Topic: A little help to decide if you want to do a groupbuy or not... - page 3. (Read 82706 times)

That is one cool outcome of it that I didn't expect, I met some new friends. It is kind of cool how you all go through the same process and have people to debate with and complain with (in Avalon's case), and in the end it kind of brings everyone together.. like bonding with your family!

Good post  SebastianJu

I agree 100% with everything you mentioned.....

My  learning experience has been priceless however, would not  trade it  for the world.

I would personally like to thank all the contributions in my GB's(financial, guidance), and the friends and experience I have acquired along the way

Cheers

Thanks for the laugh. But yes, it looks like that is something needed in red. Even though i wonder someone whose money nearly was completely lost, now got nearly all back and then needs the small rest now so badly because the childs dont have a meal anymore. Doesnt match. And i could wonder why eve is protesting when he dont even is a member in my groupbuy. By speaking about that... im really glad that everyone in the groupbuy was ok with me keeping a bit for my work and the cost that were created.

MY BIG KUDOS!!!

ctrl-c'ed + ctrl-v'ed THX!
&cheers!!

THANKS A LOT for writing and sharing that Sebastian!!! Really a good and impressive work, well done!!!

Kind Regards!
-anykeywhy-

PSA: Since it seems common sense isn't always common, perhaps *All* Group Buy Coordinators should add this disclaimer in their terms (or something to this effect):

** By agreeing to participate in this Group Buy, you agree to NOT use your money that was primarily meant for: food, clothing, rent/mortgage, short term emergency funds, car payments, insurance, 401(k), IRAs, or children's college funds. These are considered HIGH RISK purchases of hardware, with funds tied up for weeks, and are NOT meant for those trying to "get rich quick." **

Unfortunately for me, my Avalon group buy stopped short of about less than 60 BTC. Had to refund everyone. I got into a private group buy and that is much better handled considering a lot less members. But we're still going for a refund now instead of waiting for the chips.

The good news is, for me, I avoided all the potential stress and head aches and heart aches and all the aches and pains.

Well said SebastianJu.

I know in my case, with my 3% fee on seven Avalons, it is not worth the time and trouble it takes to run my group buy. For instance, I made about 9 BTC for 3-4 months of work at an hour+ each day... sometimes 8+ hours in a day. Of course, Avalon really screwed me/us over, but still.. you need to plan for delays in your hosting price structure.

Yes, it takes about a hour a day (sometimes more) to keep 100+ people updated, answer questions, update investor account information, and all issues involved with the hosting of the equipment.. it is a lot of work. If it is a hosted group buy you also have to think about share transfers, consider using an exchange to save you the headache... I do it by hand in Excel the old school way.  

Really consider charging a lot more than 3% which seems to be the standard norm in group buy hostings. I'd suggest 8%-10% to make it worth your while. If no one wants to participate for that high of a percentage, then don't run the group buy and save yourself the trouble.

In case I didn't learn my lesson, I am doing another group buy now (which is closed). I am just asking for it... working for pennies is not very fun. I like to think I'm providing a good service to the community (which makes it all worth it in the end.) If it wasn't me doing the group buy, it could be some scammer, so I would prefer I do it and everyone not get scammed.  

Oh eve, I appreciate the warnings you incessantly give these forums but I've actually worked closely with and talked with these Group Buy Coordinators you accuse of being evil and greedy.

Evil and greedy seems to be the furthest description of the 2 GBCs I've vetted & the new GBC I'm currently vetting. I've also gotten *good* free advice from CanaryInTheMine, waldohoover, and CoinHoarder. You couldn't be any further from the truth. You have no idea about the sacrifices of time/money/stress these GBCs must go thru behind the scenes to give Group Buyers the world's best prices. You have no idea how much work it takes behind the scenes to succeed in a Group Buy, whether you're a newbie or a veteran.

BTW, newsflash: this isn't communism where everyone gets paid the same for no effort or groundbreaking efforts. How much profit do you propose a Group Buy Coordinator should make to stay in business and prepare for the future? Should we create a committee to figure this out?

Until you've walked a mile in their mocassins, your argument holds no water.

P.S. You can't shoot the messenger in this case about being greedy or evil; if you care to dig in my posting history on Reddit, here, and even the Surfermag BB up to 8 years ago, I've been helping folks out in forum after forum for free for as long back as you care to dig (8 years worth, if you want). And if you look at the transactions in my GB, I haven't made a single red satoshi in profits from my fellow co-op members, and I set it up this way on purpose because I just wanted access to the best tech at the best values at the ultra lowest costs. That's pretty much it. I also set up my co-op as a democracy too, as I'm no tyrant.

This is me trying to give complete strangers my good paying job in paradise (at a National Lab, no less) 5 years ago; I can't make this shizz up: http://forum.surfermag.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=1369010

Many used their meager savings in lieu of food, clothing and rents to pay for the group buys and after 4 months, we were told that chips will not deliver but getting a refund. Zefir was considerate and we wish more people like him who gave refunds immediately to those less fortunate to alleviate their suffering.

In the first place who started the group buy and who wants to make money from the group buy?? Don't blame those on your group buy blamed them on Yifu if you will.

Everyone in the group buy should get a full refund, those who are rich and wealthy can always donate to their favorite group buy mods.

5.6 batches is 5.6 x 10,000 chip = 56,000 x .079 btc each = 4256 btc x 10% = 425btc profit x $145 = $61k very good.  Were you Greedy. ? with the 61k you could buy 10 Jupiter for FREE,.

reserved

Sebastian shows that it is possible for one person to manage 300+ people,

And you have to factor in all of the complications that the original company offered for all of those really coordinated people like SBJ.  They were able to take a largely fractured buy (things only got more complicated when people started freaking out about ROI and sold off GB purchases to others.. this was good actually since I got a few chips this way as a developer), and were able to reasonably talk to all of their friends that bought with them through the whole struggle to the final resolution of refund or no refund.  

I just don't think those terrible courses of events shall play out for awhile in the BTC community.  Or I'm just hopeful.

Either way these group buy leaders for Avalon show'd greater face than the company they were buying from.  Perhaps these Avalon GB coordinators could give customer service advice to some non-bitcoin related companies I can think of  

I think a Group Buy of SJ's size and duration should only be taken on by the most ambitious GBC, preferably with a core group of 2 or more people. I don't think a GB of your size/complexity should be undertaken lightly by anyone.

Seeing the size of those chip Group Buys, for comparison's sake it took 14 other buyers & shares purchased by myself to purchase 40 shares for a HF BabyJet in my recent GB, and it still took a lot of work behind the scenes to keep running smoothly. I'd say any new GBC should learn to walk before they run & *focus* on just one Group Buy of limited size/complexity/duration. There's a lot to be said about not fighting two or three front wars.

Be prepared to deal with distrust and a lot of time spent educating others and answering questions. Also, look at yourself honestly and ask how well you deal with customer service and teaching others.

- How will you handle concerns about BTC handling and for miner rigs: miner payouts later on ?
- Hosting details? Everyone kosher about where the hardware is going?
- How will you deal with refunds? Do you have funds set aside for this?
- Will you have co-admins in case you get hurt/incapacitated or if there's concerns about fraud?
- Are you willing to risk your time, your job and your freedom to give Group Buyers the world's best prices?

Sebastian really does offer up an epic case of group buy.  Perhaps his stress can be shown as the optimal case of a hard working GBC.. (and to be fair other big GBs for avalon like Zefeir did awesome too from my understanding... these guys know a thing or two more than me), but realistically we may never see that high of stress again.. or at least hopefully, not for awhile.  

The wait time on my group buys are usually less than a week and it's insanely stressful making sure everyone is informed... I couldn't even imagine handling a single group buy that lasted 4 months!

This is why I backed out. I decided to partner up with some gentlemen that can better handle certain aspects of the buys (admin etc) and concentrate on the hosting side- so I can concentrate at what I am good at and what others are good at, in exchange for a smaller share of the "profit" so to speak. To be honest the whole bitcoin deal is a rush for me so I am excited just to be a part of it.

Thanks for taking the time to write this up.  Some very valuable information for those who are thinking of doing this.   My hats off to you.   I think you also need to add , GB organizer must have patience of a Saint.  LOL I would tell most of the drama queens doom and gloomers to take your BTC back and  F**k off .  ;-)   Hahah Not a good trait to have for customer service.

After having experienced all this myself with only 18000 chips ordered, I second every single word of Sebastian on his post.

 

Thank you SebastianJu. I've thanked you before previously for your service (which I've never even used) and I'm thanking you again. I would add that SJ's Group Buy is a bit more ambitious then most GBs. Not every GB is going to have hundreds and hundreds of buyers to keep track of.

I would also like to add that most of the stress that took a toll on you and the other Avalon GBCs is *NOT* your fault that a formerly reputable forum member went AWOL on you guys for months. You guys went in thinking you were doing business with Dr. Jekyll and you ended up with Mr. Hyde.

Part of the risk of organizing a Group Buy is deciding *who* to organize a Group Buy FOR. This mfg? That mfg? A pool of mfgs? We all have to do our own homework & come to our own decisions with our time and our spending power. This decision could play a role into whether your GB even gets off the ground.

I, for one, will NEVER do business with BFL again or Avalon due to the words and actions of their primary stakeholders.

Also, for anyone reading this, I specialize in helping new Group Buy Coordinators succeed in completing their Group Buys. Like anyone else, I can't do much about mfg. delivery but at least I can help you succeed in ordering your equipment.

As one who was considering starting a group buy I can say this has probably saved me exponential amounts of headaches.  

I was lucky enough to ask questions before starting anything and SebastianJu is very professional and helpful.  Most group buy starters are very open and will answer questions.  As stated above these guys have to respond to hundreds of PMs a day so it may take a few days, but I have always heard back.

Keep the community and the hard work shown from the Avalon buys in mind is what I have concluded.  I may still perhaps start a group buy if the community seems to back an idea.