A new idea for bitcoin markets - page 2.

mobile4ever

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Quote from: markm on February 21, 2013, 08:44:01 AM

You are proposing to sell income-earning / money-making "assets"? In short, "investments" or "business opportunities"?

Or is it just that by using an affiliate scheme, maybe even a multi-level structure of affiliates, you hope to attract affiliates who will try to earn money by selling your idea/product?

-MarkM-

No, I am not selling anything. I am looking for people who believe like I do, in freedom and decentralization of bitcoin markets. As a benefit they can have a business asset for themselves. I am definitely not a salesman, but this is a great idea.

Edit:

I am creating a system that decentralizes bitcoin markets and will be duplicatable by anyone without them having to know how to code. The side benefit of the decentralization is that the people who duplicate it will have a steady source of income.

I am making one for my own area just as soon as I can.

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You are proposing to sell income-earning / money-making "assets"? In short, "investments" or "business opportunities"?

Or is it just that by using an affiliate scheme, maybe even a multi-level structure of affiliates, you hope to attract affiliates who will try to earn money by selling your idea/product?

-MarkM-

mobile4ever

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Quote from: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 07:27:01 PM

Colored coins are very similar to you taking a 1 USD bill, noting down the serial number and stating that you personally consider this as a "special" 1 USD bill and will hand anyone who gives it back to you 100 USD. Then you sell it for some money.

This has the exact same issues as with colored coins. You might have a "special bill" right now in your back pocket but as long as you don't know about the guy who hands you 100 USD for it, you'll still value it at 1 USD (everybody else will too). Also even if you manage to find about this, buy the special 1 USD bill for 90 USD and go to that guy he might rather ruin his reputation and claim that this was just a joke, you're stupid for paying 90 USD for 1 USD bill and if you have a problem with that you're free to sue him. In $remote_country.

From your question (assuming that you can physically color a virtual item) I still deduct that you still high on whatever it is you consumed that made you come up with this thread.

Hmmm... maybe I am high on colors?

Sukrim

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Colored coins are very similar to you taking a 1 USD bill, noting down the serial number and stating that you personally consider this as a "special" 1 USD bill and will hand anyone who gives it back to you 100 USD. Then you sell it for some money.

This has the exact same issues as with colored coins. You might have a "special bill" right now in your back pocket but as long as you don't know about the guy who hands you 100 USD for it, you'll still value it at 1 USD (everybody else will too). Also even if you manage to find about this, buy the special 1 USD bill for 90 USD and go to that guy he might rather ruin his reputation and claim that this was just a joke, you're stupid for paying 90 USD for 1 USD bill and if you have a problem with that you're free to sue him. In $remote_country.

From your question (assuming that you can physically color a virtual item) I still deduct that you still high on whatever it is you consumed that made you come up with this thread.

mobile4ever

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Quote from: dacoinminster on February 20, 2013, 06:40:11 PM

bitcoinx.org does decentralized exchanges between bitcoins and "colored coins" which are bitcoins with additional meaning. Eventually they will have coins with the color "USD" which solves a piece of the problem if they are successful.

Good luck on your project. Anybody making it easier to buy and sell bitcoins is ok in my book!

Thanks! I think something needs to be done quickly, before the dollar goes down. The colored coins you are talking about are physically colored?

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bitcoinx.org does decentralized exchanges between bitcoins and "colored coins" which are bitcoins with additional meaning. Eventually they will have coins with the color "USD" which solves a piece of the problem if they are successful.

Good luck on your project. Anybody making it easier to buy and sell bitcoins is ok in my book!

mobile4ever

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Quote from: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 06:26:10 PM

You still didn't clearly state how anyone will make any profit on your platform specifically that makes it different from just speculating on any exchange.
Also your weird habit of marking random words in yellow and white is highly annoying.

I'm outta here, maybe I'll check later if your trip has ended or if you're still writing incoherently, quoting incorrectly and ignoring existing platforms.

Thanks. Sorry you were annoyed by the colors. If others dont like it, I will stop.

I realized it is self-perpetuating by the webhosting. I have made a forum to explain more but really I am seeking people who believe what I believe. The details can be hammered out, like Ripple is probably doing.

Sukrim

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You still didn't clearly state how anyone will make any profit on your platform specifically that makes it different from just speculating on any exchange.
Also your weird habit of marking random words in yellow and white is highly annoying.

I'm outta here, maybe I'll check later if your trip has ended or if you're still writing incoherently, quoting incorrectly and ignoring existing platforms.

mobile4ever

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Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on February 20, 2013, 05:57:20 PM

People don't need help, they need markets and thus, speculation. Be taking the market competitiveness out of the equation (and thus the cooperative communication/speculation of desired prices and worth), you're basically stranding any buyers/sellers to an island community situation where someone would sell a shell for $100, only to return to the real world and realize the shell is worth $0.01 USD.

That part (the speculation) will be seen at the hub. Isnt this the target of thieves on most "markets"? I am also providing a source of passive income. For those who buy anything at the beginning of a "bubble" ( the early adopters) they come out ahead. Those who first bought bitcoins are that way today. This is a growing technology that I believe will be a household term soon. We are the "early adopters". The goal is to make this local, so your shell example does not apply.

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Also, referring to the forum for information would be a form of *centralization*. What do you people use without the forum? Now you see what this other individual is talking about when he refers to this problem as a "holy grail". It is something the newest Ripple implementation was designed to provide, unfortunately they have a problem with potentially harboring more scammers than Bitcoin ever has so long as they avoid vetting their gateways.

You may be right there. No problem. Free forum software is already provided by webhosts. One click and ... you have your own.

I went and saw the thread:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1543739

About Ripple; They have a new product... I think they can improve it, as with anything. If it decentralizes and frees, I am for it.

mobile4ever

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Quote from: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 05:48:27 PM

Then it is even worse than bitmarket.eu (who at least hold BTC in escrow) and is not really an "exchange" but just a platform to put up suggested offers that might be filled or not. Depending on external factors (MtGox) and who sends first (remember: BTC transactions are IRREVERSIBLE!) sellers or buyers scam each other into oblivion.

Its every man and woman for themselves in this world. Forming groups may be good for those who feel vulnerable. But decentralization brings a freedom that comes from the way we are created; "free and independent". Humans have a propensity to abuse power once too much is given to them. Its a large subject to address, but its better to have problems associated with too much freedom than to have problems associated with too little freedom.

Quote from: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 05:48:27 PM

I wasn't asking you to enforce fiat transactions, I wanted to know if you devised a system to make sure fiat transactions are not reversed.

No, but if it needs to become an option or feature, it can be included later.

Quote from: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 05:48:27 PM

Your excuse seems to be "if you are scammed by someone, that's your problem - you should have looked at user ratings" - guess what, even pirateat40 had hugely positive OTC ratings, on SilkRoad a highly rated/trusted dealer decided to suddenly disappear with a lot of BTC and if there's even the possibility a trusted trader could loose access to his/her account and someone else makes offers for them...

I believe that the scammers showed how strong the idea behind bitcoin really is. There will always be people who are scammed, whatever systems are put into place. Have you ever thought on this?:

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools." ~ Herbert Spencer

Quote from: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 05:48:27 PM

Sorry, but if that's really all you propose (platform for offers), then there are already existing and better options out there. I hoped you came up with a better solution, but it looks like a no so far to me.

I dont know if you saw this yet:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1543784

but this system also gives people an asset, something that puts money into their pocket whether they work or not.

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Quote from: mobile4ever on February 20, 2013, 05:53:18 PM

if people need help,..

People don't need help, they need markets and thus, speculation. Be taking the market competitiveness out of the equation (and thus the cooperative communication/speculation of desired prices and worth), you're basically stranding any buyers/sellers to an island community situation where someone would sell a shell for $100, only to return to the real world and realize the shell is worth $0.01 USD.

Also, referring to the forum for information would be a form of *centralization*. What do you people use without the forum? Now you see what this other individual is talking about when he refers to this problem as a "holy grail". It is something the newest Ripple implementation was designed to provide, unfortunately they have a problem with potentially harboring more scammers than Bitcoin ever has so long as they avoid vetting their gateways.

mobile4ever

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Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on February 20, 2013, 05:43:23 PM

Forgive me if I'm off base here, but *total freedom* as you're describing it sounds like *pricing chaos* to me.

I believe people can make up their own minds on what they want to pay. For me, "haggling" for a price is envigorating.

But... if people need help, there is always this forum to turn to.

Sukrim

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Then it is even worse than bitmarket.eu (who at least hold BTC in escrow) and is not really an "exchange" but just a platform to put up suggested offers that might be filled or not. Depending on external factors (MtGox) and who sends first (remember: BTC transactions are IRREVERSIBLE!) sellers or buyers scam each other into oblivion.

I wasn't asking you to enforce fiat transactions, I wanted to know if you devised a system to make sure fiat transactions are not reversed. Your excuse seems to be "if you are scammed by someone, that's your problem - you should have looked at user ratings" - guess what, even pirateat40 had hugely positive OTC ratings, on SilkRoad a highly rated/trusted dealer decided to suddenly disappear with a lot of BTC and if there's even the possibility a trusted trader could loose access to his/her account and someone else makes offers for them...

Sorry, but if that's really all you propose (platform for offers), then there are already existing and better options out there. I hoped you came up with a better solution, but it looks like a no so far to me.

mobile4ever

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on February 20, 2013, 05:40:34 PM

You have the right idea, sadly not at the right time (yet).

There won't be anything else than hostility you earn for the proposal.

I dont feel so sad.

At this time so many people are unemployed that there is no way they will avoid this system. Having an asset that puts money in your pocket whether a person works or not is too attractive to resist. Excuse me for saying so, but this seems to be the perfect time, thanks to the fall of the dollar and high unemployment.

Matthew N. Wright

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Forgive me if I'm off base here, but *total freedom* as you're describing it sounds like *pricing chaos* to me.

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You have the right idea, sadly not at the right time (yet).

There won't be anything else than hostility you earn for the proposal.

mobile4ever

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Quote from: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 05:19:15 PM

How will you enforce a fiat transaction?

The deals are personal. I will not be personally (if the question was directed to me) enforcing anything. It is a personal transaction between the owner of the web site and the person interested in interchanging something, whether it be currency or goods and services. Since it is a local deal, the interstate commerce thing as well as the international laws are moot.

Quote from: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 05:19:15 PM

Say I sell 1 BTC for 30 USD, suddenly the MtGox price crashes and BTC is at 10 USD/BTC - how do you ensure I still get the 30 USD somebody has committed to?

Again its a personal deal, like in the offline world. It is not going to be connected to outside influences.

Quote from: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 05:19:15 PM

To me the small hints you gave seem like a "mobile"(?!) version of bitmarket.eu or similar, where you can put up offers that might be taken or not - but every time the BTC prices fall there are lots of problems with people not doing the fiat transaction. On the other hand, if you don't even hold BTC in escrow, as long as the rate goes up it makes sense for sellers not to send the BTC they promised but rather to re-sell them at higher prices.

If there is going to be a terms page on the hub site, it will say that people take responsibility for their own interchanges.

Quote from: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 05:19:15 PM

Regulatory issues come into place once you start to create something that is 1:1 pegged to a fiat currency and can be redeemed in fiat again. This is the main difference to gift certificates (e.g. iTunes gift cards). Yes, of course sometimes it might be possible to get money back on a gift card too, but in general Apple does NOT guarantee you that you can just show up with 5000€ of iTunes gift cards and demand 10 500€ bills. With e-money on the other hand, you could do that.

Nothing is pegged to anything, as all interactions are done "person to person". Its total freedom. It does not involve gift cards, just regular digital data running through the internet. HTML, PHP and perhaps Javascript which are all "open" technologies, are the powering influence.

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How will you enforce a fiat transaction? Say I sell 1 BTC for 30 USD, suddenly the MtGox price crashes and BTC is at 10 USD/BTC - how do you ensure I still get the 30 USD somebody has committed to?

To me the small hints you gave seem like a "mobile"(?!) version of bitmarket.eu or similar, where you can put up offers that might be taken or not - but every time the BTC prices fall there are lots of problems with people not doing the fiat transaction. On the other hand, if you don't even hold BTC in escrow, as long as the rate goes up it makes sense for sellers not to send the BTC they promised but rather to re-sell them at higher prices.

Regulatory issues come into place once you start to create something that is 1:1 pegged to a fiat currency and can be redeemed in fiat again. This is the main difference to gift certificates (e.g. iTunes gift cards). Yes, of course sometimes it might be possible to get money back on a gift card too, but in general Apple does NOT guarantee you that you can just show up with 5000€ of iTunes gift cards and demand 10 500€ bills. With e-money on the other hand, you could do that.

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Quote from: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 04:32:26 PM

Quote from: Spekulatius on February 20, 2013, 02:02:50 PM

A decentralized GLBSE or MtGox, many times people discussed this hear. It has become some kind of Holy Grail for the developing crowd but no one yet had a conclusive idea how to solve the complex batch of problems that goes with it AFAIK.

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Most issues are regulatory I guess -

if it is possible to register an official e-money issuer that is allowed to receive e.g. EUR and hand out Bitcoin-style (blockchain, scripts etc.) "Eurocoins", there is already a suggestion by Mike Hearn on how to shape transactions in Bitcoin and Eurocoin that could be used as decentralized exchange. The centralized element would then be only the Eurocoin issuer (in any exchange scenario you'd have someone you need to trust, because fiat transactions are not enforcable by you without a lawyer...) but NOT the Eurocoin holder whom you are exchanging to. E-money issuers are not allowed to do fractional reserve, so there's low risk on that front.

Usually the issue is on fiat side and how to enforce anything there - either by involving a 3rd party (e.g. MtGox), a WoT (BTC-OTC) or a combination of both (Ripple). To have a decentralized exchange you don't just need to "revolutionize money", you need some new/unique/special ways on how to deal with fiat money as well!

All is done as personally as possible, the third party will be the hub itself, which has no money inside. The exchange rates will always be changing, but an API from somewhere similar to xe.com would do good for everyone to keep up to date.

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Most issues are regulatory I guess -

The ßitcoin hub will not actually be doing any transactions. Plus, the system will be localized to their own areas of the world. Doesnt that take care of a lot of regulations? (No transactions over borders.)

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Quote from: Spekulatius on February 20, 2013, 02:02:50 PM

A decentralized GLBSE or MtGox, many times people discussed this hear. It has become some kind of Holy Grail for the developing crowd but no one yet had a conclusive idea how to solve the complex batch of problems that goes with it AFAIK.

Most issues are regulatory I guess - if it is possible to register an official e-money issuer that is allowed to receive e.g. EUR and hand out Bitcoin-style (blockchain, scripts etc.) "Eurocoins", there is already a suggestion by Mike Hearn on how to shape transactions in Bitcoin and Eurocoin that could be used as decentralized exchange. The centralized element would then be only the Eurocoin issuer (in any exchange scenario you'd have someone you need to trust, because fiat transactions are not enforcable by you without a lawyer...) but NOT the Eurocoin holder whom you are exchanging to. E-money issuers are not allowed to do fractional reserve, so there's low risk on that front.

Usually the issue is on fiat side and how to enforce anything there - either by involving a 3rd party (e.g. MtGox), a WoT (BTC-OTC) or a combination of both (Ripple). To have a decentralized exchange you don't just need to "revolutionize money", you need some new/unique/special ways on how to deal with fiat money as well!

Topic: A new idea for bitcoin markets - page 2. (Read 5649 times)