Topic: A "real" Bitcoin (Read 11530 times)
Very nice!
I know this thread is old, but I just go through reading it and thought some of you might be interested in the physical bitcoins I've manufactured.
http://CoinedBits.com
http://CoinedBits.com
The token could freely disclose its public address for independent confirmation of the balance.(edit: it could also freely provide a 0 BTC sample transaction to prove it had the matching private key) However if you have internet access at the time of the transaction to confirm the balance there are probably better ways to transfer bitcoins than transfer of a physical object.
For simplicity of hardware the token would probably have a fixed face value in bitcoins and the indicator would just be a yes/no for the security of that balance, that could just be a led that lights red or green when a button on the token is pressed.
For simplicity of hardware the token would probably have a fixed face value in bitcoins and the indicator would just be a yes/no for the security of that balance, that could just be a led that lights red or green when a button on the token is pressed.
The token would have the only copy of the private key and not disclose it for any reason. If you wanted to remove the bitcoins you would send a receiving address to the token and it would return a transaction you could send to the network. At this point the token would assume that the balance was gone and change the built in indicator to show this. That way someone could not pass of the token as still having value.
For reloading you would have the token generate a new private key and send coins to its public address. Then once that was confirmed by the block chain you could go to a kiosk owned by the token manufacturer and reset the indicator to show that the balance was present.
This would allow you to be certain of the value of the token without any connection to the bitcoin network.
For reloading you would have the token generate a new private key and send coins to its public address. Then once that was confirmed by the block chain you could go to a kiosk owned by the token manufacturer and reset the indicator to show that the balance was present.
This would allow you to be certain of the value of the token without any connection to the bitcoin network.
I still don't see why a token needs to be told its value, except perhaps at the moment you're asking it to sign a transaction.
If you're sending it an address to remove the bitcoins, why can't the amount be sent at this time?
If you need a reader to read out the fact that the token has any given balance, couldn't that same reader just tell from the block chain? It would be more accurate that way.
Unless someone wants to make a closed proprietary system like Visa, and implement "security by obscurity" like the satellite companies do (which are constantly getting hacked), such a "token" would most likely be an industry standard smart card - which could be programmed to do anything, like lie about its balance. I wouldn't consider it secure to believe a token that self-reports its own balance. It is best if the smart card is "trusted" only to keep secrets, not to tell the truth.
If you want to experiment with smart cards - consider basiccard.com - which looks like an entry level system for user-programmable smart cards.
The token would have the only copy of the private key and not disclose it for any reason. If you wanted to remove the bitcoins you would send a receiving address to the token and it would return a transaction you could send to the network. At this point the token would assume that the balance was gone and change the built in indicator to show this. That way someone could not pass of the token as still having value.
For reloading you would have the token generate a new private key and send coins to its public address. Then once that was confirmed by the block chain you could go to a kiosk owned by the token manufacturer and reset the indicator to show that the balance was present.
This would allow you to be certain of the value of the token without any connection to the bitcoin network.
For reloading you would have the token generate a new private key and send coins to its public address. Then once that was confirmed by the block chain you could go to a kiosk owned by the token manufacturer and reset the indicator to show that the balance was present.
This would allow you to be certain of the value of the token without any connection to the bitcoin network.
The token itself doesn't necessarily need access to the block chain, as long as it can be stuck into a reader that can perform these functions and has access to the block chain. (e.g. VeriFone Vx570 credit card reader with smart card option installed, and a custom C/C++ app that as of yet has not been written)
The main thing is the token needs some way to know for certain it isn't being lied to when it is told that it has the proper balance in its account. That way you can trust the indicator on the token to be an accurate sign of the value of the token.
The token does not need to know its balance. Why would it?
The token itself doesn't necessarily need access to the block chain, as long as it can be stuck into a reader that can perform these functions and has access to the block chain. (e.g. VeriFone Vx570 credit card reader with smart card option installed, and a custom C/C++ app that as of yet has not been written)
The main thing is the token needs some way to know for certain it isn't being lied to when it is told that it has the proper balance in its account. That way you can trust the indicator on the token to be an accurate sign of the value of the token.
What if the physical thing was a token kinda like those PRNG some banks give their clients to perform webbanking operations, but instead of running a PRNG it got a wallet file and a wallet managing software, using NFC or some contact based or wireless protocol to interface with devices that can share their internet connection for changing the contents of the token?
A secure physical token for storing BTC would need to never divulge its private key and be able to produce a transaction when given a address to send the coins to. It would also need to have some indicator on it to show if it had produced such a transaction and was therefore worthless.
If the token could verify that it had access to a reliable copy of the block chain it could be reloadable.
For any of that to work people would need to trust the hardware and its manufacturer.
If the token could verify that it had access to a reliable copy of the block chain it could be reloadable.
For any of that to work people would need to trust the hardware and its manufacturer.
Trust of hardware and manufacturer can be resolved by encumbering coins with two private keys instead of one, something the Bitcoin client already supports through its "scripting" engine. One key hardcoded by the manufacturer, the second changeable by a power user. Once the second private key is changed, the manufacturer can't repossess the coins, and this also guards against the manufacturer making multiple cards with the same private key.
The token itself doesn't necessarily need access to the block chain, as long as it can be stuck into a reader that can perform these functions and has access to the block chain. (e.g. VeriFone Vx570 credit card reader with smart card option installed, and a custom C/C++ app that as of yet has not been written)
Did you quote the wrong person? I was suggesting a promotional item that could be given away to increase interest in bitcoin. If the coins are still available they can move them to another bitcoin address if not the person receiving it is only out the time it took to check the balance.
A secure physical token for storing BTC would need to never divulge its private key and be able to produce a transaction when given a address to send the coins to. It would also need to have some indicator on it to show if it had produced such a transaction and was therefore worthless.
If the token could verify that it had access to a reliable copy of the block chain it could be reloadable.
For any of that to work people would need to trust the hardware and its manufacturer.
A secure physical token for storing BTC would need to never divulge its private key and be able to produce a transaction when given a address to send the coins to. It would also need to have some indicator on it to show if it had produced such a transaction and was therefore worthless.
If the token could verify that it had access to a reliable copy of the block chain it could be reloadable.
For any of that to work people would need to trust the hardware and its manufacturer.
A physical bitcoin that contained a usb drive with the bitcoin software and a wallet with a balance of 1 BTC would make a very good promotional item for bitcoin.
I have a wallet with 1BTC-smartcards. I am giving one coin the to the other human.
How that other human will be able to check that smartcards actually contain coins?
If coins are already spent than such "physical coin" will be of zero value.
How other human can be sure, that you have not make a backup of the "physical coin" ?
(I imply, thath it is impossible to transfer money from "physical coin" to another wallet, because there is no direct internet access.)
If there is a backup - there is a risk of spending BTC from that backup.
Hopefully someone will soon compile bitcoin on a smartcard.
A physical bitcoin that contained a usb drive with the bitcoin software and a wallet with a balance of 1 BTC would make a very good promotional item for bitcoin. That would be a lot easier than any system for secure transfer of bitcoins via a physical object.
Great idea... You are a very smart person... I wish I could have thought of such a simple idea.
A physical bitcoin that contained a usb drive with the bitcoin software and a wallet with a balance of 1 BTC would make a very good promotional item for bitcoin. That would be a lot easier than any system for secure transfer of bitcoins via a physical object.
Alternatively you could simply make the market for them, buying and selling them at a +.01 to -.01 spread. Then instead of having a backed currency you would have a pegged currency. The advantages of a pegged currency is that it would be possible to expand the money supply based on actual demand rather than target interest rates.
I also think a physical currency pegged to Bitcoin would be very interesting. The biggest trouble would be making the coins cheaply enough.For making it an actual coin that's useful for transactions, you could embed an NFC chip into it. The tag chips cost about a dollar, I think, and can store small amounts of arbitrary data that can then be read by near field radio. It'd probably be possible to fit a keypair into it.
I think that NFC smartcards containing entire Bitcoin wallets would be far more practical than NFC "coins" containing 1 BTC each. You could even program NFC-enabled smartphones to emulate the smartcards.
Without the devices, the notes are offline wallets.
...you will be able to exchange notes without using any network...
This is why I thought you were talking about trading without being on the network. Of course if you are on the network your idea works fine.
The devices that redistribute Bitcoins between notes would be connected to the network. The notes don't got copies of your wallet, they are a wallet on their own, when transfering Bitcoins you're really transfering Bitcoins, not copying wallets.
If and when BTC becomes more widely accepted, I'd consider starting a physical currency that is pegged to bitcoins.
Fractional reserve banking, in other words. I'm not criticizing though. It's inevitable, and it's harmless provided the level of backing behind the "pegging" is honestly disclosed.
Just use your 5 BTC(price deflation + cheap phones!) smartphone of the near future as your wallet.
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