[250GH/s] BitClockers.com Merged/No Invalids/Pure PPS/DDoS-Resistant/Live Stats - page 5.

organofcorti

donator

Activity: 2058

Merit: 1007

Poor impulse control.

Quote from: organofcorti on February 20, 2012, 08:28:22 PM

You've been outed as faking your stats, round length in particular, and I know for certain you're underpaying miners on short rounds. It's also possible you're underpaying your miners generally, but I haven't finished the analysis yet.

How do you respond?

Quote from: V2-V3 on February 21, 2012, 11:08:26 PM

BitClockers does not support Pool Hopping

BitClockers Discussion: http://bitclockers.com/forums/index.php?topic=484.0

Quote

Bitclockers uses available methods to reduce the negative effects of pool hopping on non hoppers.

We delay live share statistics to entice hoppers to mine longer. .

Countermeasures only effect hoppers.
Countermeasures May keep poorly configured hopping clients from hopping earlier

...

Your link goes on to mention:

Quote

Payouts remain Proportional

Alternative payout methods have been in discussion and hopping countermeasures have been implemented for the mean time.

Miners are encouraged to vote on their preferred rewards system, all suggestions welcome.

So you still haven't explained why your round stats are abnormal. So let me put it to your miners:

Guys, ever noticed that you don't get tiny short rounds here? on other pools you see them. Here, the smallest length round you've seen in over 300 rounds is 0.3*D. This is so unlikely that I can't really explain just how unlikely it is. Even less likely than Bitclockers coming clean. About 26% of your blocks should be less than 0.3*D.

The worst interpretation is that they've been keeping a bunch of blocks for themselves. For example, if the pool operators kept all blocks under 10^-4*D they'd have made an extra 100btc for themselves and you'd have no idea.

I'd stop mining here if I were you.

macboy80

member

Activity: 102

Merit: 10

Quote from: V2-V3 on February 21, 2012, 11:08:26 PM

BitClockers does not support Pool Hopping

BitClockers Discussion: http://bitclockers.com/forums/index.php?topic=474.0

You refer to a thread on your forum posted 2 weeks ago... What say you as to the time leading up to that thread?

If you do not support pool hopping, please consider a hop-proof method. Either you pay prop or you don't. It's real simple.

Starlightbreaker

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1006

regular miners too.

i'm telling you, full-time miners here & other prop pool will have different output, with the same hashing power. Grin

if not, why are they suddenly removed time & date on the stats, once organofcorti gives the calculation?

RoloTonyBrownTown

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Hoppers aside, sounds like they fucked up (or perhaps it was intentional) and have been messing with "normal" miners payouts as well.

abracadabra

hero member

Activity: 956

Merit: 1001

Quote from: backburn on February 22, 2012, 12:00:41 AM

If you think its OK to hop pools, than its OK for the pool to hop hoppers.

Backburn,

The difference is that it's pretty obvious when hoppers are hopping a pool. But in this case, it was not readily obvious that the pool was not straightforward with the stats (or as you say, "the pool hopping hoppers"). You guys pretty much set a trap and enticed hoppers to join and hop the pool. The more ethical way to handle the situation, at least in my humble opinion, would have been to say, "We don't want hoppers and we are delaying/faking/altering stats to prevent/distract/circumvent hopping software from hopping us"

backburn

member

Activity: 111

Merit: 10

★Trash&Burn [TBC/TXB]★

If you think its OK to hop pools, than its OK for the pool to hop hoppers.

Eveofwar

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

Quote from: V2-V3 on February 21, 2012, 11:08:26 PM

Quote from: macboy80 on February 21, 2012, 10:35:03 PM

WOW!

Count me as scammed. ~~This is a surprising development.~~ I would ask pool ops to please be forthcoming about how their "protections" have affected all of our earnings. Perhaps they can enlist organofcorti if they need help with math.

Thanks to all who endeavor to keep us informed!

BitClockers does not support Pool Hopping

BitClockers Discussion: http://bitclockers.com/forums/index.php?topic=474.0

Quote

Bitclockers uses available methods to reduce the negative effects of pool hopping on non hoppers.

We delay live share statistics to entice hoppers to mine longer. .

Countermeasures only effect hoppers.
Countermeasures May keep poorly configured hopping clients from hopping earlier

...

But what about ?

Quote from: backburn on May 27, 2011, 12:37:00 AM

Both easy and fair, we offer proportional payment. payout = user_shares / total_block_shares * 49.5

V2-V3

full member

Activity: 227

Merit: 100

Quote from: macboy80 on February 21, 2012, 10:35:03 PM

WOW!

Count me as scammed. ~~This is a surprising development.~~ I would ask pool ops to please be forthcoming about how their "protections" have affected all of our earnings. Perhaps they can enlist organofcorti if they need help with math.

Thanks to all who endeavor to keep us informed!

BitClockers does not support Pool Hopping

BitClockers Discussion: http://bitclockers.com/forums/index.php?topic=484.0

Quote

Bitclockers uses available methods to reduce the negative effects of pool hopping on non hoppers.

We delay live share statistics to entice hoppers to mine longer. .

Countermeasures only effect hoppers.
Countermeasures May keep poorly configured hopping clients from hopping earlier

...

joulesbeef

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

moOo

proves you cant trust even established pools and btc businesses, you got to do the research or leave yourself open to getting screwed.

macboy80

member

Activity: 102

Merit: 10

WOW!

Count me as scammed. ~~This is a surprising development.~~ I would ask pool ops to please be forthcoming about how their "protections" have affected all of our earnings. Perhaps they can enlist organofcorti if they need help with math.

Thanks to all who endeavor to keep us informed!

V2-V3

full member

Activity: 227

Merit: 100

Quote from: stoppots on February 21, 2012, 04:58:07 PM

Anyone else having problems logging in with firefox? Works fine for me on chrome but on firefox every time I hit "sign in" the page just acts like you hit refresh?

Fire Fox login to dashboard working here, try clearing your cookies and browser cache.

Starlightbreaker

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1006

works fine for me.

stoppots

sr. member

Activity: 271

Merit: 250

Anyone else having problems logging in with firefox? Works fine for me on chrome but on firefox every time I hit "sign in" the page just acts like you hit refresh?

stoppots

sr. member

Activity: 271

Merit: 250

Quote from: abracadabra on February 20, 2012, 07:50:36 PM

I have come to the conclusion that any pool that does not provide a blockexplorer link to each and every block found by the pool is most likely doing something underhanded.

I would even go a step further and say pools not being transperent with their miners, has something to hide. Still can't even get past the fact that slush's pool does not even offer its miners stats on how many shares per block they mined.

I mean seriously why not just call yourself Hushpool

Starlightbreaker

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1006

uhhhhh...

someone suddenly changed their stats page, i can no longer see date & time on my block/round stats.

i'm pretty sure the difference is around 20-30%. i remember when i boosted my worker like a moron with gpumax, i only made ~0.5, where on bclc, got around 0.8-0.9 a round.

organofcorti

donator

Activity: 2058

Merit: 1007

Poor impulse control.

It's possible you're seeing artefacts from having to either generate or transform round lengths. Until we find out more from them, I doubt we'll know for sure. I hope they do tell us more about what they're doing soon, since one of the methods they have used to generate the published round lengths would mean that all miners - even fulltime miners - are being underpaid by about 24%.

abracadabra

hero member

Activity: 956

Merit: 1001

Oh.. one more thing..

at about 250GH it's about 3 hours to hit 43.5
bitclockers at the start of a block would regularly hit 750GH+

looking at the graph, the "anti-hopper technology" looks like it was hiding some shares from the entire pool (all miners, not just hoppers) for the first 4 to 4.5 hours.
at 750GH, 43.5 would be hit in about an hour or so.

slope lines are about right.. maybe a bit on the steep side...

abracadabra

hero member

Activity: 956

Merit: 1001

I'll just leave these here.

The bitclockers info is from the bitclockers json page.

You can draw whatever conclusions you wish from the graphs.

The cyclic swing shown on in the early portion of the block is interesting to note.
I surmise that the slope of the true share count slope is approximated by the green lines I have drawn in the 2nd graph.

organofcorti

donator

Activity: 2058

Merit: 1007

Poor impulse control.

Quote from: V2-V3 on February 20, 2012, 05:39:06 PM

Quote from: organofcorti on February 19, 2012, 09:23:48 AM

Quote from: V2-V3 on February 16, 2012, 12:58:31 AM

Pool Update:
Statistics page updated, now contain more stuffs!

And it's all fake. Why bother putting up stats when they have only a tenuous relation to reality?

Excuse me sir, i can see that you are a strong advocate of pool hopping. Bitclockers.com does not support pool hopping and there are several technologies in place to protect honest users.

Bitclockers delays share count statistics just like deepbit and other major pools.

Firstly, I am not a 'strong advocate of pool hopping'. I do not care if people pool hop or not. I do however provide pool hoppers with information they need to hop pools that are too lazy to implement hopper proof technologies, mostly because the analyses are fun.

Secondly, I didn't mention delaying stats, I said you're faking your stats. Since abracadabra has spoken for you I'm going to assume that you're not being deliberately obtuse and just that you haven't read the following yet:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.757368
http://hoppersden.info/entries/28-How-to-hop-10-Bitclockers.com-amp-spurious-round-lengths-part-1
http://hoppersden.info/entries/29-How-to-hop-11-Bitclockers.com-amp-spurious-round-lengths-part-2
http://hoppersden.info/entries/30-How-to-hop-12-Bitclockers.com-amp-spurious-round-lengths-part-3

You've been outed as faking your stats, round length in particular, and I know for certain you're underpaying miners on short rounds. It's also possible you're underpaying your miners generally, but I haven't finished the analysis yet.

How do you respond?

Starlightbreaker

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1006

ok, so...

Quote from: organofcorti on February 20, 2012, 06:41:53 AM

Pool hopping proportional pools is simple. It's when there are known or unknown anti-hopping protections that you'll earned less than the expected value of a share.

Even then, at least with all of the hop resistant rather than hop proof scoring systems, as long as you're there at the start you'll earn more than PPS payout. I haven't come across a proportional modification that prevented that entirely.

The difficulty in pool hopping is optimising. This means finding the correct %D to leave the pool for a particular payout method, making sure your software doesn't cause too many stales or miss round starts, having a system that allows the software to compare the expected value of a share at a particular pool at a particular %D, and probably lots more.

As far as manipulating hoppers to increase hashrate, I'd guess that is why they've used their score method the way they have - without actually owning up. That way they keep their hopper boost but lose less coinage from fulltime miners to the pool hoppers.

Really, it's quite a nice idea - a score system that doesn't need to keep track of anything other than users shares. But Slush's score system still does better because the expected value of a share at the end of a long round is still near 1.0. whereas at Bitclockers.com the expected value of a share drops more rapidly even than a proportional pool. And of course, any of the DGM solutions (I include PPLNS in that) beats the Bitclockers.com system hands down since they're not only provably hopper proof, they're can also be modified - to reduce miners variance for example. And you don't have to lie about your stats.

I made a very conservative estimate of how much they've underpaid pool hoppers over the last 200 rounds, and that's about 2000btc.

welp...there goes my hopping pool.

....wait, no, doesn't matter anyways. i still get pretty decent chunk from them, even though it's off by ~30% at times.

Topic: [250GH/s] BitClockers.com Merged/No Invalids/Pure PPS/DDoS-Resistant/Live Stats - page 5. (Read 75789 times)