A little reminder why Bitcoin is necessary - page 2.

vv181

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Quote from: DanWalker on February 06, 2022, 03:09:06 PM

Quote from: vv181 on February 06, 2022, 02:53:13 PM

Quote from: TheNineClub on February 05, 2022, 05:24:05 PM

I do believe that, when more regulation comes into crypto, we might see similar fine print in some kinds of terms and conditions of BTC investing. Not the same as mentioned here, but when things get to a certain point, something needs to give, and we will see things shift a bit.

We'd already seen that kind of agreement on the Terms of services across some exchanges, even without regulation enforcement. I guess what the point of @OP trying to make is simply to tell you can own and control your own money contrary to what OP oppose which is Paypal. Now that things are completely invalid if someone uses bitcoin that is indirectly not on the users' position, like on the exchanges. So there isn't any difference if the user itself does not own any self-custody.

That's correct, But you don't have to lose your control by using exchange services. People use exchanges to store their Bitcoin cause they are in fear, who told them to use exchanges for storing bitcoin??,

Actually, they fear the sudden dump of Bitcoin, they don't have any trust on Bitcoin but they have enough trust in exchanges to store their bitcoin.
To avoid such a nasty situation you can use P2P services, most of the exchanges are offering P2P services. If you sell your bitcoin via P2P you don't have to send your bitcoin to the exchange wallet.

You are utterly losing control of your coin since the only thing you have left is a trust to those third-party. I do understand some may use exchange for a variety of purposes like trading or just withdrawing to FIAT, but to store a bitcoin on the exchange is nonsense, and I believe it would completely cease the reason as on the OP.

BIT-BENDER

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I don't use PayPal, so I really don't know how true this is, but as for Bitcoin, I believe you are safer when you own in on your private wallet, you might be into Bitcoin but have your coins on an exchange, this is still very risky, because it still not 100% yours, you can also be kicked out by this exchanges, funds stolen from this exchanges or they change their contract with you anytime they want, don't lose your guard because you feel it's safest to be in crypto-currency, they are still threats on the side be wise.

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 06, 2022, 01:09:56 PM

Quote from: AakZaki on February 06, 2022, 10:42:38 AM

Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 04, 2022, 04:41:02 PM

Most services mention that in their TOS, even those who have nothing to do with financial businesses, such as PayPal, Western Union and so on. Thus, I don't find it a reasonable argument. However, I never faced any significant issue with PayPal or eBay, on the contrary, they backed me up in a few cases of being screwed over, or when I once had my account compromised, while my family and I've been using them for over 10 years.

I don't think there's a reason to compare Bitcoin and services such as PayPal, it doesn't lead anywhere nor is it a rational comparison.

there will never be a real reason to compare Bitcoin and services with paypal, because it is irrational. Because Bitcoin and paypal services are very different. Bitcoin is decentralized whereas paypal has clear rules. the limitations provided by paypal are rules that inevitably must be followed if you want to use paypal.

Still, there are quite a few users who frequently compare cryptocurrencies with financial institutions. It's not only pointless, but incomparable. Whether we like it or not, even if Bitcoin's adoption becomes widespread, such services won't be replaced, and we'll be stuck using them no matter what. To be honest, if I'm making a purchase from a foreign country, I always use PayPal, due to their safety features.

Such arguments are invalid, especially for services that have proven their worth throughout a long time period.

Paypal has always proven its own worth that makes more people become interested in it. A payment network that lets you create a one time purchase and an easier way to make payments with your monthly bills by providing faster and more convenient services to its users. However, bitcoin on the other hand is a decentralized currency that also offers you a vast way of freedom to create purchases on the stores that accept bitcoin. Both of them have their own advantages so there is no need to compare them as people will always find them both useful and secured to use.

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Quote from: vv181 on February 06, 2022, 02:53:13 PM

Quote from: TheNineClub on February 05, 2022, 05:24:05 PM

I do believe that, when more regulation comes into crypto, we might see similar fine print in some kinds of terms and conditions of BTC investing. Not the same as mentioned here, but when things get to a certain point, something needs to give, and we will see things shift a bit.

We'd already seen that kind of agreement on the Terms of services across some exchanges, even without regulation enforcement. I guess what the point of @OP trying to make is simply to tell you can own and control your own money contrary to what OP oppose which is Paypal. Now that things are completely invalid if someone uses bitcoin that is indirectly not on the users' position, like on the exchanges. So there isn't any difference if the user itself does not own any self-custody.

That's correct, But you don't have to lose your control by using exchange services. People use exchanges to store their Bitcoin cause they are in fear, who told them to use exchanges for storing bitcoin??,

Actually, they fear the sudden dump of Bitcoin, they don't have any trust on Bitcoin but they have enough trust in exchanges to store their bitcoin.
To avoid such a nasty situation you can use P2P services, most of the exchanges are offering P2P services. If you sell your bitcoin via P2P you don't have to send your bitcoin to the exchange wallet.

vv181

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Quote from: TheNineClub on February 05, 2022, 05:24:05 PM

I do believe that, when more regulation comes into crypto, we might see similar fine print in some kinds of terms and conditions of BTC investing. Not the same as mentioned here, but when things get to a certain point, something needs to give, and we will see things shift a bit.

We'd already seen that kind of agreement on the Terms of services across some exchanges, even without regulation enforcement. I guess what the point of @OP trying to make is simply to tell you can own and control your own money contrary to what OP oppose which is Paypal. Now that things are completely invalid if someone uses bitcoin that is indirectly not on the users' position, like on the exchanges. So there isn't any difference if the user itself does not own any self-custody.

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 06, 2022, 01:09:56 PM

Quote from: AakZaki on February 06, 2022, 10:42:38 AM

Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 04, 2022, 04:41:02 PM

Most services mention that in their TOS, even those who have nothing to do with financial businesses, such as PayPal, Western Union and so on. Thus, I don't find it a reasonable argument. However, I never faced any significant issue with PayPal or eBay, on the contrary, they backed me up in a few cases of being screwed over, or when I once had my account compromised, while my family and I've been using them for over 10 years.

I don't think there's a reason to compare Bitcoin and services such as PayPal, it doesn't lead anywhere nor is it a rational comparison.

there will never be a real reason to compare Bitcoin and services with paypal, because it is irrational. Because Bitcoin and paypal services are very different. Bitcoin is decentralized whereas paypal has clear rules. the limitations provided by paypal are rules that inevitably must be followed if you want to use paypal.

Still, there are quite a few users who frequently compare cryptocurrencies with financial institutions. It's not only pointless, but incomparable. Whether we like it or not, even if Bitcoin's adoption becomes widespread, such services won't be replaced, and we'll be stuck using them no matter what. To be honest, if I'm making a purchase from a foreign country, I always use PayPal, due to their safety features.

Such arguments are invalid, especially for services that have proven their worth throughout a long time period.

If everything you guys was about what the OP pointed out, I believe there's still reason to compare Bitcoin liberation with Paypal centralized service especially now that Paypal offers Bitcoin buy/sell services to people and some crypto enthusiasts may be a victim of what the OP stated.

It is not about Paypal being a financial institution.

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Quote from: AakZaki on February 06, 2022, 10:42:38 AM

Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 04, 2022, 04:41:02 PM

Most services mention that in their TOS, even those who have nothing to do with financial businesses, such as PayPal, Western Union and so on. Thus, I don't find it a reasonable argument. However, I never faced any significant issue with PayPal or eBay, on the contrary, they backed me up in a few cases of being screwed over, or when I once had my account compromised, while my family and I've been using them for over 10 years.

I don't think there's a reason to compare Bitcoin and services such as PayPal, it doesn't lead anywhere nor is it a rational comparison.

there will never be a real reason to compare Bitcoin and services with paypal, because it is irrational. Because Bitcoin and paypal services are very different. Bitcoin is decentralized whereas paypal has clear rules. the limitations provided by paypal are rules that inevitably must be followed if you want to use paypal.

Still, there are quite a few users who frequently compare cryptocurrencies with financial institutions. It's not only pointless, but incomparable. Whether we like it or not, even if Bitcoin's adoption becomes widespread, such services won't be replaced, and we'll be stuck using them no matter what. To be honest, if I'm making a purchase from a foreign country, I always use PayPal, due to their safety features.

Such arguments are invalid, especially for services that have proven their worth throughout a long time period.

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If you don't include that in your businesses' TOS, then you're just plain dumb. The terms of service of almost any service out there requires the user to agree to this clause so that in the event that something happens, they have the rights to do something legally. Having that broad statement is a necessity if you don't want to face an expensive lawsuit (ie. having the user using their account in a way that harms your business but the narrow TOS doesn't give you the rights to stop it).

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 04, 2022, 04:41:02 PM

Most services mention that in their TOS, even those who have nothing to do with financial businesses, such as PayPal, Western Union and so on. Thus, I don't find it a reasonable argument. However, I never faced any significant issue with PayPal or eBay, on the contrary, they backed me up in a few cases of being screwed over, or when I once had my account compromised, while my family and I've been using them for over 10 years.

I don't think there's a reason to compare Bitcoin and services such as PayPal, it doesn't lead anywhere nor is it a rational comparison.

there will never be a real reason to compare Bitcoin and services with paypal, because it is irrational. Because Bitcoin and paypal services are very different. Bitcoin is decentralized whereas paypal has clear rules. the limitations provided by paypal are rules that inevitably must be followed if you want to use paypal.

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This reminds me of that South Park episode where they were all experimented on by Apple. Most people don't read ToS, that's the truth, and one day you can find out that you owe them something for years of use of their services.

As for Bitcoin, I've read so many stories here on the forum, like that one where bank did not agree to send some guys money to a casino, because it had strict policies about gambling. Gambling was legal in his country, the casino was legal, he was of legal age, it was his money, but the bank said no, you can't send your money there because we won't allow it.

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I do believe that, when more regulation comes into crypto, we might see similar fine print in some kinds of terms and conditions of BTC investing. Not the same as mentioned here, but when things get to a certain point, something needs to give, and we will see things shift a bit. I would say BTC is necessary for multiple other reasons that are important. After all, BTC and PayPal do not provide similar services so this might not be a valid comparison.

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Quote from: Japinat on February 04, 2022, 02:38:00 PM

Quote from: teosanru on February 04, 2022, 02:18:42 PM

Haha nice point, but this is obvious, Paypal is a private service owned by a set of individuals, it is allowing you to use your service for some charges. The way you have sole discretion to choose whether you want to use Paypal or not, same way they have sole discretion to decide whether to provide or stop providing your services without giving any explanation. But I've always felt comparing Paypal with bitcoin is stupidity, Bitcoin is obviously way ahead of PayPal, competition to bitcoin is fiat currency as a whole not Paypal, infact foreign or cross border remittances are difficult because of fiat in the first place.

There is always an advantage to use a currency that is decentralized because you can do whatever you want since there is no any entity that will give sanction on you. But in cases with government controlled online payment remittances, of course they will have to set rules for their clients and create agreements. Once not followed, termination will follow. Otherwise, the payment system itself will be the one to be reprimanded by the government. There will always be differences from using a decentralized system out from those centralized ones.

Centralized platforms like PayPal may have advantage for those who are dealing with fiat transactions but once these people tried to experience btc or any crypto transactions, they will find out that the fees as well as the convenience it will give to them will be appreciated. A lot are still hesitant to deal with bitcoin because they are not yet aware of what it can possibly bring to their life, if they don't know what they are dealing with, usually they won't touch it. Or some are not into crypto as payment method because they don't know where to start. I am certain, once they educate themselves about crypto, they would like it as a means of payment method regardless of the volatility factor.

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Quote from: Hispo on February 04, 2022, 08:17:43 AM

My interpretation (right or wrong): Paypal will give you the boot if they do not like you, Bitcoin embraces you.

This is the same with almost if not all the centralized service providers for crypto. That's a big part of the reason why the phrase - "Not your keys, not your crypto" is constantly being used in the space. All custodial services would always needs users to give up their right to their assets. Best thing to do is to avoid using such services. PayPal has always had the habit of seizing users funds so it's nothing new.

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Quote from: xSkylarx on February 05, 2022, 07:35:50 AM

This really hit me hard because I don't read user agreements because I think they are useless and time consuming, as others do; we just use their service and then after we get banned, we read their user agreement and figure out why we got banned. On the other hand, Bitcoin was created as an alternative payment method online because the fees were previously prohibitively high, and it also took too long to receive. This is why Bitcoin was created, and this is still its primary purpose. It is also now used as an investment.

This is a sad truth, having this negative mentality that we always regret in the end because of not exerting effort to understand in the first place. However, bitcoin and Paypal are both online payment methods but since Paypal is a centralized one, then it has its own terms for agreement that will terminate you as a member if you can't abide with it. But with bitcoin, you are given the freedom to do what you want without terms and agreement since its not backed by the government. And no one can banned you because bitcoin is not run by authorities.

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You obviously know that all 3rd party services makes use of the same kind of ToS when you breach their conditions.. right? This is applicable to Bitcoin Exchanges and Wallet providers too.

How many people do you know that are not using some kind of third party service to use their Crypto currencies? How many people run their own nodes and use Bitcoin as it should be used? So third party services in Bitcoin is just as bad as PayPal or Credit card companies... just look at Coinbase as an example. Angry

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Quote from: Japinat on February 04, 2022, 02:38:00 PM

Quote from: teosanru on February 04, 2022, 02:18:42 PM

Haha nice point, but this is obvious, Paypal is a private service owned by a set of individuals, it is allowing you to use your service for some charges. The way you have sole discretion to choose whether you want to use Paypal or not, same way they have sole discretion to decide whether to provide or stop providing your services without giving any explanation. But I've always felt comparing Paypal with bitcoin is stupidity, Bitcoin is obviously way ahead of PayPal, competition to bitcoin is fiat currency as a whole not Paypal, infact foreign or cross border remittances are difficult because of fiat in the first place.

There is always an advantage to use a currency that is decentralized because you can do whatever you want since there is no any entity that will give sanction on you. But in cases with government controlled online payment remittances, of course they will have to set rules for their clients and create agreements. Once not followed, termination will follow. Otherwise, the payment system itself will be the one to be reprimanded by the government. There will always be differences from using a decentralized system out from those centralized ones.

Obviously yes but my point is that the fight of bitcoin or the competition of bitcoin isn't these payment partners or companies, the prime competitors of bitcoin are the fiat currencies themselves. If we want to stop using centralized government-controlled payment networks, then idea is to drop Fiat altogether and only then we will be able to succeed.

Quote from: DanWalker on February 05, 2022, 10:10:15 AM

All the companies in the world have their own rules & condition, if you break those they will ban you, this is normal.
So, Bitcoin is best for those who do not like to keep their money unprotected.
But you know, PayPal is great for those who have low knowledge of technology and want to work in a simple way, till now many people don't know how to use non-custodial wallets properly, they don't know the importance of private key.
Even if their property is not protected in the custodial wallet, it is still easy to use for them.

It just takes you 15 minutes to understand how a private key wallet works and how important are your private keys. If you compare it with Paypal I see almost zero difference in difficulty level of both the technologies, if you don't want to get into network fees management and all, sending, receiving and maintaining bitcoin is really easy to understand.

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PayPal can do a lot, and many centralized companies do the same, but Bitcoin's a solution only if it's used properly, storing one's own private key and avoiding centralized services like custodial wallets, crypto exchanges etc. In fact, PayPal itself offering storing Bitcoin in the US if I'm not mistaken, so people can use it and store it this way, not really noticing the difference. And, unfortunately, I think mass adoption of cryptos is going to rely on centralization. It'll rely on custodial wallets, like in El Salvador; on big exchanges forcing KYC and reserving many rights, like Binance; using centralized payment systems, like Bitpay. Having something under one's own control and thus one's own responsibility isn't for everyone.

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All the companies in the world have their own rules & condition, if you break those they will ban you, this is normal.
So, Bitcoin is best for those who do not like to keep their money unprotected.
But you know, PayPal is great for those who have low knowledge of technology and want to work in a simple way, till now many people don't know how to use non-custodial wallets properly, they don't know the importance of private key.
Even if their property is not protected in the custodial wallet, it is still easy to use for them.

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This really hit me hard because I don't read user agreements because I think they are useless and time consuming, as others do; we just use their service and then after we get banned, we read their user agreement and figure out why we got banned. On the other hand, Bitcoin was created as an alternative payment method online because the fees were previously prohibitively high, and it also took too long to receive. This is why Bitcoin was created, and this is still its primary purpose. It is also now used as an investment.

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Quote from: lixer on February 05, 2022, 01:26:54 AM

Quote from: adzino on February 05, 2022, 12:40:19 AM

how does bitcoin help in cases like this? Terms and conditions like this exists almost everywhere. They can change or terminate the Terms of service anytime they want. They are not bound to keep it the same nor are they forced to inform their users when the terms and conditions changes (but almost all platforms do notify their users out of goodwill). If a platform doesn't like you they can give you the "boot" if they want. Lets say you want to buy something from a crypto store. You make a deposit or make the payment. The online crypto store doesn't like you and bans your account as per their ToS. You lose your coins. Bitcoin couldn't protect you from events like this. Plan to do a p2p transaction then? You send the money, the person doesn't like you, he scams you. You can't do anything about that.

This was only a miss interpretation. They cant ban someone just because they do not like the person and what is their basis on why they do not like that person? Because, their profile picture is ugly? No, but they will only ban you once you have done something that are against their rules. Let us not be paranoid because we are going to be just fine as long as you are following their basic rules and your not doing shady things

OP compares btc to paypal because btc has no central authority while paypal was owned by a team or a group of people and they can do whatever they want with your funds but the situation still depends and you already explained that in more elaborated manner.

That's correct, you'll be fine provided that you don't break their terms of services. They won't plain block you for no reason, unless they suspect you for suspicious/shady activities. I don't get why there are people comparing a service to Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies in general, it's not something to be compared. I've been using PayPal for years, and it's been great. Their support was decent and fast most of the time, while I found it very convenient to use.

On the downside, their fees, especially on eBay are quite high, but nevertheless, it's providing you with a great service from which I've made a decent amount of money, selling items.

Topic: A little reminder why Bitcoin is necessary - page 2. (Read 621 times)