A Letter to Matthew - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

bitcoinBull

legendary

Activity: 826

Merit: 1001

rippleFanatic

Quote from: blablahblah on September 10, 2012, 01:01:16 PM

So many people seem absolutely convinced that MNW has gone over to the Dark Side. However, I saw his "facebook" youtube video, and it reinforces my conviction that he was just doing an epic prank for the betterment of the community.

How does some video he made over a year ago any indication to his motivation for starting a pirate "bet"? The only reason this was an epic "prank" instead of a win for him, is that he was dumb enough to side with pirate.

MNW knows how to signal when he's trolling and when he's not. Most of the time he's trolling. Occasionally he gets serious, eg when he accepted pre-orders for the magazine. During his bet, he made every attempt to signal that it was a genuine offer. Furthermore, if it was a prank there was nobody but himself to enjoy it (pranks are funny because you can laugh with witnesses who were in on the joke). It only started to seem like a bad joke in the third week after it was clear pirate wasn't going to pay, and he started accepting more bets way beyond the original 10k cap. Even at that point, MNW was very quiet and any signs that it was prank were extremely muted.

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: JoelKatz on September 10, 2012, 01:09:05 PM

Quote from: blablahblah on September 10, 2012, 01:01:16 PM

So many people seem absolutely convinced that MNW has gone over to the Dark Side. However, I saw his "facebook" youtube video, and it reinforces my conviction that he was just doing an epic prank for the betterment of the community. Even if he was being immature, reckless, thoughtless, or whatever, my gut tells me he's got a good soul - hence the net benefit that this debacle will result in. Besides, if you've got a community with a gambling addiction as bad as this one has, mere 'talking' won't help.

You have no idea how much I want to believe that, but I can't. All the evidence suggests that Matthew, at least initially, believed that there was a good chance that Pirate would pay up by acquiring his own debt at a discount or arranging partial settlements. And, unfortunately, I firmly believe that he fully intended to try to collect every penny had he won and aggressively pursue scammer tags for anyone who didn't pay up.

I often criticize people for believing what they want to believe rather than what the evidence shows. Now I know why people want to do that.

We can't divine what Matt's true intentions originally were. Thankfully, we don't need need to.

It was sufficient to notice that he was making wagers involving (well, invoking since no escrow) amounts of bitcoin too large to be reasonably rectified with his public persona.

Everybody knows you can't cheat an honest man.

Or as The Streets put it, "You can't con an honest Jon." Cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTB929OoqI4

JoelKatz

legendary

Activity: 1596

Merit: 1012

Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: Yolocoin on September 10, 2012, 01:52:49 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Think of it this way please: IF PIRATE HAD PAID, THEN MNW WOULD HAVE STOLEN NEARLY A MILLION DOLLARS FROM THE COMMUNITY.

What's the point of an impossible hypothetical? Haven't you seen the interest calculations against Pirate's outstanding debts? It's impossible for pirate to pay it all back.

At the time the bet was first offered, Pirate debt was selling for 35 to 50 cents on the dollar. There were people who believed that Pirate would buy up almost all of his own debt at a discounted rate and pay the rest at full value. I agree that this is impossible, but there were plenty of people at the time the bet was initially made (likely including Matthew) who believed otherwise.

Yolocoin

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: ?? on ??

Think of it this way please: IF PIRATE HAD PAID, THEN MNW WOULD HAVE STOLEN NEARLY A MILLION DOLLARS FROM THE COMMUNITY.

What's the point of an impossible hypothetical? Haven't you seen the interest calculations against Pirate's outstanding debts? It's impossible for pirate to pay it all back.

Atlas

jr. member

Activity: 56

Merit: 1

Quote from: JoelKatz on September 10, 2012, 01:09:05 PM

Quote from: blablahblah on September 10, 2012, 01:01:16 PM

So many people seem absolutely convinced that MNW has gone over to the Dark Side. However, I saw his "facebook" youtube video, and it reinforces my conviction that he was just doing an epic prank for the betterment of the community. Even if he was being immature, reckless, thoughtless, or whatever, my gut tells me he's got a good soul - hence the net benefit that this debacle will result in. Besides, if you've got a community with a gambling addiction as bad as this one has, mere 'talking' won't help.

You have no idea how much I want to believe that, but I can't. All the evidence suggests that Matthew, at least initially, believed that there was a good chance that Pirate would pay up by acquiring his own debt at a discount or arranging partial settlements. And, unfortunately, I firmly believe that he fully intended to try to collect every penny had he won and aggressively pursue scammer tags for anyone who didn't pay up.

I will vouch for this. He mentioned in IRC several times that we should be afraid of losing to the case of a Pirate payout. He talked about what he would do with his winnings from time-to-time. There is even a thread about it. His behavior points to him never considering the idea of losing but happily winning. When he did lose, he took the sociopathic route of trying to save face through weasel words.

When I challenged him on his inability to pay on IRC, he put me on ignore. He has never ignored me once in our months of bickering. That to me was only a testament of stress and insecurity. He felt shame for what was about to happen. In the remaining integrity of his mind, he knew what was to be done.

I am confident this was not created as a prank but a way for him to win easy money. However, he never considered the desires of the other parties in his scheme.

JoelKatz

legendary

Activity: 1596

Merit: 1012

Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: blablahblah on September 10, 2012, 01:01:16 PM

So many people seem absolutely convinced that MNW has gone over to the Dark Side. However, I saw his "facebook" youtube video, and it reinforces my conviction that he was just doing an epic prank for the betterment of the community. Even if he was being immature, reckless, thoughtless, or whatever, my gut tells me he's got a good soul - hence the net benefit that this debacle will result in. Besides, if you've got a community with a gambling addiction as bad as this one has, mere 'talking' won't help.

You have no idea how much I want to believe that, but I can't. All the evidence suggests that Matthew, at least initially, believed that there was a good chance that Pirate would pay up by acquiring his own debt at a discount or arranging partial settlements. And, unfortunately, I firmly believe that he fully intended to try to collect every penny had he won and aggressively pursue scammer tags for anyone who didn't pay up.

I often criticize people for believing what they want to believe rather than what the evidence shows. Now I know why people want to do that.

the_thing

sr. member

Activity: 546

Merit: 252

Proof-of-Stake Blockchain Network

Quote from: blablahblah on September 10, 2012, 01:01:16 PM

So many people seem absolutely convinced that MNW has gone over to the Dark Side. However, I saw his "facebook" youtube video, and it reinforces my conviction that he was just doing an epic prank for the betterment of the community. Even if he was being immature, reckless, thoughtless, or whatever, my gut tells me he's got a good soul - hence the net benefit that this debacle will result in. Besides, if you've got a community with a gambling addiction as bad as this one has, mere 'talking' won't help.

No. He made a Win-No Loss bet and didn't win.
But you make a good point about gambling addiction. It really seems that Bitcoiners are heavy gamblers.

blablahblah

hero member

Activity: 775

Merit: 1000

Quote from: muyuu on September 10, 2012, 11:50:36 AM

Quote from: the_thing on September 10, 2012, 11:43:13 AM

Quote from: muyuu on September 10, 2012, 05:38:02 AM

...

I don't think scamming is ok. However, scamming is not a matter of my opinion nor a matter of morality. People just get scammed. Scammers don't contemplate whether their victims deserve to lose their money or not. It is inevitable that gullible people get scammed.

Now, Bitcoin is in its infancy. It is very vulnerable in various ways. Personally, I don't care about victims of scams. But the market gets fucked in the ass everytime you fall for someone like Pirate. If we want Bitcoin to survive, the members of its core community MUST change their approach. Otherwise this wonderful project is doomed.

I agree completely, but some people seem to make this "zap" connection in their minds to equate the fact that it will happen, with the conclusion that it doesn't matter and that one shouldn't even try to do anything about it. Others take an extra step and join the criminal ranks.
...

So many people seem absolutely convinced that MNW has gone over to the Dark Side. However, I saw his "facebook" youtube video, and it reinforces my conviction that he was just doing an epic prank for the betterment of the community. Even if he was being immature, reckless, thoughtless, or whatever, my gut tells me he's got a good soul - hence the net benefit that this debacle will result in. Besides, if you've got a community with a gambling addiction as bad as this one has, mere 'talking' won't help.

muyuu

donator

Activity: 980

Merit: 1000

Quote from: the_thing on September 10, 2012, 11:43:13 AM

Quote from: muyuu on September 10, 2012, 05:38:02 AM

This is the way to go on an individual basis. However, it's best not to be "contaminated" to the point you think scamming is okay or taking gullible people for a ride is justifiable or even deserved. That's when you get a perma-3rd world society.

I advocate the Japanese school of law enforcement. Expect the worst, do your best and be heavy handed with the rotten apples. It just f****** works.

This community is a scammer/sociopath magnet, and culture must be shaped accordingly to ameliorate this very obvious reality. It won't happen spontaneously, we must react strongly to scams and frauds.

I don't think scamming is ok. However, scamming is not a matter of my opinion nor a matter of morality. People just get scammed. Scammers don't contemplate whether their victims deserve to lose their money or not. It is inevitable that gullible people get scammed.

Now, Bitcoin is in its infancy. It is very vulnerable in various ways. Personally, I don't care about victims of scams. But the market gets fucked in the ass everytime you fall for someone like Pirate. If we want Bitcoin to survive, the members of its core community MUST change their approach. Otherwise this wonderful project is doomed.

I agree completely, but some people seem to make this "zap" connection in their minds to equate the fact that it will happen, with the conclusion that it doesn't matter and that one shouldn't even try to do anything about it. Others take an extra step and join the criminal ranks.

However gullible these people were, it's still for the best that scammers are hunted down if at all possible.

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: niko on September 10, 2012, 01:08:38 AM

C'mon, folks, this is really pathetic. Just look at all the MNW videos, interviews, and posts. You did look at these before deciding to do business or anything else with him, right? What were you expecting? I find it preposterous that any one of you here would claim how you trusted him and supported him, but now he really let you down so you are scolding him.

Why should we have to perform our own due diligence?!?! I demand to be coddled and protected from my own credulity by the Proper Authorities. Angry

Why should we have to be responsible for being trolled?!?! I demand anyone who trolls me be labeled a scammer, regardless of whether any money changed hands in an actual scam. Cry

Damn those obvious troll scams! They made me appear foolish, which cannot possibly be my own fault. Angry

Something must be done so it will never happen again. Cry

the_thing

sr. member

Activity: 546

Merit: 252

Proof-of-Stake Blockchain Network

Quote from: muyuu on September 10, 2012, 05:38:02 AM

This is the way to go on an individual basis. However, it's best not to be "contaminated" to the point you think scamming is okay or taking gullible people for a ride is justifiable or even deserved. That's when you get a perma-3rd world society.

I advocate the Japanese school of law enforcement. Expect the worst, do your best and be heavy handed with the rotten apples. It just f****** works.

This community is a scammer/sociopath magnet, and culture must be shaped accordingly to ameliorate this very obvious reality. It won't happen spontaneously, we must react strongly to scams and frauds.

I don't think scamming is ok. However, scamming is not a matter of my opinion nor a matter of morality. People just get scammed. Scammers don't contemplate whether their victims deserve to lose their money or not. It is inevitable that gullible people get scammed.

Now, Bitcoin is in its infancy. It is very vulnerable in various ways. Personally, I don't care about victims of scams. But the market gets fucked in the ass everytime you fall for someone like Pirate. If we want Bitcoin to survive, the members of its core community MUST change their approach. Otherwise this wonderful project is doomed.

Rassah

legendary

Activity: 1680

Merit: 1035

Quote from: blablahblah on September 10, 2012, 04:24:57 AM

Quote from: Rassah on September 09, 2012, 11:39:46 PM

People betting against Matthew weren't "gambling." I placed a bet, and I never gamble.

Placing bets isn't gambling?
You gambled that MNW would be a n00b and be forced to pay out on such a sure-fire thing, and you totally lost that bet.

...At least you didn't lose any money though, right?

I "gambled" that I would not risk anything, and likely not get anything. Knowing what the outcome will be isn't exactly gambling.
No I didn't lose any money. Just time, and my respect for Matthew's trolling skills. For someone with so much imagination and talent, he really disappointed.

Quote from: the_thing on September 10, 2012, 04:10:35 AM

Jesus Christ...
The bitcoin community is gullible as fuck. ...
The only thing you all need, is to learn how to use your brains.

You sound like an SA goon. They tend to pick out the stupidest and loudest in the crowd, point fingers, accuse the whole crowd of that behavior, and laugh smugly about their own superiority (see SA vs anime, furry, Bitcoin, etc). I'm fairly certain most people didn't put money into any of the scamy HYIPs here. Pretty sure most people didn't lose any money from betting on Matthew, either. We're not stupid. Just upset when someone else does something stupid. From the looks of it, most people here just lurk. Thanks for trying to look out for the "Bitcoin community," but considering the whole reason Matthew's bet was started in the first place (he was annoyed at how vocal the community was when it was telling stupid members to stop supporting ponzi scams) I think we'll be fine without it.

Willowbitcoin

member

Activity: 114

Merit: 12

evoo you have a great way with words

muyuu

donator

Activity: 980

Merit: 1000

Quote from: the_thing on September 10, 2012, 04:31:49 AM

I come from eastern Europe. I consider everyone a dishonest and dangerous person, until proven otherwise. If it wasn't for this mindset, I probably wouldn't be alive to write this post.
It's ok if you're proud of being naive. But bear in mind that Bitcoin (and the Internet in general) more resembles eastern Europe than the USA (or whatever liberal, over-protective country you come from).

This is the way to go on an individual basis. However, it's best not to be "contaminated" to the point you think scamming is okay or taking gullible people for a ride is justifiable or even deserved. That's when you get a perma-3rd world society.

I advocate the Japanese school of law enforcement. Expect the worst, do your best and be heavy handed with the rotten apples. It just f****** works.

This community is a scammer/sociopath magnet, and culture must be shaped accordingly to ameliorate this very obvious reality. It won't happen spontaneously, we must react strongly to scams and frauds.

bitcats

legendary

Activity: 1015

Merit: 1001

Quote from: flower1024 on September 10, 2012, 04:13:36 AM

i dont know where you come from but i am proud to be raised in a way to first assume other people are honest.

Then your parents must be very religious or very green and inexperienced (or both).

greyhawk

hero member

Activity: 952

Merit: 1009

Quote from: the_thing on September 10, 2012, 04:31:49 AM

I come from eastern Europe. I consider everyone a dishonest and dangerous person, until proven otherwise. If it wasn't for this mindset, I probably wouldn't be alive to write this post.
It's ok if you're proud of being naive. But bear in mind that Bitcoin (and the Internet in general) more resembles eastern Europe than the USA (or whatever liberal, over-protective country you come from).

This. Exactly this. If more people realized this, there would be a lot less victims about.

tnkflx

sr. member

Activity: 349

Merit: 250

What is this bet everyone is talking about?

the_thing

sr. member

Activity: 546

Merit: 252

Proof-of-Stake Blockchain Network

Quote from: flower1024 on September 10, 2012, 04:13:36 AM

Quote from: the_thing on September 10, 2012, 04:10:35 AM

Jesus Christ...
The bitcoin community is gullible as fuck. Therefore, it attracts scammers.
That's how simple it is. No pathetic posts about feeling betrayed, no multiple threads about the same topic (being butthurt about getting scammed), no tears and drama is needed.

The only thing you all need, is to learn how to use your brains. Do not trust anyone, especially not just because you had sweet chit-chat over Skype and PM's. Your parents obviously failed to raise you, because even kindergarten kids know they're not supposed to trust strangers.

i dont know where you come from but i am proud to be raised in a way to first assume other people are honest.

i should not think this about random internet people though; lessen learned.

I come from eastern Europe. I consider everyone a dishonest and dangerous person, until proven otherwise. If it wasn't for this mindset, I probably wouldn't be alive to write this post.
It's ok if you're proud of being naive. But bear in mind that Bitcoin (and the Internet in general) more resembles eastern Europe than the USA (or whatever liberal, over-protective country you come from).

Gyrsur

legendary

Activity: 2856

Merit: 1520

Bitcoin Legal Tender Countries: 2 of 206

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: repentance on September 09, 2012, 08:34:28 PM

I'm not willing to share my PMs with Matthew, but I'll confirm that as late as last week he fully expected pirate to pay (I don't know why and didn't ask). This fits with his original post about the community being too quick to label people as scammers (which is what started the bet).

I'm sure he did, but the fact that he wasn't able to follow through on his side of the bet proves that it was just a simple theft. Think of it this way please: IF PIRATE HAD PAID, THEN MNW WOULD HAVE STOLEN NEARLY A MILLION DOLLARS FROM THE COMMUNITY. When you see it that way, you'll realize just how bad his scam really was. He was gambling his entire reputation on the chance of getting a quick million, and he lost.

so true!

blablahblah

hero member

Activity: 775

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Rassah on September 09, 2012, 11:39:46 PM

People betting against Matthew weren't "gambling." I placed a bet, and I never gamble.

Placing bets isn't gambling?
You gambled that MNW would be a n00b and be forced to pay out on such a sure-fire thing, and you totally lost that bet.

...At least you didn't lose any money though, right?

Topic: A Letter to Matthew - page 2. (Read 8066 times)