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Topic: A Resource Based Economy - page 85. (Read 288348 times)

hero member
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November 01, 2011, 10:35:39 AM
I found the orientation video to be particularly good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ngs-tOybJc

Sorry but it got too frustrating to watch after he claims it's not a political movement in the very first sentence. At this point it can only appeal to people who are not familiar with the millenia old contemplations about a RBE.

it's impossible to be ineficent

What is the proposed solution to the economic calculation problem by this particular movement? Any published papers you can recommend?
hero member
Activity: 1778
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WorkAsPro
November 01, 2011, 09:20:39 AM
I found the orientation video to be particularly good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ngs-tOybJc

A key idea in the RBE is infrastructure. Everything becomes a process with inputs and outputs. No advertising is reqired and it's impossible to be ineficent and make any profit at all. It also unjoins the idea of where something is to what something is. Like Bitcoin it's a conceptually simple solution to various verry tricky problems.
hero member
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October 29, 2011, 12:20:40 PM

There are too many examples of conflicts than i could possibly write here.
Think of human greed, jealousy, egoism and hate and that is just a start.


Oh common this is basic stuff.

Would you deny that most people are driven by emotions and desires?

Or maybe cartain parents wanting (demanding) more for their children.
There is no concept of more in abundance state.
Do you demand more air to your children ?( the most important resource of all you cant live without even few minutes ). Do you need to provide more air to your children ? Are you afraid your children wont get enough air ? ( ok i am but its a matter of monetary system and pollution following so destroying abundance is the case here )
The problem is that parents thinking of their children are egoistical (dictated by their biology).
Their deepest drive is not to have a good earth for all children. They want their child to be better than all other children.
Of course i'm generelizing, but that only shows that there are different people on earth with different sets of goals, short and long term.

Then, before you know it, a country stands up and claims they deserve the most because they have the bestest resources.
Countries is just an artificial boundaries that emerged from scarcity environment, when you look at earth from space there are no borders.
And yet there has been no day without a war somewhere in the world for quite some time.
It seems that people and their leaders are pretty much fixated on those borders.
You may say that education will fix it, but i have heared these ideas since childhood and yet i see patriotic and nationalistic ideas in almost everyone i meet in daily life.
People tend to naturally want to form groups (it's better from a survival point of view) and then to stress the border between their group and the rest of their environment in various ways.
You can clearly see this in, for instance, the social dynamics of football (americans:soccer) fans.
You would need large parts of culture and how it influences humans to become extinct.
You would need a global culture that would replace any national identity to even get started.
Have you seen the attempts at a global government and how they failed time after time?
I guess not then.

That's human nature, i'm afraid.
There is no such thing , you are 90% result of your environment.
 If you were born in middle east you would most likely pray to Allah 5 times a day while hating Yankees at the same time and human nature would have nothing to do with it.
Yeah, well that is kind of a wrong interpretation of those numbers.
It's something popular that gets repeated blindly through the media.
90% of how you are is somehow shaped by the environment, but the roots are in the genes.
There are honestly so many things that are driven by genes that most people tend to take them for granted.
The fact that you can walk, that you can see, that you can hear, think and feel.
All comming from your genetic makeup.
The environment is working on those things but don't ever forget that you are in actuality an interaction between your genes and the environment.
On the one hand there would be nothing for the environment to work on without the genes so it's at best a system requiring both.
On the other hand you have genes that actively interfere with us as an organism.
Making a separation of a system from it's environment is silly. Nothing in reality is separated in such a way.
We are 100% the result of our environment working on our genes.

You give the example of someone in the middle east hating yankees.
But how is that different from a yankee hating an arab?
Or your neighbour hating you?
Is the capacity for hatered not dictated by genes?

By misunderstanding the relation between genes and environment (which often includes large ammounts of other genes) you trivially dismiss a large portion of what makes us human.
Just saying.,

And it comes down to an oversimplified ideal of what you think a human should be that is at the core of the idea of a resource based economy.
The real world, however, is far more complex that this and without addressing this complexity you have absolutely no chance whatsoever to even begin organizing such a revolution.

And maybe i should state again that i am not against the idea of a RBE but i just think that it is not feasible given human nature.

Quote

Genes are only predispositions but environment is the key influence how you actually act.
In countries like Sweden where culturally corruption is something to be embarrassed of, there is very little of it.
Genes are not 'only predispositions'.
Genes play an active role throughout a persons life.
From birth till death and everything in between.

Corruption is like masterbating.
If it's socially unacceptable then it will be done when no one is looking.
Think of all the pedo-priests around the world.
That's human nature for you.
And besides, sweden has a good social care system so noone actually has a lot of complaints.
It's not that they are better people, they just have a better life.
Their natural drives to improve their situation are pacified.
But they are not extinguished and if the social system in sweden collapses people will again be unhappy and corruption will thrive.
And it's just another example of a gene-environment interaction.
The genes want a certain environment to be content in.
And once they are content enough they don't want to lose the environment that made them content and sometimes will even kill for it.

Humans are much more complicated than the idea of RBE allows for.
legendary
Activity: 1764
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October 29, 2011, 05:42:30 AM
Nice poem, very reminiscent of First They Came....

I don't believe Peter Joseph would support Bitcoin, he is the kind of guy who wants to have his vision realized without indirections, dare I say radically. He'd probably even hate it as the libertarianism Bitcoin stands for is almost the polar opposite to a centrally managed resource based economy.

donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
October 29, 2011, 05:36:53 AM
After viewing the recent LA Townhall presentation, I realized that a monetary market system that wasn't based on debt or interest is something that Peter Joseph hasn't yet heard about. I think that if he learns about and understands bitcoin, he would be able to promote it or at least mention it to the rest of the Zeitgeist Movement.

Don't worry about them. You understand what bitcoin is about, but don't expect others to. Groups like that are well to develop a Ripple type system. Eventually, people will realize the senselessness of money, even bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1500
Merit: 1022
I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.
October 28, 2011, 11:11:49 PM
After viewing the recent LA Townhall presentation, I realized that a monetary market system that wasn't based on debt or interest is something that Peter Joseph hasn't yet heard about. I think that if he learns about and understands bitcoin, he would be able to promote it or at least mention it to the rest of the Zeitgeist Movement.
legendary
Activity: 1500
Merit: 1022
I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.
October 19, 2011, 09:25:10 AM
Today and Tomorrow

The child that you starve today,
Will not grow your food tomorrow.

The man you put on the street today,
Will steal from you tomorrow.

The student that you won't teach today,
Will not mend your wounds tomorrow.

The profits that you made today,
Will create your loss tomorrow.

Your police who locked me up today,
Will lock you up tomorrow.

Your religion that preaches love today,
Will teach you hate tomorrow.

The master who you serve today,
Will have you killed tomorrow.

The life you had until today,
Was made of my tomorrow.

All I've learned, from all my days,
from all my joy and sorrow,

Is if I don't care for you today,
Then who will care for me tomorrow?
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1002
October 02, 2011, 09:14:49 PM
Agreed. But every individual, or every perspective within an individual, or every different ideology, puts different weights on these and other values. There is the knowledge aspect, such as scientific predictions of extinction events or the feasibility of colonizing other planets or religious dogma (such as believing that apocalypse should not be avoided). There are also values used to decide, based on this knowledge, what the best outcome is for the will to realize itself. For instance, some people would prefer dying over living in pain. Entire populations probably wouldn't, but it's not something we can predict.
I think you going way to far with you problems.

TZM advocates resource based economy not a rigged enforced way of life .

You know economy like producing food and shit and managing resources , you are again falling into a trap way o thinking , if you dont know everything you cant do anything

Right now we face the same exact problems , i think in current paradigm where actually money is making decisions for us we have much less freedoms then we could have.

My comment wasn't directly about RBE, you are taking it out of context. I like the RBE concept. My objections are against scientism and related fallacies, which mainly boil down to the is-ought problem.

Plus, my objections start after assuming we knew enough. Don't even get me started about what we actually know.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
October 02, 2011, 06:52:00 PM

There is no such thing , you are 90% result of your environment.
 If you were born in middle east you would most likely pray to Allah 5 times a day while hating Yankees at the same time and human nature would have nothing to do with it.

Genes are only predispositions but environment is the key influence how you actually act.
In countries like Sweden where culturally corruption is something to be embarrassed of, there is very little of it.

But your genes tell you that you want to form a social group.
And they make you make a virtual boundary, them and us.
Then suddenly us is better than they, etc, etc, etc, history is full of it.
Don't think for a minute that education is the cure-all for this.
This mechanism is in our genes and it dictates a large part of our social behaviour.

Corruption is more a signal of a failing government than anything else.

member
Activity: 119
Merit: 10
October 02, 2011, 06:03:27 PM

There are too many examples of conflicts than i could possibly write here.
Think of human greed, jealousy, egoism and hate and that is just a start.


Oh common this is basic stuff.

First i asked you about ONE example of something tangible all i got is old school propaganda.

Or maybe cartain parents wanting (demanding) more for their children.
There is no concept of more in abundance state.
Do you demand more air to your children ?( the most important resource of all you cant live without even few minutes ). Do you need to provide more air to your children ? Are you afraid your children wont get enough air ? ( ok i am but its a matter of monetary system and pollution following so destroying abundance is the case here )

Then, before you know it, a country stands up and claims they deserve the most because they have the bestest resources.
Countries is just an artificial boundaries that emerged from scarcity environment, when you look at earth from space there are no borders.

That's human nature, i'm afraid.
There is no such thing , you are 90% result of your environment.
 If you were born in middle east you would most likely pray to Allah 5 times a day while hating Yankees at the same time and human nature would have nothing to do with it.

Genes are only predispositions but environment is the key influence how you actually act.
In countries like Sweden where culturally corruption is something to be embarrassed of, there is very little of it.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
October 02, 2011, 05:21:02 PM

And this is the basis for my ciritique pages ago of the original idea.
Since many humans have may different views on life it would be virtually impossible to have everyone cooperate in forming such a resource based economy.



Could you bring one example of possible conflict of interests so i may understand what you mean ?

There are too many examples of conflicts than i could possibly write here.
Think of human greed, jealousy, egoism and hate and that is just a start.
Or maybe cartain parents wanting (demanding) more for their children.
Then, before you know it, a country stands up and claims they deserve the most because they have the bestest resources.
That's human nature, i'm afraid.
member
Activity: 119
Merit: 10
October 02, 2011, 04:37:02 PM

And this is the basis for my ciritique pages ago of the original idea.
Since many humans have may different views on life it would be virtually impossible to have everyone cooperate in forming such a resource based economy.



Could you bring one example of possible conflict of interests so i may understand what you mean ?
member
Activity: 119
Merit: 10
October 02, 2011, 04:34:15 PM

Agreed. But every individual, or every perspective within an individual, or every different ideology, puts different weights on these and other values. There is the knowledge aspect, such as scientific predictions of extinction events or the feasibility of colonizing other planets or religious dogma (such as believing that apocalypse should not be avoided). There are also values used to decide, based on this knowledge, what the best outcome is for the will to realize itself. For instance, some people would prefer dying over living in pain. Entire populations probably wouldn't, but it's not something we can predict.


I think you going way to far with you problems.

TZM advocates resource based economy not a rigged enforced way of life .

You know economy like producing food and shit and managing resources , you are again falling into a trap way o thinking , if you dont know everything you cant do anything

Right now we face the same exact problems , i think in current paradigm where actually money is making decisions for us we have much less freedoms then we could have.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
October 02, 2011, 04:53:22 AM
To elaborate, imagine that Alice's view as the goal of humanity is epistemological enlightenment. And Bob's is happiness of individuals. And Carlos thinks it's survival of humans as a race. What would be their ideas of the ideal environment for a human being? Or even, are their idea of a human being the same? What would they think about cloning or eugenics? What about economical structure, social structure? How would they compare the value of life to other values? So on and so forth...
Without survival of the species there are no happy individuals nor there can be any enlightenment.

Just a thought.

Agreed. But every individual, or every perspective within an individual, or every different ideology, puts different weights on these and other values. There is the knowledge aspect, such as scientific predictions of extinction events or the feasibility of colonizing other planets or religious dogma (such as believing that apocalypse should not be avoided). There are also values used to decide, based on this knowledge, what the best outcome is for the will to realize itself. For instance, some people would prefer dying over living in pain. Entire populations probably wouldn't, but it's not something we can predict.

And this is the basis for my ciritique pages ago of the original idea.
Since many humans have may different views on life it would be virtually impossible to have everyone cooperate in forming such a resource based economy.
Education will teach people to think for themselfs, but that does not mean they will automatically think what the OP needs them to think to undergo such a societal revolution.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1002
October 02, 2011, 04:32:25 AM
We are each becoming a neuron in the growing superbrain of the human species. Our aggregate perceptions coupled with increased interlinking and communications will lead to a very interesting new paradigm of social organization and resource allocation.

Arguably, this is already the case. Amen to the interesting new paradigms though.
legendary
Activity: 1500
Merit: 1022
I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.
October 02, 2011, 04:00:13 AM
We are each becoming a neuron in the growing superbrain of the human species. Our aggregate perceptions coupled with increased interlinking and communications will lead to a very interesting new paradigm of social organization and resource allocation.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1002
October 01, 2011, 10:08:39 PM
To elaborate, imagine that Alice's view as the goal of humanity is epistemological enlightenment. And Bob's is happiness of individuals. And Carlos thinks it's survival of humans as a race. What would be their ideas of the ideal environment for a human being? Or even, are their idea of a human being the same? What would they think about cloning or eugenics? What about economical structure, social structure? How would they compare the value of life to other values? So on and so forth...
Without survival of the species there are no happy individuals nor there can be any enlightenment.

Just a thought.

Agreed. But every individual, or every perspective within an individual, or every different ideology, puts different weights on these and other values. There is the knowledge aspect, such as scientific predictions of extinction events or the feasibility of colonizing other planets or religious dogma (such as believing that apocalypse should not be avoided). There are also values used to decide, based on this knowledge, what the best outcome is for the will to realize itself. For instance, some people would prefer dying over living in pain. Entire populations probably wouldn't, but it's not something we can predict.
member
Activity: 119
Merit: 10
October 01, 2011, 02:55:25 PM

To elaborate, imagine that Alice's view as the goal of humanity is epistemological enlightenment. And Bob's is happiness of individuals. And Carlos thinks it's survival of humans as a race. What would be their ideas of the ideal environment for a human being? Or even, are their idea of a human being the same? What would they think about cloning or eugenics? What about economical structure, social structure? How would they compare the value of life to other values? So on and so forth...

Without survival of the species there are no happy individuals nor there can be any enlightenment.

Just a thought.



hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1002
September 29, 2011, 01:37:32 PM
"eliminating the weak from the gene pool will result in a healthier population"
Sorry to say, but this is incorrect.
It should be:"eliminating the weak from the gene pool will result in a healthier population under current circumstances".
The difference is incredibly important to evolution and genetic variation (even the seemingly weak ones) is a big part of the survival mechanism of a species.
It is, as we have found out in biology over the past decennia, the core flaw with the eugenic line of thought.

Yes, that's exactly the idea I've elaborated in the following sentences, and also other parts of the topic. The reason I gave the eugenics example is because its premise is only correct in a very narrow context. Also, what you say is the less important flaw of eugenics. Not only it's "temporary" as you said, it's you who define health. So descriptive ignorance and normative relativity are two different things. Even if you could measure weakness in all possible circumstances, it would still be your measure.

To elaborate, imagine that Alice's view as the goal of humanity is epistemological enlightenment. And Bob's is happiness of individuals. And Carlos thinks it's survival of humans as a race. What would be their ideas of the ideal environment for a human being? Or even, are their idea of a human being the same? What would they think about cloning or eugenics? What about economical structure, social structure? How would they compare the value of life to other values? So on and so forth...
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
September 29, 2011, 09:58:18 AM
"eliminating the weak from the gene pool will result in a healthier population"

Sorry to say, but this is incorrect.
It should be:"eliminating the weak from the gene pool will result in a healthier population under current circumstances".
The difference is incredibly important to evolution and genetic variation (even the seemingly weak ones) is a big part of the survival mechanism of a species.
It is, as we have found out in biology over the past decennia, the core flaw with the eugenic line of thought.

It's difficult to figure out who exactly is weak, too. You'd think if you wanted strong people, you'd pick football jocks, but...


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