1329231406&sr=1-4

It lets you test circuits without having to touch potentially live wires.  Always test the circuit tester on a live circuit.  If it seems I am being anal about this it only take one wrong touch.

3) You will need 10 guage wire.  It is called Romex 10-2.  2 conductors + ground.  There will be a white wire, black wire, and naked ground wire.  Wiring is pretty simple but you need to use electrical tape to make the white wire black wherever it is exposed.   This is a safety thing so you don't confuse and thus KILL the next person doing work.  Remember the code doesn't just protect you, it protects any potential victims who may come across your work far into the future.  White = neutral but we won't be using it as a neutral so we mark it black to make the intent clear.  

4) In the US 240V is split phase.  You get 240V from 2 120V legs that are out of phase. A 120V circuit taps 1 120V leg with neutral (white wire).  To get 240V we tap both 120V legs.  AC voltage is never "negative" but sometimes it helps to think of voltage as negative.  We have a +120V AC leg and  a - 120V AC leg thus across both legs we get (120V - -120V) = 240V.  Technically as I said this is incorrect as AC voltage doesn't have a sign BUT it helps to visualize how we are getting 240V from two 120V legs.  The wires at the top of circuit panel are 120V (leg1), neutral, 120V leg2.  When you want 240V you tap across both legs.  When you want 120V you tap between 1 leg (either one) and the neutral.

5) So you won't use a neutral connection, we will use two live wires and one ground.   Take a look at the breaker before you put it into the circuit breaker panel.  It has two connectors which tighten down w/ screws.  1 wire goes in each (120V leg1 , 120V leg2 = 240V across both legs).  The third conductor in the wire is the ground.  It is usually "naked".  If you look inside the panel you will see a grounding bar with all the other ground wires.  It should have an open spot with a screw.  If it doesn't don't jury rig some shit.  Get an electrician to install a larger grounding bar (or larger panel, or sub panel).

5) SHUT OFF MAIN BREAKER.  Everything in the house should shutoff. Install the breaker into the panel.  It "should" snap solidly into place.  Each panel is different so I can't help here.  Make sure you get a breaker designed for YOUR panel.  Just because it fits doesn't mean it should fit.  Once solidly in place, grab a circuit tester or multi meter.  Flip the main breaker on.  Flip the 30A breaker on.  When touching the two connection points on the 30A breaker it should read ~240V.  SHUT 30A BREAKER OFF.  Some people don't like to work w/ main panel breaker on (not to be confused w/ the individual circuit breaker) but honestly working in the dark is going to have more risk than having main panel on.  Remember the wires at the top of the panel are always energized.  When main panel is on and individual circuit is off anything "upstream" of the breaker is live.

6) Verify the circuit is cold. Run the wire into the panel via a knockout.  If you need to punch out a new knockout be sure to use either a rubber grommet or protect the edges with electrical tape.  Strip about 3 feet of the outer jacket (all the wire outside the panel should be jacketed, all the jacket should be removed for wire inside the panel).  Bend the wires to give them a nice clean run from a knockout in the panel box to their connecting points (two to breaker, ground to the grounding bar).  Try to run them neatly, follow the "pattern" of the other wires.  You may need to remove this or other circuits in the future and you don't want a rats nets of overlapping wires.  Cut each wire to length (don't shove miles of extra wire in the box).  Make sure to cover white wire in black electrical tape to designate it as a hot 120V wire.  The two insulated wires go to the single breaker (has two screw down connection points).  Connect the naked ground wire to the grounding bar. Once you have it screwed down tightly give it a slight tug.  It shouldn't move at all.

7) Verify the circuit is cold. Run the wire to where the box will be.  If in wall tack it down every 3 feet with wire tacks (use one designed for proper cable size)  Make sure you don't accidentally pierce the connector.  If you don't remove it an start again.    If you are running wire outside the walls you will need to use a conduit, raceway, or shielded cable.  Code varies by area.  Make sure the cable is properly supported. Where the outlet box will be installed cut the wire to length.  Give yourself an extra 2 feet or so for final routing.  

Cool Verify the circuit is cold.  Install electrical box, run wire into box, clamp down according to manufacturer requirements on the box.  Double check breaker is off and cut the conductor down to about 4" beyond the box.  Strip the jacket back to separate the 3 wires (all jacket inside box should be removed, all wire outside the box should remain jacketed).  Strip the ends of the wires.  Now safely separate the 3 wires, and position them so they won't touch.  Turn breaker on.  Using circuit tester or multimeter check white to ground (it should be 120V), black to ground (should be 120V), white to black (should be 240V).  Starting to get the concept of 240V split phase.  Cutoff breaker.  Retest circuit is dead.

9)  Verify the circuit is cold.  Wrap white conductor in black tape (safety to designate it is a live conductor).  Screw down the 3 conductors.  Ground goes to the screw marked G.  If there is no marking check instructions.  The other two conductors go to the other 2 screws (order doesn't matter).  

10) Turn breaker on.  Test outlet using circuit tester or multimeter.  The ground slot to either live slot should be ~120V.  One live slot to the other live slot should be ~240V.  


Everything in the post should be considered educational only.   Do not rely on this post only.  Always consult the National Electical Code ("the code") NFPA 70 (or other definitive source for non US wiring) before performing any electrical work. Electricity can kill or cause catastrophic property damages.  Improper installation can open you liability losses and void your home owner's insurance.  If you are unsure of your abilities hire a qualified electrician.  The author is not responsible for any damages that may result from errors or omissions in this eductional post.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1128
February 14, 2012, 08:46:12 AM
#17
I have a power line tester if it shows no power than what could possibly go wrong

Famous last words. Please be careful and treat every wire as if it's live, no matter what testers tell you.
newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
February 14, 2012, 08:38:15 AM
#16
Its quite simple to wire a 30 amp circuit.  If you use the above pdus, they use a 3 plug/wire outlet.  You use a black/red/white wire setup.  You hook the black and red wires up to the 30 amp circuit break, each wire to its own screw.  The white wire goes to the neutral bar which is where you'll see all of the other white wires hooked up.  Turn off the main breaker, add each wire to its respective screw.  Make sure everything is clear.  Keeping one arm/hand at your side, turn on the breaker with your other hand.  Never use two hands because it forms a path for current to pass through the heart .  Using one hand is safer.

Yes I realize the process is very simple, and will probably end up doing it myself, I have a power line tester if it shows no power than what could possibly go wrong, I have no idea. One other question, I have a 40amp breaker, the power strip supports 26amp so I need to have two outlets, it plugs into " NEMA L6-30 plug" I assume like a dryer outlet. I don't see why not but, can I hookup two outlets to that 40amp breaker which would allow me to use two of the distribution units, or maybe I should just look for one that supports 40amps and do one plug
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