MISERICORDAE PROJECT you have some good ideas, there are many algorithms that have dynamic elements to facilitate ASIC resistance, it can be an ongoing low intensity competition between ASIC producers and developers to keep centralization and monopolies in check and make it prohibitively costly for ASIC producers to dominate mining actvity.
As for bbcreporter, she is a clueless laywoman who doesn't even understand you are talking about altcoin mining and dagger hashimoto algo in particular, so feel free to ignore her prepubescent tantrums...
Topic: 51% attack on Zencash and Bitcoin Gold, punishing the resistance? (Read 374 times)
June 12, 2018, 02:41:05 PM
Actually these coins suffered 51% attack within close period of time: bitcoin gold, monacoin, zencash, and verge (at least twice). And most recently, Litecash suffered same attack https://www.ccn.com/litecoin-cash-latest-small-cap-altcoin-to-suffer-51-percent-attack/.
June 12, 2018, 05:43:51 AM
So, are we supposing Bitmain has full control over every hardware it sells? ...
From hardware technology point of view, any 'rogue' micro or nano controller component can be embedded during Foundry and Processing of a hardware if a manufacturer chose to. When this is not the case, access to factory embedded codes (firmware) for control operations may be gained, modified and used by a rogue staff of a company or by the company itself. An authority can force a manufacturer to cooperate with installation of such embedded controller codes (firmware). So, the question of whether we are supposing Bitmain has full control over every hardware it sells can only be answered by 'inspectors' that can be assigned to every batch of Bitmain's manufacturing process. Read more here about already discovered access and control backdoor in Bitmain's mining products https://www.antbleed.com, https://www.ccn.com/jihan-wu-confirms-claims-of-a-backdoor-in-bitmain-apologizes-says-its-a-bug/, https://www.coindesk.com/antbleed-bitcoins-newest-new-controversy-explained/, etc.
Another more probable case can be bitcoin pools unite to do it without the consent of the miners. The large Chinese pools combined do make 51%.
True. Pools can just do it without consent of miners.
But again why would they kill their golden hen?
The taxes that you pay on your business, house, healthcare, etc go to the government, right? We can say as well that the taxes are a golden hen, right? But why are there tons of scandals from the people elected to use the taxes for all our interests? Why are they killing the golden hen?
June 12, 2018, 05:02:11 AM
Who will develop it him or you?
It is always about WE, not about 'me, you or him'. Of course, nothing is easy. You wake up in the morning and you walk. It is so easy you think but some people wake up and can not walk, and some people can not even wake up. Yet under the different conditions of difficulty, people learn to make efforts! Therefore, the proposal by @aliashraf is on the table for interested parties to discuss towards a development. If the proposal match your interest, in any way no matter how little, do not be hesitant to make a contribution towards a development.
FYI, about three months ago there was an interaction between Bitmain and Misericordae associate on this kind of discussion. Bitmain's response was surprisingly quite open and quite positive. Addressing this kind of serious issues highlighted here in a balanced way is interesting to any responsible party. That's why we are of the view that DIALOGUE can be given chance. Now, @aliashraf' s proposal, particularly no.1 and no. 3 as said in the last post are quite fitting to Misericordae project interest. Which of the three are fitting to your interest?
Would that proposal be accepted by bitcoin's developers and the community?
Who actually are the Bitcoin developers and community? Your contribution to the proposal towards resolving the issues is more IMPORTANT than the fear of whether Bitcoin developers and community will accept the proposal. 
June 11, 2018, 02:34:41 PM
Now this guy is a fan of permissionless systems! Congrats dude, you are making progress
So are you, it seems. You've progressed to the Altcoins forum where your idea can reach its target audience. Congrats!
June 10, 2018, 08:44:56 PM
So, are we supposing Bitmain has full control over every hardware it sells? I don't think that would be the case.
Another more probable case can be bitcoin pools unite to do it without the consent of the miners. The large Chinese pools combined do make 51%.
But again why would they kill their golden hen?
Another more probable case can be bitcoin pools unite to do it without the consent of the miners. The large Chinese pools combined do make 51%.
But again why would they kill their golden hen?
June 10, 2018, 08:38:42 PM
Who will develop it him or you? Would that proposal be accepted by bitcoin's developers and the community? You all talk like it was very easy or you think that are so smart. But in truth you cannot look more stupid than you are now.
June 09, 2018, 09:55:26 PM
...but there is nothing stopping a hardware manufacturer from developing ASICs on any proof of work algorithm.
@ bbc.reporter This is an important and valid statement of fact. Bitmain's revenue has skyrocketed over the last couple of years after they started shipping out ASICs - very lucrative and newly found BILLIONS of Dollars in Revenue. Your point brings us back to @Aliashraf's proposal to discuss way forward in engaging Bitmain to be a 'good player' in the blockchain ecosystem.
@Aliashraf proposed the following:
Quote
1- Specific enhancements can be made to bitcoin mining protocol that discourage pool operations and help decentralized mining. I call it de-pool project.
Running such a fork would prevent Bitmain from using its Antpool leverage in the first place and brings back mining power to the actual ASIC owners.
The technical challenges involved are not that hard and I have some proposals for it in my turn.
2- A Dag based algorithm can be implemented with very acceptable resistance against ASIC attacks, despite what venal cryptographers and writers say. I call it de-ASIC project.
An enhanced version of Dagger Hashimoto can resist ASIC attempts very well. Bitmain's E3 is a misleading propaganda announcement, a joke and not a true ASIC crack.
3- A smart solution can be devised to let a smooth migration from ASIC to gpu mining within few epochs that can take place in like 2 years. It is ASIC Break project.
This project is based on a multi-algorithm, multi difficulty approach and smoothly will retire ASICs in a 2-3 year period.
Running such a fork would prevent Bitmain from using its Antpool leverage in the first place and brings back mining power to the actual ASIC owners.
The technical challenges involved are not that hard and I have some proposals for it in my turn.
2- A Dag based algorithm can be implemented with very acceptable resistance against ASIC attacks, despite what venal cryptographers and writers say. I call it de-ASIC project.
An enhanced version of Dagger Hashimoto can resist ASIC attempts very well. Bitmain's E3 is a misleading propaganda announcement, a joke and not a true ASIC crack.
3- A smart solution can be devised to let a smooth migration from ASIC to gpu mining within few epochs that can take place in like 2 years. It is ASIC Break project.
This project is based on a multi-algorithm, multi difficulty approach and smoothly will retire ASICs in a 2-3 year period.
From MISERICORDAE's perspective, proposal number 1 and 3 are in alignment with its ongoing project albeit the fact that Misericordae prefers to create a balance between ASICs and other computing devices like FPGA, GPU & CPU through multi nonlinear difficulty for multiple algorithms and a protocol for excess hashrate redistribution. For proposal number 2, Misericordae is neutral to algorithms developed specifically to be resistant against ASICs. A billion dollar revenue enterprise like Bitmain can invest a few millions to overt such an ASIC-resistant algorithm if it accessed a high market revenue from it.
Misericordae proposes engagement and dialogue between blockchain developers community and ASIC manufacturers like Bitmain. A strong message was sent to Bitmain through the forking of Monero cryptonight that hit at the overall potential revenue, and now there seems to be a reprisal (a message response) through the attack on zencash and bitgold that nurtured interests to fork, which will be another hit at manufacturer's revenue. Tit-for-tat is unhealthy for the young ecosystem. Can there be dialogue?
@bbc.reporter & @Vispilio, @forum members, which of the @alishraf's proposal do you favor ? Is there even a possibility for dialogue between blockchain developers and ASIC manufacturers?
June 09, 2018, 06:39:10 AM
@Vispilio. Because Bitmain's self interests and its game theory mechanics do matter for bitcoin itself, the other miners and the community.
Your tirade against ASIC is what does not matter. You can say everything you want but there is nothing stopping a hardware manufacturer from developing ASICs on any proof of work algorithm.
Your tirade against ASIC is what does not matter. You can say everything you want but there is nothing stopping a hardware manufacturer from developing ASICs on any proof of work algorithm.
June 08, 2018, 12:42:38 AM
The discussion is not about Bitmain's best interests to keep crypto mining functioning in an orderly fashion or its mutually profitable competition with other miners;
Yes game theory.
well as far as brick walls go, at least you are cute
, if that picture of you is genuine. June 07, 2018, 09:56:47 PM
The question now would be will the ASIC miners attack Zcash?. The answer would clearly be No because it would make their ASICs worthless.
I was not talking about any ideology. I was making an opinion on what we are witnessing today.
@MISERICORDAE PROJECT. I am not an ASIC sympathizer. Are you crazy?
You were not specifically referred to as a Bitmain's ASIC sympathizer, and now it's really good that you are helping with clarity on your viewpoint.
Also, I reckon game theory still applies because there are multiple active miners, not only one. Although you are correct that Bitmain is the main player in producing ASICs, they are not the only one. Miners can go to another manufacturer if Bitmain acts against the miners best interests.
It will be good if you can provide a volume estimate of ASICs in circulation today, with the % percentage from Bitmain compared to other ASIC manufacturers, and in relationship to the most notable Bitcoin SHA256...This will help in better understanding of who is in control, and how many players are actually in the game.
Do you have an estimate of how many Miners that went to another manufacturer when it was discovered that Bitmain has created a 'backdoor' for remote operations in S9 ASIC miners without knowledge of the end-users? What was the volume of Bitmain's sales after the problem was highlighted by the developers community? You can probably shed more light on how you arrived at the conclusion that "Miners can go to another manufacturer if Bitmain acts against the miners best interests." Why are miners still stuck with Bitmain till now?
The statistics today shows topmost mining pools, Antpool (ca. 15 %), BTC.com (ca. 30%) and ViaBTC (ca. 10%), including other minority pools with 5-7%, all have direct and/or indirect ties to the same ASIC manufacturer Bitmain. Add up the total percentages.
How do we really define the game theory between multiple end-user miners, manufacturer of their mining machines and the controller of the pools through which they mine?
June 07, 2018, 07:27:05 PM
The discussion is not about Bitmain's best interests to keep crypto mining functioning in an orderly fashion or its mutually profitable competition with other miners;
Yes game theory.
June 07, 2018, 02:24:04 AM
The War is getting dirtier ever and ever. While yellow crypto media and venal writers here and there are announcing it over already, Bitmain is busy punishing communities who dare to resist.
After the shameful event of announcing z9 as Bitmain's latest ASIC crack against a PoW algorithm, two equihash based coins that happened to be the ones who officially had announced their intention to resist the ASIC crack by managing for a hard fork, Bitcoin Gold and Zencash, experienced a 50%+1 attack.
It is how it works in the 'real world' when it comes to money, we all know, but there is something else that we know too: Cryptocurrency is about changing this reality instead of giving it a hug.
I'm sure, devs in both camps will do what they should, and Bitmain's evil strategy will fail but here I'm not talking about alternate currencies, instead, I'm willing to discuss Bitcoin situation, being seized by a company like Bitmain, praying for its majesty to play fair, desperately.
This company is dreaming of taking over the whole crypto ecosystem and I think it should be even kicked out of Bitcoin.
Very opposite agendas in a ridiculous distribution of power and resources, they have everything and I'm on my own, I see but I have something they can't even dream of: a plan!
Firstly, the depth of emptiness of Bitmain's strategy should be understood. Taking over a decentralized system is an impossible mission. This company is deemed to failure the question is whether it goes down alone or pulls Bitcoin down with itself.
My plan:
I think eliminating ASICs is a very urgent necessity and it is absolutely feasible, both techically and socioeconomically. For coins that has not been overtaken by Bitmain (yet) it is more convenient, obviously, but in the case of infected ecosystems like Bitcoin, for which my plan is, it gets a bit more complicated. I'm thinking of 3 major projects:
1- Specific enhancements can be made to bitcoin mining protocol that discourage pool operations and help decentralized mining. I call it de-pool project.
Running such a fork would prevent Bitmain from using its Antpool leverage in the first place and brings back mining power to the actual ASIC owners.
The technical challenges involved are not that hard and I have some proposals for it in my turn.
2- A Dag based algorithm can be implemented with very acceptable resistance against ASIC attacks, despite what venal cryptographers and writers say. I call it de-ASIC project.
An enhanced version of Dagger Hashimoto can resist ASIC attempts very well. Bitmain's E3 is a misleading propaganda announcement, a joke and not a true ASIC crack.
2- A smart solution can be devised to let a smooth migration from ASIC to gpu mining within few epochs that can take place in like 2 years. It is ASIC Break project.
This project is based on a multi-algorithm, multi difficulty approach and smoothly will retire ASICs in a 2-3 year period.
Each of the projects needs a seperate thread to discuss but the whole picture deserves one as well.
You are welcome to discuss the feasibility of each project and share your ideas, but please, keep your 'ASIC is not that bad' shit out of this topic. Here I'm inviting people committed to ASIC resistance, not the ones who (being payed or not) write in favor of the enemy. Of course you can write what you want but it will be my right to call you a venal writer. This is how I think, "anybody who writes in favor of Bitmain, is payed by Bitmain" and you know what? I don't feel bad being such an enthusiast this one time.
After the shameful event of announcing z9 as Bitmain's latest ASIC crack against a PoW algorithm, two equihash based coins that happened to be the ones who officially had announced their intention to resist the ASIC crack by managing for a hard fork, Bitcoin Gold and Zencash, experienced a 50%+1 attack.
It is how it works in the 'real world' when it comes to money, we all know, but there is something else that we know too: Cryptocurrency is about changing this reality instead of giving it a hug.
I'm sure, devs in both camps will do what they should, and Bitmain's evil strategy will fail but here I'm not talking about alternate currencies, instead, I'm willing to discuss Bitcoin situation, being seized by a company like Bitmain, praying for its majesty to play fair, desperately.
This company is dreaming of taking over the whole crypto ecosystem and I think it should be even kicked out of Bitcoin.
Very opposite agendas in a ridiculous distribution of power and resources, they have everything and I'm on my own, I see but I have something they can't even dream of: a plan!
Firstly, the depth of emptiness of Bitmain's strategy should be understood. Taking over a decentralized system is an impossible mission. This company is deemed to failure the question is whether it goes down alone or pulls Bitcoin down with itself.
My plan:
I think eliminating ASICs is a very urgent necessity and it is absolutely feasible, both techically and socioeconomically. For coins that has not been overtaken by Bitmain (yet) it is more convenient, obviously, but in the case of infected ecosystems like Bitcoin, for which my plan is, it gets a bit more complicated. I'm thinking of 3 major projects:
1- Specific enhancements can be made to bitcoin mining protocol that discourage pool operations and help decentralized mining. I call it de-pool project.
Running such a fork would prevent Bitmain from using its Antpool leverage in the first place and brings back mining power to the actual ASIC owners.
The technical challenges involved are not that hard and I have some proposals for it in my turn.
2- A Dag based algorithm can be implemented with very acceptable resistance against ASIC attacks, despite what venal cryptographers and writers say. I call it de-ASIC project.
An enhanced version of Dagger Hashimoto can resist ASIC attempts very well. Bitmain's E3 is a misleading propaganda announcement, a joke and not a true ASIC crack.
2- A smart solution can be devised to let a smooth migration from ASIC to gpu mining within few epochs that can take place in like 2 years. It is ASIC Break project.
This project is based on a multi-algorithm, multi difficulty approach and smoothly will retire ASICs in a 2-3 year period.
Each of the projects needs a seperate thread to discuss but the whole picture deserves one as well.
You are welcome to discuss the feasibility of each project and share your ideas, but please, keep your 'ASIC is not that bad' shit out of this topic. Here I'm inviting people committed to ASIC resistance, not the ones who (being payed or not) write in favor of the enemy. Of course you can write what you want but it will be my right to call you a venal writer. This is how I think, "anybody who writes in favor of Bitmain, is payed by Bitmain" and you know what? I don't feel bad being such an enthusiast this one time.
that's just sad, all cryptos should be DPOS
June 07, 2018, 02:20:48 AM
The discussion is not about Bitmain's best interests to keep crypto mining functioning in an orderly fashion or its mutually profitable competition with other miners;
that's why a crude analogy to Game Theory falls short here. To prevent disgruntled external actors like states and banks, namely the controllers of fiat power in the
world from disrupting the Crypto Revolution, mining activities and transactions have to remain decentralized and dynamic, making them Anti Fragile against state
legislation or even military intervention...
that's why a crude analogy to Game Theory falls short here. To prevent disgruntled external actors like states and banks, namely the controllers of fiat power in the
world from disrupting the Crypto Revolution, mining activities and transactions have to remain decentralized and dynamic, making them Anti Fragile against state
legislation or even military intervention...
June 06, 2018, 08:03:02 PM
@aliashraf. That is not what I said. I never said ASICs are important. What I was saying is GPUs and ASICs that can be mined other coins are dangerous to the minority chains that uses the same mining algorithm.
Examples are Zcash and Bitcoin Gold, Zencash and Bitcoin Private. Zcash has the biggest hashrate then therefore BTG, ZEN, the minority chains, were attacked. Next I predict it will be Bitcoin Private.
The question now would be will the ASIC miners attack Zcash?. The answer would clearly be No because it would make their ASICs worthless.
I was not talking about any ideology. I was making an opinion on what we are witnessing today.
@MISERICORDAE PROJECT. I am not an ASIC sympathizer. Are you crazy?
Also, I reckon game theory still applies because there are multiple active miners, not only one. Although you are correct that Bitmain is the main player in producing ASICs, they are not the only one. Miners can go to another manufacturer if Bitmain acts against the miners best interests.
Examples are Zcash and Bitcoin Gold, Zencash and Bitcoin Private. Zcash has the biggest hashrate then therefore BTG, ZEN, the minority chains, were attacked. Next I predict it will be Bitcoin Private.
The question now would be will the ASIC miners attack Zcash?. The answer would clearly be No because it would make their ASICs worthless.
I was not talking about any ideology. I was making an opinion on what we are witnessing today.
@MISERICORDAE PROJECT. I am not an ASIC sympathizer. Are you crazy?
Also, I reckon game theory still applies because there are multiple active miners, not only one. Although you are correct that Bitmain is the main player in producing ASICs, they are not the only one. Miners can go to another manufacturer if Bitmain acts against the miners best interests.
June 06, 2018, 05:50:32 AM
@Vispilio. ASICs are really important because they add to the game theory mechanics. Bitmain will not be stupid to attack bitcoin because it might make their ASIC miners worthless.
Also there are other ASIC manufacturers that would try to protect their interests by adding more hash power in case of an attack on bitcoin. The real danger is really on the minority chain, bitcoin cash.
Also there are other ASIC manufacturers that would try to protect their interests by adding more hash power in case of an attack on bitcoin. The real danger is really on the minority chain, bitcoin cash.
Virtually, Bitcoin Network is run by ASICs. CPU, GPU, and FPGA mining are in the minority, perhaps not even up to 15% of the mining network with the current hashing difficulty. These ASICs that are running the Bitcoin Network are predominantly from one manufacturer, BITMAIN. The topmost mining pools have ties to the same manufacturer BITMAIN. There is no guarantee whatsoever that a company controlling a blockchain network cannot undermine the global interest of its network users. There had been an issue of discovered backdoor in those ASICs, even though BITMAIN tried to remedy the matter. There is no game theory mechanics because there is only one player. This is why blockchain developers are highly concerned and beginning to enforce bans on ASICs, e.g. Monero. Dialogue and transparency will definitely help. Developers have sympathizers and manufacturers like Bitmain have sympathizers too. The attack on Zencash and Bitcoin Gold may have been orchestrated by BITMAIN network itself (may or may not be sanctioned by the executives), sympathizers of BITMAIN or could be a 'false flag' attack by BITMAIN competitors in manufacturing. Nothing is ruled out. Dialogue is really the best approach.
June 06, 2018, 03:26:06 AM
@Vispilio. ASICs are really important because they add to the game theory mechanics. Bitmain will not be stupid to attack bitcoin because it might make their ASIC miners worthless.
Also there are other ASIC manufacturers that would try to protect their interests by adding more hash power in case of an attack on bitcoin. The real danger is really on the minority chain, bitcoin cash.
Also there are other ASIC manufacturers that would try to protect their interests by adding more hash power in case of an attack on bitcoin. The real danger is really on the minority chain, bitcoin cash.
I'm not against any kind of innovation and even saying weird things like this, claiming that ASICs are important and the manufacturer will take care of the network because of game theory, ... actually this is a very common discourse in bitcoin community, but there IS a serious problem with this kind of reasoning: It lacks an established paper work and theory base.
Cryptocurrency, begun with Satoshi's white paper has a very solid framework: Are you speaking of a decentralized, public, permissionless, trustless cash transfer protocol, implemented in a network that is maintained collaboratively again in a decentralized, permissionless, public, trustless fashion?
If the answer is YES, congratulations you passed, welcome to crypto world, otherwise you have two choices: improve and try again or establish a new theoretical framework for a new technology (say, ASIC currency, whatever).
My problem with people like you and others who dare come here and cover the mess with ASICs is not their ideas, it is about their moralities, their lack of courage to take the responsibility and 'fork' theoretically from crypto currency discourse.
This is hypocrisy, imo. The network you are talking about is neither permissionless nor trustless and is highly centralized.
Game theory won't help here, you can not say things like that, it is like saying monarchs won't do anything bad because they are committed to their common interests, according to game theory!
Guys like you remind me of my mom
She always asks me to be humble and tolerant with the government.
She argues like this : Don't they prefer to rule over a better country or aren't they that clever to understand their best interests?
Thanks god, she is not a mathematician like you and has not a clue about game theory(!) otherwise she would have convinced me not to do anything about my country's ridiculously corrupted political situation.
June 05, 2018, 08:00:35 PM
@Vispilio. ASICs are really important because they add to the game theory mechanics. Bitmain will not be stupid to attack bitcoin because it might make their ASIC miners worthless.
Also there are other ASIC manufacturers that would try to protect their interests by adding more hash power in case of an attack on bitcoin. The real danger is really on the minority chain, bitcoin cash.
Also there are other ASIC manufacturers that would try to protect their interests by adding more hash power in case of an attack on bitcoin. The real danger is really on the minority chain, bitcoin cash.
June 05, 2018, 07:35:34 PM
I agree ASIC resistance is very important and promoting decentralized and even individual mining operations is totally in line with the liberating spirit of Crypto Currencies.
Having said that, no project should expect to be taken seriously if they haven't figured out a way to defend themselves definitively from a 51 % attack.
Such a hacking risk has been known since the first inception of crypto currencies.
Having said that, no project should expect to be taken seriously if they haven't figured out a way to defend themselves definitively from a 51 % attack.
Such a hacking risk has been known since the first inception of crypto currencies.
June 05, 2018, 07:32:40 PM
This is the danger of having a mining algorithm that uses GPUs because they can be used to mine different cryptocoins. The chains that have low hashrate will be open to attack.
Bitcoin Gold and Zencash are Equihash coins. I predict the next attack will be on Bitcoin Private which also use Equihash.
Bitcoin Gold and Zencash are Equihash coins. I predict the next attack will be on Bitcoin Private which also use Equihash.
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