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Topic: a flaw in the 21 million BTC? - page 2. (Read 7724 times)

legendary
Activity: 3657
Merit: 1448
January 16, 2013, 07:22:23 AM
#36
IF we want 0.00000001 BTC to be worth no more then 0.001$
The value of BTC is dictated by supply and demand..

The market doesn't care about what we wantWink
hero member
Activity: 763
Merit: 500
January 16, 2013, 06:38:23 AM
#35
Let's pretend that we already have those 21 million out there. (I know it'd be in 2033, but bear with me Smiley
There won't be 21mio BTC in 2033, and in fact, this limit will never be fully reached.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
January 16, 2013, 04:56:38 AM
#34
Not all of the people will use BTC, it is a high-end currency that only will be used by a few of people which have enough computer and financial knowledge
sr. member
Activity: 430
Merit: 250
January 16, 2013, 04:19:05 AM
#33
bloody stupid..... 100 BTC would have saved all the bullshit with needing ASICS so soon
There is no need for asics, people want them because the first few to get them will make a pretty decent buck.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
January 16, 2013, 04:09:27 AM
#32
their 21 million coins
each coin can be divied into 8 decimals
so each coins actually represents  100,000,000 units
100,000,000 * 21,000,000 = 2,100,000,000,000,000
IF we want 0.00000001 BTC to be worth no more then 0.001$
this means we can only ever accommodate  2.1 Trillion dollars?
You don't turn the steering wheel now because your car might be heading for a cliff in thirty years. Relax, if this is every a problem, the solution is well-understood.

hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
January 16, 2013, 02:46:14 AM
#31
The numbers truly are arbitrary. There is no difference between $0.014 becoming $14 and  $14 becoming $14000.

yep, similarly, there is no difference (as of this moment) bitcoin becoming $100 USD or $94.70 AUD.

one is more psychologically significant for a specific set of people, while another set of people would find $105.58 USD / $100 AUD a more significant milestone.
legendary
Activity: 4466
Merit: 3391
January 16, 2013, 02:06:14 AM
#30
I know, but that doesn't solve the problem of the value, even if we start using satoshis. If the value of the total 21 millions is around 2 billions, that's not enough money for rich or banks to move their money over this currency, because there is not enough BTC to do that.
As noted previously, the there are 2.1 quadrillion satoshis, not 2 billion. That is plenty. Also, remember that it is not necessary to have enough currency to represent all the wealth in the world. There only needs to be enough to facilitate transactions. In other words, my house is worth $100,000, but there isn't $100,000 stored somewhere that represents my house.

Why do you? Honestly, I'd like to know. I just don't think is that possible because it has never happened with any other currency in the world (1 currency = $100,000), why would it happen to BTC? (I hope you are right Smiley
You don't think it will happen because 1 BTC = $1 million is a lot and it hasn't happened before, but that doesn't mean it won't or that it can't. But the more important answer is that even if it never reaches $1 million, it doesn't mean that Bitcoin has a flaw. It just means that Bitcoin doesn't become the only currency in the world.

The value of gold has gone up by a factor of 50 in only 30 years. Give it another 30 years and it could go up by another factor of 50 to 2500 in 60 years. Another 30 years could be another factor of 50. In your lifetime gold could go up by a factor of 125,000. So, perhaps it is possible that BTC could go up by 100,000 in your lifetime.

How can you come up with $100B? is the 21 millions btc = $10B, why is $100B in annual transactions? Sorry, but I have no idea how that works.
It's just an example, the $10B and $100B numbers are not related. BTW, the ratio of the two is called the "velocity of money".

so, are you guessing that bitcoins can reach the ratio 1 BTC = $100,000?
Any prediction on the value of BTC (in any time frame) is just speculation. Nobody knows with any certainty.

But it seems more believable to see that a  $0.014/BTC can reach a $10/BTC in the future than a $14/BTC becoming a $14000/BTC.
Again, it's just "hard" to believe that if you have a wallet of 10 BTC ($140 today), that can become (in the future) a $1,000,000

Does it seem more believable that  1 yen/BTC could reach 1000 yen/BTC ? If you say no, then you are falling victim to your dollar-based bias. The numbers truly are arbitrary. There is no difference between $0.014 becoming $14 and  $14 becoming $14000.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
January 16, 2013, 01:29:43 AM
#29
I'll just repeat myself:

There will be a total of 21 million coins. With eight decimals on top of it, we have a total of 2.1E15 indivisible units of account. This is a big number, you know. To put it in perspective, the total of all gold ever mined in the history of humankind is about 150,000 tonnes, or 1.5E11 grams, or 1.5E14 mg of gold. Ever mined. There are fourteen times more bitcoin units than milligrams of gold ever mined. In current prices, one mg of gold is worth about four US cents.

wait a min.

their 21 million coins
each coin can be divied into 8 decimals
so each coins actually represents  100,000,000 units
100,000,000 * 21,000,000 = 2,100,000,000,000,000
IF we want 0.00000001 BTC to be worth no more then 0.001$
this means we can only ever accommodate  2.1 Trillion dollars?

Sure however name a global payment network that allows you to make payments with 0.1 cent precision.  Can you western union $123.001?  ACH? Bank Wire?  Credit Card?  Is there even a need?  I mean 1 cent has a negligible purchasing power (in todays dollars).  Most countries are getting rid of coins with purchasing power around 1 US cent (circa 2012 purchasing power).  The smallest subdivision of the Euro is about 2 US cents in purchasing power, and the smallest subdivision of the Yuan is about 6 US cents in purchasing power.  If 1 satoshi rose to be worth ~$0.05 (in 2012 dollars) that would put the money supply at ~$100 Trillion.  The global money supply (all currencies, all forms) is estimated at ~$80T.    Now all this is academic I don't think Bitcoin will replace all global currencies, but it would be possible and still have $0.05 precision.  Not bad and that is without a fork to add additional units.  It is essentially a non-problem.   Now lets figure out how to grow the economy to $1B before we worry about the second $100T.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
January 16, 2013, 01:29:40 AM
#28
IF we want 0.00000001 BTC to be worth no more then 0.001$
this means we can only ever accommodate  2.1 Trillion dollars?

I agree that there are not enough bitcoins to represent all the money in the world with precision of $0.001, and that is a deficiency. However, the precision of $0.001 may not be necessary. There are no $0.001 coins and nobody (as far as I know) does transactions with that precision. Furthermore, even $0.01 coins are becoming outmoded. I think Bitcoin can get by with a $21 to $210 trillion value.

I don't want bitcoin to "get by"
if it ever come down to pushing these limits
we will just agree to have 16 decimals.

I (for lack of a better word) pray every night that this actually becomes a issue  Wink
legendary
Activity: 4466
Merit: 3391
January 16, 2013, 01:17:07 AM
#27
IF we want 0.00000001 BTC to be worth no more then 0.001$
this means we can only ever accommodate  2.1 Trillion dollars?

I agree that there are not enough bitcoins to represent all the money in the world with precision of $0.001, and that is a deficiency. However, the precision of $0.001 may not be necessary. There are no $0.001 coins and nobody (as far as I know) does transactions with that precision. Furthermore, even $0.01 coins are becoming outmoded. I think Bitcoin can get by with a $21 to $210 trillion value.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
January 16, 2013, 01:03:15 AM
#26
I'll just repeat myself:

There will be a total of 21 million coins. With eight decimals on top of it, we have a total of 2.1E15 indivisible units of account. This is a big number, you know. To put it in perspective, the total of all gold ever mined in the history of humankind is about 150,000 tonnes, or 1.5E11 grams, or 1.5E14 mg of gold. Ever mined. There are fourteen times more bitcoin units than milligrams of gold ever mined. In current prices, one mg of gold is worth about four US cents.

wait a min.

their 21 million coins
each coin can be divied into 8 decimals
so each coins actually represents  100,000,000 units
100,000,000 * 21,000,000 = 2,100,000,000,000,000
IF we want 0.00000001 BTC to be worth no more then 0.001$
this means we can only ever accommodate  2.1 Trillion dollars?
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.
January 16, 2013, 12:51:32 AM
#25
I'll just repeat myself:

There will be a total of 21 million coins. With eight decimals on top of it, we have a total of 2.1E15 indivisible units of account. This is a big number, you know. To put it in perspective, the total of all gold ever mined in the history of humankind is about 150,000 tonnes, or 1.5E11 grams, or 1.5E14 mg of gold. Ever mined. There are fourteen times more bitcoin units than milligrams of gold ever mined. In current prices, one mg of gold is worth about four US cents.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
January 16, 2013, 12:41:40 AM
#24
I don't think it would be hard to get everyone to agree to 16 decimals, if it becomes necessary.

Would the entire community have to agree in getting the new client/protocol or only something like 51% of the clients?

all who agree will move their coins to the new system ( by upgrading the software ) or be left behind in a "dead fork."



anyway, in the far future, i suspect their will be no need for money, humans will have every one of there needs provided for by busty android slave girls. Grin
legendary
Activity: 1122
Merit: 1017
ASMR El Salvador
January 16, 2013, 12:38:36 AM
#23
I don't think it would be hard to get everyone to agree to 16 decimals, if it becomes necessary.

Would the entire community have to agree in getting the new client/protocol or only something like 51% of the clients?
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
January 16, 2013, 12:25:24 AM
#22
Remember the 8 decimals is not set in stone we could easily make it 16 decimals . . .
That really depends on your definition of "easily".  The 8 decimals may not be set in stone, but they are set in the blockchain and the protocol.

I don't think it would be hard to get everyone to agree to 16 decimals, if it becomes necessary.
adding decimals doesn't really effect bitcoin in any negative way, its not like talking about changing the 21million coin limit.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
January 16, 2013, 12:18:00 AM
#21
Remember the 8 decimals is not set in stone we could easily make it 16 decimals . . .
That really depends on your definition of "easily".  The 8 decimals may not be set in stone, but they are set in the blockchain and the protocol.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
January 15, 2013, 11:50:42 PM
#20
Remember the 8 decimals is not set in stone we could easily make it 16 decimals
put that in your pipe and smoke it!

 Cheesy

the problem is not that we can't fit the worlds economy into bitcoin ( we can ... even with only 8 decimals )
the problem is having the network process all the worlds transactions every sec of every day.

legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1111
January 15, 2013, 11:12:09 PM
#19
Quote
if there were to be 21 Billion BTC, i think the historical charts would look a lot different, and we might be at something completely different from $0.014 today.

Quote
But it seems more believable to see that a  $0.014/BTC can reach a $10/BTC in the future than a $14/BTC becoming a $14000/BTC.

Again, it's just "hard" to believe that if you have a wallet of 10 BTC ($140 today), that can become (in the future) a $1,000,000

Yes but that's purely psychological. The long-term fair market-cap should be more or less the same
member
Activity: 85
Merit: 10
1h79nc
January 15, 2013, 11:09:59 PM
#18
With division down to 8 decimal places, There are really 2,099,999,997,690,000 (just over 2 quadrillion) maximum possible atomic units in the bitcoin design.

The value of BTC is dictated by supply and demand, and can go up and down. Super crazy exchange rates have happened many many times in the past with other currencies, see this article on hyperinflation for some examples...

Zimbabwe is a recent case, with hyperinflation since 1980 which had 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 ZWL = 1 ZWD, and today 361 ZWD = 1 USD...
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
January 15, 2013, 10:56:59 PM
#17
I think you are confusing certainty with possibility.

Is it possible the money supply of Bitcoin is someday worth billions, or even trillions?  Sure.  Is it certain?  No.

Nobody knows what the future holds for Bitcoin.  It could die off, it could remain a small marginalized darknet tool, it could be fringe mainstream with millions of users, it could become completely mainstream with billions of users and trillions in market cap.  Nobody knows for sure.  Plenty of people have ideas but nobody knows with absolute certainty.  Your posts seem to indicate because nobody knows the future it isn't possible.
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