A proposed solution to adjust for lost Bitcoins: wallet 'heartbeats' - page 2.

Gavin Andresen

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Quote from: DeepBit on April 08, 2012, 01:25:37 PM

Quote from: Gavin Andresen on April 08, 2012, 10:13:58 AM

Extending Bitcoin to new and wonderful types of transactions is fine, and, actually, I believe Therilith could build most of what he wants on top of Bitcoin

I don't think you are interested in wonderful types of transactions, may be even the opposite.
Now the rules are more strict and inputs are being checked for being standard too Sad

We had the chance to enable more opcodes inside P2SH, but it didn't happened...

Write up a proposal, start experimenting on testnet, recruit people to think really hard about how whether or not what you're proposing could be abused to compromise security or could make a denial-of-service attack easier...

I'm against changes that might make Bitcoin a tiny bit better, but if you've got a well-thought-out proposal for how to make Bitcoin much better in some way then I'll help you argue for it.

DeepBit

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Quote from: Gavin Andresen on April 08, 2012, 10:13:58 AM

Extending Bitcoin to new and wonderful types of transactions is fine, and, actually, I believe Therilith could build most of what he wants on top of Bitcoin

I don't think you are interested in wonderful types of transactions, may be even the opposite.
Now the rules are more strict and inputs are being checked for being standard too :(

We had the chance to enable more opcodes inside P2SH, but it didn't happened...

Gavin Andresen

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Quote from: DeepBit on April 07, 2012, 12:31:08 PM

Don't worry, they don't have any chance to win

+1

Personally, I consider the coin creation function (50 BTC every 10 minutes, halving every 4 years) and rules for whether or not you can spend the coins you have (if, and only if, you can satisfy the scriptPubKey by creating an ECDSA signature then you can spend them) sacrosanct. Them's the rules of Bitcoin, change them and it ain't Bitcoin any more.

Extending Bitcoin to new and wonderful types of transactions is fine, and, actually, I believe Therilith could build most of what he wants on top of Bitcoin using pre-signed fee-only non-final transactions with a lockTime 10 years in the future.

Convincing people to agree to do that would be another thing all together...

Therilith

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Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on April 07, 2012, 03:10:58 PM

Quote from: Therilith on April 07, 2012, 01:15:51 PM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on April 07, 2012, 12:24:58 PM

I seriously invite all those who want change the rules to make their own currency.

(In case that was directed, in part, at the proposed solutions to the uncertainty/massive overnight inflation problem:)
Do you seriously think that a fork that introduces short term (mostly emotional) discomfort to solve a potential long term problem would have any chance of catching on?

Yes, I seriously believe that when you make something good, and it is free and open source, people will come and support you.
That is the way Free Software works, it always has been this way since the dawn of GPL and Linux. This time is not different.

So just make a better currency, advertise it, publish a whitepaper like Satoshi did, and repeat the success of Bitcoin. If your conception is worth it, people will follow. It is that simple.

But perhaps the problem is, that the conception is not worth it, and this is why stealing other people's money through "wallet heartbeats" or some inflationary bullshit will fail.

You seem to have missed something important: A great many people are myopic gits. If you want to create a stable system with a large user base, it has to be myopic git-proof.

I suppose gmaxwells idea (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.267555) would actually be a better solution. If you leave a pile of money lying around in a crowded mall completely unguarded where anyone can see and take it, you can't reasonable expect it to still be there when you get back.

Oh, and some obligatory sarcasm:
You want P2SH? Create a new currency and convince people to reprogram their apps, transfer their money and start over from scratch trying to promote it to the public.

Quote from: RodeoX on April 07, 2012, 07:13:34 PM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on April 07, 2012, 12:24:58 PM

...The moment someone starts to mess with my savings, I'm leaving this boat - and so will do many big players...

Yep. I would sell my BTC that day and move on to real estate, art, and my angel investing efforts.

How dare people try to keep everybody's money from becoming worthless!
Seriously, if you don't think there's a problem, explain why. If you have a better solution, explain it.
So far the only argument you've come up with is "Nu-uh!"

RodeoX

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Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on April 07, 2012, 12:24:58 PM

...The moment someone starts to mess with my savings, I'm leaving this boat - and so will do many big players...

Yep. I would sell my BTC that day and move on to real estate, art, and my angel investing efforts.

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: Therilith on April 07, 2012, 01:15:51 PM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on April 07, 2012, 12:24:58 PM

I seriously invite all those who want change the rules to make their own currency.

(In case that was directed, in part, at the proposed solutions to the uncertainty/massive overnight inflation problem:)
Do you seriously think that a fork that introduces short term (mostly emotional) discomfort to solve a potential long term problem would have any chance of catching on?

Yes, I seriously believe that when you make something good, and it is free and open source, people will come and support you.
That is the way Free Software works, it always has been this way since the dawn of GPL and Linux. This time is not different.

So just make a better currency, advertise it, publish a whitepaper like Satoshi did, and repeat the success of Bitcoin. If your conception is worth it, people will follow. It is that simple.

But perhaps the problem is, that the conception is not worth it, and this is why stealing other people's money through "wallet heartbeats" or some inflationary bullshit will fail.

Therilith

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Quote from: Gabi on April 07, 2012, 12:08:37 PM

Voting no at all.

Seriously people, stop trying to mess with people savings. We want bitcoin because it give us sovereignty on money, and you propose to happily remove that exact thing? No.

So you'd rather have absolute control of worthless money than slightly less than absolute control of valuable and useful money?
I'm not saying that this problem is inevitable or, if it occurs, fatal, but your post is just such a laughable oversimplification...
Besides, you would still be just as sovereign as you are with regards to any other kind of property.

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on April 07, 2012, 12:24:58 PM

I seriously invite all those who want change the rules to make their own currency.

(In case that was directed, in part, at the proposed solutions to the uncertainty/massive overnight inflation problem:)
Do you seriously think that a fork that introduces short term (mostly emotional) discomfort to solve a potential long term problem would have any chance of catching on?
Believe me, I'd love to live in a world where that was the case, but I don't. And neither do you.

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: DeepBit on April 07, 2012, 12:31:08 PM

Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on April 07, 2012, 12:24:58 PM

Quote from: Gabi on April 07, 2012, 12:08:37 PM

Voting no at all.

Seriously people, stop trying to mess with people savings. We want bitcoin because it give us sovereignty on money, and you propose to happily remove that exact thing? No.

The moment someone starts to mess with my savings, I'm leaving this boat - and so will do many big players (Assuming of course that chain split wouldn't occur first).

Don't worry, they don't have any chance to win

I am pretty sure they don't.

However I am also assuming that CIA/FBI/Political Establishments/Whatever already have agents on the forum (after all they openly admitted their interests in Bitcoin) who will (probably) use every occasion to spread FUD, misinformation & propaganda.

You never know who are you talking to or how many of them is already here. So it is important to stop inflationist lies sooner than later.

DeepBit

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Quote from: ShadowOfHarbringer on April 07, 2012, 12:24:58 PM

Quote from: Gabi on April 07, 2012, 12:08:37 PM

Voting no at all.

Seriously people, stop trying to mess with people savings. We want bitcoin because it give us sovereignty on money, and you propose to happily remove that exact thing? No.

The moment someone starts to mess with my savings, I'm leaving this boat - and so will do many big players (Assuming of course that chain split wouldn't occur first).

Don't worry, they don't have any chance to win :)

ShadowOfHarbringer

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Quote from: Gabi on April 07, 2012, 12:08:37 PM

Voting no at all.

Seriously people, stop trying to mess with people savings. We want bitcoin because it give us sovereignty on money, and you propose to happily remove that exact thing? No.

+∞

The moment someone starts to mess with my savings, I'm leaving this boat - and so will do many big players (Assuming of course that chain split wouldn't occur first).

I seriously invite all those who want change the rules to make their own currency. I actually think there is a need for another inflata-coin in parallel to normal Bitcoin. But chainging the rules of this environment is absolutely out of the question.

Gabi

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If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat

Voting no at all.

Seriously people, stop trying to mess with people savings. We want bitcoin because it give us sovereignty on money, and you propose to happily remove that exact thing? No.

cunicula

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Quote from: Therilith on April 07, 2012, 11:20:36 AM

Quote from: cunicula on April 07, 2012, 11:05:22 AM

I assumed that you would understand Chinese based on the "very pornographic very violent" next to your name.

Nah, it became a pretty famous internet meme a few years ago.

Quote from: cunicula on April 07, 2012, 11:05:22 AM

More seriously, making these points...., you must be joking, right?

Do you have an objection to the points I've made? If so, feel free to post it.
Keep in mind though that the numbers in my post were just examples.

I have no objection. It is certainly possible (though highly improbable) for the scenario you describe to occur.
It just seems to me to be a very strange thing to be worried about, so I wanted to know if you were joking or not. Now I know.

Therilith

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Quote from: cunicula on April 07, 2012, 11:05:22 AM

I assumed that you would understand Chinese based on the "very pornographic very violent" next to your name.

Nah, it became a pretty famous internet meme a few years ago.

Quote from: cunicula on April 07, 2012, 11:05:22 AM

More seriously, making these points...., you must be joking, right?

Do you have an objection to the points I've made? If so, feel free to post it.
Keep in mind though that the numbers in my post were just examples.

cunicula

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Quote from: Therilith on April 07, 2012, 10:59:55 AM

Quote from: cunicula on April 07, 2012, 10:46:49 AM

你开玩笑吧。这样很黄很暴力的笑话是不应该的。

Nyyn iv onea v Ohyyreola

Sorry, I don't understand 'Scandanavian'. I wrote "you must be joking. This type of very pornographic and very violent joke should not be made." I assumed that you would understand Chinese based on the "very pornographic very violent" next to your name. More seriously, making these points...., you must be joking, right?

Therilith

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Quote from: cunicula on April 07, 2012, 10:46:49 AM

你开玩笑吧。这样很黄很暴力的笑话是不应该的。

Nyyn iv onea v Ohyyreola ine rgg Vyyhzvangvrkcrevzrag.

cunicula

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Quote from: Therilith on April 07, 2012, 10:40:27 AM

Pretty much. Or, to be more specific, a situation where the entire economy (pretty unlikely, but the problem would still be there with less than 100% adoption) is running on some relatively small part of the "original" 21m BTC (let's say 100,000) and somebody finds an old wallet containing 50,000 BTC from the olden days.
This would not only cause a huge mess if it happened, the very fact that it might happen could prevent Bitcoin from catching on.

你开玩笑吧。这样很黄很暴力的笑话是不应该的。

Therilith

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Quote from: DeepBit on April 07, 2012, 09:21:16 AM

Quote from: Therilith on April 07, 2012, 03:40:08 AM

Let's make sure we're on the same page here:
If you disagree with me, please describe the problem you think I'm talking about.
I'm not asking for a detailed analysis, just a few sentences describing it.

You are possibly talking about the situation when lost wallet is found when BTC price become many times higher.

Pretty much. Or, to be more specific, a situation where the entire economy (pretty unlikely, but the problem would still be there with less than 100% adoption) is running on some relatively small part of the "original" 21m BTC (let's say 100,000) and somebody finds an old wallet containing 50,000 BTC from the olden days.
This would not only cause a huge mess if it happened, the very fact that it might happen could prevent Bitcoin from catching on.

You haven't really addressed that specific problem.

Quote from: DeepBit on April 07, 2012, 09:21:16 AM

And remember that it's a punishment, not a vacation.

Decent healthcare and some contact with the outside world would hardly make it a vacation.

DeepBit

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Quote from: Therilith on April 07, 2012, 03:40:08 AM

Quote from: DeepBit on April 06, 2012, 12:11:46 PM

Quote from: Therilith on April 06, 2012, 11:56:35 AM

Prisoners don't have access to computers?

Looks like you are living in a very strange country :)
Average prisoner don't have even a phone, decent food or good healthcare.

And I'm the one living in a strange country?

Yes. I'm talking about average prisoners. This may be not a good thing, but that's how it works now. SOME may have it, but most don't.
And remember that it's a punishment, not a vacation.

Quote from: Therilith on April 07, 2012, 03:40:08 AM

Let's make sure we're on the same page here:
If you disagree with me, please describe the problem you think I'm talking about.
I'm not asking for a detailed analysis, just a few sentences describing it.

You are possibly talking about the situation when lost wallet is found when BTC price become many times higher.

Realpra

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Ok so the problem with instability in case a wallet is found:

My theory goes like this; if some number of BTC are in circulation, some percentage will be lost due to various human and software errors.

If the value of BTC go down, more coins will be lost as people become more careless with them.

If we set the block reward to a certain amount forever, then the value would eventually stabilize; if it drops in value more are lost and if it rises less is lost and thus more accumulated - assuming steady state economy; the value may stay high in a growing economy.

Of course this poses a problem in that many like BTC specifically because it will never inflate:
Even if people loose coins, if you keep creating them people will at some point begin to generate lost addresses with coins on them.

There is also another point to consider: How to distinguish between "treasure" addresses and a rich guy? Impossible.

A final thing; the dump may not be as catastrophic as could be feared - while it may pose a big chunk of total value it may not be a big chunk of the total transaction volume.

Anyway if it becomes a problem I think future users should solve it, not us - likely by raising the block reward to a permanent 1 satoshi.

Therilith

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on April 06, 2012, 12:05:01 PM

It isn't a problem, it will never be a problem. The entire global economy could function on 1 BTC.

Quote from: DeepBit on April 06, 2012, 12:11:46 PM

There are no problems with lost coins. And there will be no problems with it.

Quote from: DeepBit on April 06, 2012, 12:11:46 PM

This currency is designed to work fine even if 90-99% of coins are lost.

Holy hell, did either of you actually read the rest of the thread?
To quote the wise and benevolent Therilith:

Quote from: Therilith on April 06, 2012, 11:56:35 AM

(If you intend to post in this freshly resurrected thread, please read the whole thing first. The potential problem being discussed isn't entirely clear in the first few pages.)

Say it with me:
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LOST COINS CAUSING PROBLEMS SIMPLY BY BEING LOST. DIVISIBILITY DOES NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM DISCUSSED IN THE JUNE 2011 PART OF THIS THREAD (y'know, the one I was referring to when I mentioned the OP)!

Quote from: DeepBit on April 06, 2012, 12:11:46 PM

Quote from: Therilith on April 06, 2012, 11:56:35 AM

Prisoners don't have access to computers?

Looks like you are living in a very strange country

Average prisoner don't have even a phone, decent food or good healthcare.

And I'm the one living in a strange country?

Quote from: DeepBit on April 06, 2012, 12:11:46 PM

Quote from: Therilith on April 06, 2012, 11:56:35 AM

No more than the government reclaiming a plot of land from somebody who's been missing for the last 100 years.

In many parts of the world leaving "lost" land as is may me bad, but no one will be hurt by "lost" bitcoins.

Or will they? Find out in the first part of this thread. The answer may surprise you.

Let's make sure we're on the same page here:
If you disagree with me, please describe the problem you think I'm talking about.
I'm not asking for a detailed analysis, just a few sentences describing it.

Topic: A proposed solution to adjust for lost Bitcoins: wallet 'heartbeats' - page 2. (Read 12205 times)