Topic: A guide to how Provably Fair works. (Read 12344 times)
wow very nice, this info is good for gambler's
Block hash is prone to compromise by miners who can know the winner ahead of time. They will know the block and hence the hash before the result is announced. That's why we invented our technology that no miner can ever compromise. When ran correctly, lotteries can have very fair odds.
PS: Only issue with provably fair scheme is that it requires multiple phases of operation. It may work for games like blackjack which are in real time but it will not work for lotteries or raffles where people just buy a ticket and just wait for the draw. Requiring them to take part in something like a two phase commit may give you provable random but it just would turn off people.
At Lottoken.org that is why we purposely avoided this scheme. See our white paper. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
Lotteries in my option, especially bitcoin type of lotteries should just be based on the block hash when the lottery expires.
Lets say there is a lottery that expires in 24 hours, they should just use the block hash of the block that is solved after 24 hours and use it to determine the winning number.
With lotteries there isn't much interest because most people just play dice which has a lower edge in the gamblers favour.
All, great thread and discussion. We ran into the same problems and invented a patent-pending algorithm to solve it. Please visit us http://lottoken.org to learn more. Our white paper is at http://bit.ly/lottoken_wp. We have even live contracts deployed for our platform. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
PS: Only issue with provably fair scheme is that it requires multiple phases of operation. It may work for games like blackjack which are in real time but it will not work for lotteries or raffles where people just buy a ticket and just wait for the draw. Requiring them to take part in something like a two phase commit may give you provable random but it just would turn off people.
At Lottoken.org that is why we purposely avoided this scheme. See our white paper. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
Lotteries in my option, especially bitcoin type of lotteries should just be based on the block hash when the lottery expires.
Lets say there is a lottery that expires in 24 hours, they should just use the block hash of the block that is solved after 24 hours and use it to determine the winning number.
With lotteries there isn't much interest because most people just play dice which has a lower edge in the gamblers favour.
Yes I guess it is possible but this would only work for a specific block, what are the chances that the pool manages to find that block.
Also there is so much money involved in mining that I don't think they would get involved in this scenario to manipulate the end result.
You can also say that it will use the block hash but don't specificy which part of the block hash.
We would not recommend block hash for scenarios where lottery payouts are huge. In scenarios like that its possible for miners to collude. Some companies are positing solutions such as random.org. Lottoken's position is that if miners can collude then external random number web services can collude or get compromised too if payout if high. That is Lottoken has patented a new unique approach to random number generation for such scenarios. We do not rely on any external web based random number generation services.
I am reading your whitepaper and it actually seems interesting.
But it says that these are only offered on the Ethereum blockchain, is there anyway to get them to work on the Bitcoin blockchain or it won't be possible without smart contracts?
In the future when RSK is launched will it run on the bitcoin blockchain then?
We are right now focussed on Ethereum blockchain for our platform. But our technology (covered by the pending patent) would apply to any blockchain including bitcoin which has a smart contract concept. Idea is to have entropy collection and subsequent random number generation be part of the smart contract code itself. The concept will apply to all turing complete blockchain.
Block hash is prone to compromise by miners who can know the winner ahead of time. They will know the block and hence the hash before the result is announced. That's why we invented our technology that no miner can ever compromise. When ran correctly, lotteries can have very fair odds.
PS: Only issue with provably fair scheme is that it requires multiple phases of operation. It may work for games like blackjack which are in real time but it will not work for lotteries or raffles where people just buy a ticket and just wait for the draw. Requiring them to take part in something like a two phase commit may give you provable random but it just would turn off people.
At Lottoken.org that is why we purposely avoided this scheme. See our white paper. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
Lotteries in my option, especially bitcoin type of lotteries should just be based on the block hash when the lottery expires.
Lets say there is a lottery that expires in 24 hours, they should just use the block hash of the block that is solved after 24 hours and use it to determine the winning number.
With lotteries there isn't much interest because most people just play dice which has a lower edge in the gamblers favour.
All, great thread and discussion. We ran into the same problems and invented a patent-pending algorithm to solve it. Please visit us http://lottoken.org to learn more. Our white paper is at http://bit.ly/lottoken_wp. We have even live contracts deployed for our platform. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
PS: Only issue with provably fair scheme is that it requires multiple phases of operation. It may work for games like blackjack which are in real time but it will not work for lotteries or raffles where people just buy a ticket and just wait for the draw. Requiring them to take part in something like a two phase commit may give you provable random but it just would turn off people.
At Lottoken.org that is why we purposely avoided this scheme. See our white paper. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
Lotteries in my option, especially bitcoin type of lotteries should just be based on the block hash when the lottery expires.
Lets say there is a lottery that expires in 24 hours, they should just use the block hash of the block that is solved after 24 hours and use it to determine the winning number.
With lotteries there isn't much interest because most people just play dice which has a lower edge in the gamblers favour.
Yes I guess it is possible but this would only work for a specific block, what are the chances that the pool manages to find that block.
Also there is so much money involved in mining that I don't think they would get involved in this scenario to manipulate the end result.
You can also say that it will use the block hash but don't specificy which part of the block hash.
We would not recommend block hash for scenarios where lottery payouts are huge. In scenarios like that its possible for miners to collude. Some companies are positing solutions such as random.org. Lottoken's position is that if miners can collude then external random number web services can collude or get compromised too if payout if high. That is Lottoken has patented a new unique approach to random number generation for such scenarios. We do not rely on any external web based random number generation services.
I am reading your whitepaper and it actually seems interesting.
But it says that these are only offered on the Ethereum blockchain, is there anyway to get them to work on the Bitcoin blockchain or it won't be possible without smart contracts?
In the future when RSK is launched will it run on the bitcoin blockchain then?
Block hash is prone to compromise by miners who can know the winner ahead of time. They will know the block and hence the hash before the result is announced. That's why we invented our technology that no miner can ever compromise. When ran correctly, lotteries can have very fair odds.
PS: Only issue with provably fair scheme is that it requires multiple phases of operation. It may work for games like blackjack which are in real time but it will not work for lotteries or raffles where people just buy a ticket and just wait for the draw. Requiring them to take part in something like a two phase commit may give you provable random but it just would turn off people.
At Lottoken.org that is why we purposely avoided this scheme. See our white paper. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
Lotteries in my option, especially bitcoin type of lotteries should just be based on the block hash when the lottery expires.
Lets say there is a lottery that expires in 24 hours, they should just use the block hash of the block that is solved after 24 hours and use it to determine the winning number.
With lotteries there isn't much interest because most people just play dice which has a lower edge in the gamblers favour.
All, great thread and discussion. We ran into the same problems and invented a patent-pending algorithm to solve it. Please visit us http://lottoken.org to learn more. Our white paper is at http://bit.ly/lottoken_wp. We have even live contracts deployed for our platform. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
PS: Only issue with provably fair scheme is that it requires multiple phases of operation. It may work for games like blackjack which are in real time but it will not work for lotteries or raffles where people just buy a ticket and just wait for the draw. Requiring them to take part in something like a two phase commit may give you provable random but it just would turn off people.
At Lottoken.org that is why we purposely avoided this scheme. See our white paper. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
Lotteries in my option, especially bitcoin type of lotteries should just be based on the block hash when the lottery expires.
Lets say there is a lottery that expires in 24 hours, they should just use the block hash of the block that is solved after 24 hours and use it to determine the winning number.
With lotteries there isn't much interest because most people just play dice which has a lower edge in the gamblers favour.
Yes I guess it is possible but this would only work for a specific block, what are the chances that the pool manages to find that block.
Also there is so much money involved in mining that I don't think they would get involved in this scenario to manipulate the end result.
You can also say that it will use the block hash but don't specificy which part of the block hash.
We would not recommend block hash for scenarios where lottery payouts are huge. In scenarios like that its possible for miners to collude. Some companies are positing solutions such as random.org. Lottoken's position is that if miners can collude then external random number web services can collude or get compromised too if payout if high. That is Lottoken has patented a new unique approach to random number generation for such scenarios. We do not rely on any external web based random number generation services.
Block hash is prone to compromise by miners who can know the winner ahead of time. They will know the block and hence the hash before the result is announced. That's why we invented our technology that no miner can ever compromise. When ran correctly, lotteries can have very fair odds.
PS: Only issue with provably fair scheme is that it requires multiple phases of operation. It may work for games like blackjack which are in real time but it will not work for lotteries or raffles where people just buy a ticket and just wait for the draw. Requiring them to take part in something like a two phase commit may give you provable random but it just would turn off people.
At Lottoken.org that is why we purposely avoided this scheme. See our white paper. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
Lotteries in my option, especially bitcoin type of lotteries should just be based on the block hash when the lottery expires.
Lets say there is a lottery that expires in 24 hours, they should just use the block hash of the block that is solved after 24 hours and use it to determine the winning number.
With lotteries there isn't much interest because most people just play dice which has a lower edge in the gamblers favour.
All, great thread and discussion. We ran into the same problems and invented a patent-pending algorithm to solve it. Please visit us http://lottoken.org to learn more. Our white paper is at http://bit.ly/lottoken_wp. We have even live contracts deployed for our platform. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
PS: Only issue with provably fair scheme is that it requires multiple phases of operation. It may work for games like blackjack which are in real time but it will not work for lotteries or raffles where people just buy a ticket and just wait for the draw. Requiring them to take part in something like a two phase commit may give you provable random but it just would turn off people.
At Lottoken.org that is why we purposely avoided this scheme. See our white paper. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
Lotteries in my option, especially bitcoin type of lotteries should just be based on the block hash when the lottery expires.
Lets say there is a lottery that expires in 24 hours, they should just use the block hash of the block that is solved after 24 hours and use it to determine the winning number.
With lotteries there isn't much interest because most people just play dice which has a lower edge in the gamblers favour.
Yes I guess it is possible but this would only work for a specific block, what are the chances that the pool manages to find that block.
Also there is so much money involved in mining that I don't think they would get involved in this scenario to manipulate the end result.
You can also say that it will use the block hash but don't specificy which part of the block hash.
Block hash is prone to compromise by miners who can know the winner ahead of time. They will know the block and hence the hash before the result is announced. That's why we invented our technology that no miner can ever compromise. When ran correctly, lotteries can have very fair odds.
PS: Only issue with provably fair scheme is that it requires multiple phases of operation. It may work for games like blackjack which are in real time but it will not work for lotteries or raffles where people just buy a ticket and just wait for the draw. Requiring them to take part in something like a two phase commit may give you provable random but it just would turn off people.
At Lottoken.org that is why we purposely avoided this scheme. See our white paper. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
Lotteries in my option, especially bitcoin type of lotteries should just be based on the block hash when the lottery expires.
Lets say there is a lottery that expires in 24 hours, they should just use the block hash of the block that is solved after 24 hours and use it to determine the winning number.
With lotteries there isn't much interest because most people just play dice which has a lower edge in the gamblers favour.
All, great thread and discussion. We ran into the same problems and invented a patent-pending algorithm to solve it. Please visit us http://lottoken.org to learn more. Our white paper is at http://bit.ly/lottoken_wp. We have even live contracts deployed for our platform. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
PS: Only issue with provably fair scheme is that it requires multiple phases of operation. It may work for games like blackjack which are in real time but it will not work for lotteries or raffles where people just buy a ticket and just wait for the draw. Requiring them to take part in something like a two phase commit may give you provable random but it just would turn off people.
At Lottoken.org that is why we purposely avoided this scheme. See our white paper. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
Lotteries in my option, especially bitcoin type of lotteries should just be based on the block hash when the lottery expires.
Lets say there is a lottery that expires in 24 hours, they should just use the block hash of the block that is solved after 24 hours and use it to determine the winning number.
With lotteries there isn't much interest because most people just play dice which has a lower edge in the gamblers favour.
All, great thread and discussion. We ran into the same problems and invented a patent-pending algorithm to solve it. Please visit us http://lottoken.org to learn more. Our white paper is at http://bit.ly/lottoken_wp. We have even live contracts deployed for our platform. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
PS: Only issue with provably fair scheme is that it requires multiple phases of operation. It may work for games like blackjack which are in real time but it will not work for lotteries or raffles where people just buy a ticket and just wait for the draw. Requiring them to take part in something like a two phase commit may give you provable random but it just would turn off people.
At Lottoken.org that is why we purposely avoided this scheme. See our white paper. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
Lotteries in my option, especially bitcoin type of lotteries should just be based on the block hash when the lottery expires.
Lets say there is a lottery that expires in 24 hours, they should just use the block hash of the block that is solved after 24 hours and use it to determine the winning number.
With lotteries there isn't much interest because most people just play dice which has a lower edge in the gamblers favour.
All, great thread and discussion. We ran into the same problems and invented a patent-pending algorithm to solve it. Please visit us http://lottoken.org to learn more. Our white paper is at http://bit.ly/lottoken_wp. We have even live contracts deployed for our platform. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
PS: Only issue with provably fair scheme is that it requires multiple phases of operation. It may work for games like blackjack which are in real time but it will not work for lotteries or raffles where people just buy a ticket and just wait for the draw. Requiring them to take part in something like a two phase commit may give you provable random but it just would turn off people.
At Lottoken.org that is why we purposely avoided this scheme. See our white paper. We believe we are the first ones to solve this problem. We would love to hear your feedback. We would greatly appreciate it.
All, great thread and discussion. We ran into the same problems and invented a patent-pending algorithm to solve it. Please visit us http://lottoken.org to learn more. Our white paper is at http://bit.ly/lottoken_wp. We have even live contracts deployed for our platform.
It's fair in the sense that both the operator or website and the player have no direct control of the outcome. The chance of winning or losing applies on the games.
If you play a lottery type game with 1% chance of winning, and you lose almost all the time (or 99%) that's fair. The house edge is different from the fairness of the game, as that is one aspect where the casino makes money, but at least you know that from the beginning.
What is being talked about here is the unpredictability of random number generation but at the same time verifiable after the fact.
If you play a lottery type game with 1% chance of winning, and you lose almost all the time (or 99%) that's fair. The house edge is different from the fairness of the game, as that is one aspect where the casino makes money, but at least you know that from the beginning.
What is being talked about here is the unpredictability of random number generation but at the same time verifiable after the fact.
I don't know . Even if I read that it's probably fair and stuff and even if someone shows me all the proofs required even then I will feel that everything in rigged and it's not fair. I don't know , it's just a personal feeling
You may be right. I think there is nothing fair in the world of gambling. If anyone is saying this thing that he is playing a fair game, he is definitely telling alien then. Being fair and dealing, gambling are entirely opposite and are just like having inversely proportional relation in between them.
You have to understand how the proof works. When you do understand it and the variables, and how much control or influence you have over the results, then you know that is is fair. Provably fair. Your feelings at that point don't matter, because it's all math and numbers don't lie.
In the case of live dealers or live lotteries, ... it's like the analog equivalent of provably fair. What you feel here depends on how good the video is, or if there are camera tricks, or something. Trying to get a hash collision or rigging a provably fair game is much more difficult.
In the case of live dealers or live lotteries, ... it's like the analog equivalent of provably fair. What you feel here depends on how good the video is, or if there are camera tricks, or something. Trying to get a hash collision or rigging a provably fair game is much more difficult.
I don't know . Even if I read that it's probably fair and stuff and even if someone shows me all the proofs required even then I will feel that everything in rigged and it's not fair. I don't know , it's just a personal feeling
Excellent summary, thanks for the sharing! 
provably fair can't be predict.
but sometimes i have picked number by using
SHA256 hash of the secret of the next game: 76F1077B654E147B27FAF03EEF4D286C1B4E3AAA000849B76D3BDA8FFE2D598F
there are 64 strings.
take first 4 char 76F1
break them by using your own mind how you can break that number?
7+6+6+1 = 20
077B
7+7+2= 16 and so on.
note use a=1 b=2 and so on.
but sometimes i have picked number by using
SHA256 hash of the secret of the next game: 76F1077B654E147B27FAF03EEF4D286C1B4E3AAA000849B76D3BDA8FFE2D598F
there are 64 strings.
take first 4 char 76F1
break them by using your own mind how you can break that number?
7+6+6+1 = 20
077B
7+7+2= 16 and so on.
note use a=1 b=2 and so on.
What are you trying to do here? Why would you sum the digits of groups of characters from a hash?
And why use a=1, b=2 when a represents 10 and b represents 11?
I think you may as well just play randomly than think that your algorithm is helping you at all.
provably fair can't be predict.
but sometimes i have picked number by using
SHA256 hash of the secret of the next game: 76F1077B654E147B27FAF03EEF4D286C1B4E3AAA000849B76D3BDA8FFE2D598F
there are 64 strings.
take first 4 char 76F1
break them by using your own mind how you can break that number?
7+6+6+1 = 20
077B
7+7+2= 16 and so on.
note use a=1 b=2 and so on.
but sometimes i have picked number by using
SHA256 hash of the secret of the next game: 76F1077B654E147B27FAF03EEF4D286C1B4E3AAA000849B76D3BDA8FFE2D598F
there are 64 strings.
take first 4 char 76F1
break them by using your own mind how you can break that number?
7+6+6+1 = 20
077B
7+7+2= 16 and so on.
note use a=1 b=2 and so on.
Why in the world did you bump this 4 year old thread. I actually remember reading this thread about 4 years back.
Someone really should start locking and archiving certain threads because they are irrelevent in some topics.
Quote
Take your client seed (c650067f5558ada79196dfd45a1de76b), add the shuffled transaction hash/ id from your payment (cb9a5905f361c8adb66609c0056c0c33oa93d986ea670198c4d651178c4e1i66) and hash it using SHA256 (64e602175c43187d2ca420bd6dc415ad0cd03247ac8635ca51232f03488f8f04) . We then select the first x numbers in that string and set that as the provable result. In this case: The winning combination is 6,4,6,etc
Assuming that the server seed has been taken from Blockchain entropy which is completely verifiable, is this PF with PR? The player can be presented the shuffled hash after each spin and can set his client seed before each spin.
Where would I get a provably fair system coded like this? For a dice game that rolls the sum of two six-sided dice?
That's a great guide TF. Thanks.
A potential solution involves using multiple servers controlled by different people to generate the result.
The problem is that this solution, will significantly slow down the site, and now relies on two services or more. So it can work, but it will turn out to be very expensive later on.
If that is what is needed to make something provably fair, even for investors, it might work. But then people will have to trust that the two separate servers do not collude.
This might work for a slower game, for example, a card game where people take up to half a minute to think their next move. But again, it introduces a new variable that may deter either players (because they get impatient) or investors (because they have to trust two different people now.)
Indeed. Setting up a service that is provably fair for both players and investors is rather tricky.
In the end though, you can't get around trusting the operator of the site if you're investing (and also if you're playing), because the operator might just as well run off with the coins.
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