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Topic: A Simple Reason Why Bitcoin and Crypto Prices Must Fall to Zero (Read 683 times)

full member
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“FRX: Ferocious Alpha”

All bubbles eventually but inevitably pop. Then, massive sell-offs cause prices to decline, often quite dramatically. The real demand is what stops prices from further decline. With crypto lacking such demand, there is nothing to stop the decline, and prices inevitably must fall to zero.
Thank you for the reminder mate I will keep this in mind and will never forget same as I will Save and bookmark this thread for further update if what happened in Bitcoin after the halving in the next halving , if what you said is correct then the price must be declined next year and will continue to declined in the next 4 years cycle , and then zero ..
but if this never come , make sure that you will still here to accept our words towards you.
hero member
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OP I think you're confusing Bitcoin with Crypto.

Altcoins (ie random tokens that have no real usage or purpose) do indeed go toward zero over time against Bitcoin.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a highly valuable global currency with tremendous utility for the world. Humanity has always had incredible demand for things with the qualities of Bitcoin: scarce, high utility, incorruptible.

So while yes the average random crypto token whether a useless meme token or a token for a random app that isn't successful...these will go toward zero over time, the one thing we know is that Bitcoin will continue increasing in price over time UNLESS something similar that is significantly better comes out at some point that can wage war with Bitcoin over its territory. But the likelihood of that happening looks incredible low, because obviously its not a matter of copying the code (as endless cryptos have done), but its a matter of establishing the immutability/decentralization/security/community like Bitcoin and it doesn't seem likely any future attempt at a global open currency could succeed at that since we already have Bitcoin. Such a theoretical competitor would have to be at least an order of magnitude better than Bitcoin in terms of usability, and just as good as Bitcoin at all those previously mentioned things (which is by far the hardest part) to even attempt to compete with Bitcoin.

So yes Crypto prices will (and already do) fall towards zero, at least for things that haven't found real use which in Crypto is so far everything except Ethereum and Ethereum is the exception only because it's where all that failed stuff lives so Ethereum is kept alive by the constant failed experiments. But while specific cryptos fall toward zero over time Bitcoin is the thing that will keep going up over time because it has the thing that all the other cryptos have failed to find: incredible utility and fundamental value to humanity.
legendary
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I can understand when one is doubtful about real demand of Bitcoin. But Bitcoin is literally giving people like me (out of first world countries) opportunity to trade internationally, cheapest and the most headache-free way. Bitcoin's decentralized nature makes it very very useful. I understand many people believe Bitcoin is overvalued but to be honest, even if it was couple of cents I would use it because of its decentralized nature.
Determining the value of anything is always a challenge, however what we need to wonder is if the value of bitcoin should be above zero? And obviously the answer is yes, bitcoin allows you to offer your products and services to clients all over the world without having to go through all kind of paper work at your local bank, it gives you full control of your assets, while offering you a decentralized environment and protection from the devaluation of fiat currencies, all of that must be worth something, now how much bitcoin should be worth? Right now the current agreement on the markets is a price above 34k.
hero member
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Bitcoin's future is known. Remember how much it cost 10 years ago, no one could imagine how much bitcoin would cost now. Of course the order of price change will be much smaller than it was at first, but bitcoin's deflationary model will always make it more expensive because demand will exceed supply.
It would be quite reasonable to imagine what the future of Bitcoin will be after looking at the facts over the last ten years of what has happened to Bitcoin, because from that alone actually everyone can make a slight conclusion that Bitcoin will indeed have a fairly bright future as long as it is in demand. can continue to increase through new users coming into the market to continue buying Bitcoin after making their own considerations. So maybe there is no reason for those who are familiar with Bitcoin to say that its future is not good because the evidence is also clear.
legendary
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I can understand when one is doubtful about real demand of Bitcoin. But Bitcoin is literally giving people like me (out of first world countries) opportunity to trade internationally, cheapest and the most headache-free way. Bitcoin's decentralized nature makes it very very useful. I understand many people believe Bitcoin is overvalued but to be honest, even if it was couple of cents I would use it because of its decentralized nature.
legendary
Activity: 1372
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Still, no one is addressing the topic at hand - the difference between real and speculative demand.

It is that the premise under which you put it is simply false. The demand for Bitcoin is not speculative, on the contrary, it is real demand for the best financial asset to store and transfer value in large quantities and without censorship. As your knucklehead does not understand that, you keep repeating the same falsehood, which you have heard from some Bitcoin hater like Peter Schiff, and from there you mount the OP's rant.

I hope at least you are putting your money where your mouth is and betting against Bitcoin. But I'm guessing not, you Bitcoin haters have a lot of theories but you don't bet down, you keep saying bullshit like that about demand not being real when the price goes over $10, and then over $100 and then over $1K, and so on.
hero member
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dude that is real demand.

@philipma1957 Grin are you getting fun? I don't see the point to discuse with someone that don't want to see the obvious, @JamesNZ is a bitcoin hater just like the other guy jvanname.

[sarcasm]
No one in the world want a decentralized and robust P2P system of interchange of value that remove of the Intermediates banks and government   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Obvious there is no demand for that right?
[/sarcasm]
legendary
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'The right to privacy matters'
Still, no one is addressing the topic at hand - the difference between real and speculative demand.

dude that is real demand. BTC's single biggest ability is convert power into wealth. which means it can be used to maintain grid levels properly all over the world.
legendary
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I don't see any reason why the price of bitcoin has to be zero, the people who are enemies of bitcoin are not going to allow it either, because every enemy of bitcoin, since they have bitcoin, they are not so stupid, knowing that bitcoin is devastating 'co with such a low price and it has reached 70 thousand usd, that means that at any moment it can reach more than 100 thousand usd, and that makes anyone greedy, because quietly they buy bitcoin and continue buying, but no I know they earn by making life impossible, maybe they make life impossible for bitocin so that the price drops a lot and they take advantage of buying.

The price of bitcoin could be zero if mining stops and the blockchain comes to a complete stop. Bitcoin would then become worthless. But since a few pizzas have been bought with bitcoins, it has gained value. Now the biggest companies have loud coin mining capacity and pay big money for electricity. For this reason alone, bitcoin can't be worth $0.
and how exactly the blockchain can come to a complete stop so suddenly from having massive traffic, the thing with bitcoin's blockchain is that if there's less miner, then there's bigger rewards, which also will motivate new miners to come in, it will keep running, only when bitcoin suddenly lost its value to quite literally zero, which isn't likely to happen, then miner will not feeling get motivated since there are no worthy reward, even then the blockchain might still be running.
its overall not realistic scenario with bitcoin falling to zero, it just doesn't seem gonna happen even in the future though this just my 2 cents but i'm pretty sure bitcoin value will still high even decades to come.
hero member
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How many times did we heard that Bitcoin is and was a bubble and until now it hasn't popped? Well, for so many times we'd heard of the same thought about it being a bubble and it did popped as what you're trying to say and that's during and every bear market. That's not enough to prove that there's real demand and it's able to get up and back from the better price that we're right now? It's still quite far from the ATH but that's not the basis of it, the current price of it compared to the past years has been stably showing that there's a real value, a real demand that everyone is getting on it. Studying the model and economics of it, it's something to be amazed of because it's sustainable and this is like another new beginning for it opening a new demand soon.
sr. member
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Hire Bitcointalk Camp. Manager @ r7promotions.com
I don't see any reason why the price of bitcoin has to be zero, the people who are enemies of bitcoin are not going to allow it either, because every enemy of bitcoin, since they have bitcoin, they are not so stupid, knowing that bitcoin is devastating 'co with such a low price and it has reached 70 thousand usd, that means that at any moment it can reach more than 100 thousand usd, and that makes anyone greedy, because quietly they buy bitcoin and continue buying, but no I know they earn by making life impossible, maybe they make life impossible for bitocin so that the price drops a lot and they take advantage of buying.
sr. member
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I don't see any reason why the price of bitcoin has to be zero, the people who are enemies of bitcoin are not going to allow it either, because every enemy of bitcoin, since they have bitcoin, they are not so stupid, knowing that bitcoin is devastating 'co with such a low price and it has reached 70 thousand usd, that means that at any moment it can reach more than 100 thousand usd, and that makes anyone greedy, because quietly they buy bitcoin and continue buying, but no I know they earn by making life impossible, maybe they make life impossible for bitocin so that the price drops a lot and they take advantage of buying.


The Bitcoin market is volatile and its future is not known.  We can speculate yes, but the future of Bitcoin price is still unknown.  This means Bitcoin has the possibility to uptrend or downtrend, this depends on the people that are supporting the Bitcoin market.  

The enemy of Bitcoin will not touch a single satoshi because they will not support its economy unless the person is pretending to be anti-Bitcoin just to manipulate the market to take advantage.



As for the Bitcoin price, Bitcoin has already established its fundamentals so it is hard for the Bitcoin market to fall to zero.  Bitcoin has already been integrated to many companies so there is already a real life use case thus strengthening its position in the marketplace.
Bitcoin's future is known. Remember how much it cost 10 years ago, no one could imagine how much bitcoin would cost now. Of course the order of price change will be much smaller than it was at first, but bitcoin's deflationary model will always make it more expensive because demand will exceed supply.
jr. member
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Still, no one is addressing the topic at hand - the difference between real and speculative demand.
legendary
Activity: 4256
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'The right to privacy matters'
It's funny how literally no one addresses the topic at hand and just talk about the usual crypto stuff or make ad hominem attacks.

Took you more than 17 days to make a reply.

Here is real use for you. Texas has wind and solar for power  lots and lots and lots of it. Texas has flare natural gas which they use to burn off.

Texas Now uses large BTC mines to Manage excess power which has happened on multiple occasions .

Some of the worlds larges BTC mines are helping to stabilize Texas Power grid. + fact and real use.


legendary
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I don't see any reason why the price of bitcoin has to be zero, the people who are enemies of bitcoin are not going to allow it either, because every enemy of bitcoin, since they have bitcoin, they are not so stupid, knowing that bitcoin is devastating 'co with such a low price and it has reached 70 thousand usd, that means that at any moment it can reach more than 100 thousand usd, and that makes anyone greedy, because quietly they buy bitcoin and continue buying, but no I know they earn by making life impossible, maybe they make life impossible for bitocin so that the price drops a lot and they take advantage of buying.


The Bitcoin market is volatile and its future is not known.  We can speculate yes, but the future of Bitcoin price is still unknown.  This means Bitcoin has the possibility to uptrend or downtrend, this depends on the people that are supporting the Bitcoin market.  

The enemy of Bitcoin will not touch a single satoshi because they will not support its economy unless the person is pretending to be anti-Bitcoin just to manipulate the market to take advantage.



As for the Bitcoin price, Bitcoin has already established its fundamentals so it is hard for the Bitcoin market to fall to zero.  Bitcoin has already been integrated to many companies so there is already a real life use case thus strengthening its position in the marketplace.
sr. member
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Cashback 15%
I don't see any reason why the price of bitcoin has to be zero, the people who are enemies of bitcoin are not going to allow it either, because every enemy of bitcoin, since they have bitcoin, they are not so stupid, knowing that bitcoin is devastating 'co with such a low price and it has reached 70 thousand usd, that means that at any moment it can reach more than 100 thousand usd, and that makes anyone greedy, because quietly they buy bitcoin and continue buying, but no I know they earn by making life impossible, maybe they make life impossible for bitocin so that the price drops a lot and they take advantage of buying.

The price of bitcoin could be zero if mining stops and the blockchain comes to a complete stop. Bitcoin would then become worthless. But since a few pizzas have been bought with bitcoins, it has gained value. Now the biggest companies have loud coin mining capacity and pay big money for electricity. For this reason alone, bitcoin can't be worth $0.
sr. member
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Hire Bitcointalk Camp. Manager @ r7promotions.com
I don't see any reason why the price of bitcoin has to be zero, the people who are enemies of bitcoin are not going to allow it either, because every enemy of bitcoin, since they have bitcoin, they are not so stupid, knowing that bitcoin is devastating 'co with such a low price and it has reached 70 thousand usd, that means that at any moment it can reach more than 100 thousand usd, and that makes anyone greedy, because quietly they buy bitcoin and continue buying, but no I know they earn by making life impossible, maybe they make life impossible for bitocin so that the price drops a lot and they take advantage of buying.
sr. member
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As we know that cryptocurrencies are digital assets which of course can be abandoned at any time, digital assets with algorithms which of course have weaknesses or keys to open them, currently we think it is impossible to know the private key, but developments will continue to occur and one day it will be easy to find out private key thus making cryptocurrencies abandoned.
jr. member
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It's funny how literally no one addresses the topic at hand and just talk about the usual crypto stuff or make ad hominem attacks.
legendary
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'The right to privacy matters'
Its not nonsense argument its just not correct, I've heard a few of these points before and they are quite mainstream and believed  by a few people as correct reasoning to be anti crypto.
Quote
Hence the inflation of cryptocurrencies - there are more than 20K of them.

This one I heard before, all crypto is equal and whatever value is in BTC can instantly be repeated elsewhere.  Primarily because its open source, its kinda a fair point that we do not retain copyright and some people thought this to be a fatal mistake in a capitalistic world.   However BTC is not easy to replicate definitely not out of nowhere, we already have this discussion in a massive way with the blockchain split.     BTC defeated its former backers attempts to replicate and their divergence in the code protocol:


These arent new and are not especially threat because ironically BTC is unique.  Despite no copyright and many other apparent negatives on retention of value BTC is not easily acquired or replaced by other means.  BTC is unique and hence has a specific value, we can argue over price but its not zero.   As soon as OP is true we'll see it more obviously, market tests pricing and demand for BTC everyday.

 scrypt with LTC and Doge merged mining ⛏️ Is better than BTC in the long term.

Satoshi wants power to make wealth.

Sha-256 burns power making wealth but down the road rewards will zero out.

Scrypt burns power making wealth but down the road rwards via doge don’t zero out.



The op bailed as he was just a troll with pointless ideas.

pow coins create wealth and will continue to do so for years to come.
STT
legendary
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Its not nonsense argument its just not correct, I've heard a few of these points before and they are quite mainstream and believed  by a few people as correct reasoning to be anti crypto.
Quote
Hence the inflation of cryptocurrencies - there are more than 20K of them.

This one I heard before, all crypto is equal and whatever value is in BTC can instantly be repeated elsewhere.  Primarily because its open source, its kinda a fair point that we do not retain copyright and some people thought this to be a fatal mistake in a capitalistic world.   However BTC is not easy to replicate definitely not out of nowhere, we already have this discussion in a massive way with the blockchain split.     BTC defeated its former backers attempts to replicate and their divergence in the code protocol:


These arent new and are not especially threat because ironically BTC is unique.  Despite no copyright and many other apparent negatives on retention of value BTC is not easily acquired or replaced by other means.  BTC is unique and hence has a specific value, we can argue over price but its not zero.   As soon as OP is true we'll see it more obviously, market tests pricing and demand for BTC everyday.
hero member
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No God or Kings, only BITCOIN.
All bubbles eventually but inevitably pop. Then, massive sell-offs cause prices to decline, often quite dramatically. The real demand is what stops prices from further decline. With crypto lacking such demand, there is nothing to stop the decline, and prices inevitably must fall to zero.
Probably just a hater who wants to stir things with a story. You probably missed that its blockchain technology harness lot of real demands. I guess you're just being dazzled because it's clear you don't clearly haven't been fully comprehend it yet. Try to explore and don't have that confirmation bias wins over you, you should look the other sides of it.
legendary
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-snip-
More importantly so that the reason why we engage further in this discussion is for us to open up more facts and ideas on the topic since we are all here to learn by sharing knowledge.
Of course you have good initiative - but are you sure OP really wants to admit that fact?
Many posters before me have explained the facts about bitcoin to him - but he stuck to his guns and didn't change his point of view one bit. I just really want to stop posting here and reporting this thread as an attempt at trolling in the hopes one of mods will lock it - but let's see if they agree with me.
hero member
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Well, I won't blame him so much as he is just a newbie who is just starting to experience Bitcoin by taking a step to be a member of this forum,  so I advise ops to keep reading and stop writing nonsense about Bitcoin.
If you really understand what he said on the first page, then you might realize that his knowledge of bitcoin may already exceed some of the people here. But what happened was; that OP went against the grain (denying many facts) which in effect has only made him a troll. The best thing to do is; don't feed the trolls, that's all.
I agree with you on that,  and from the look of things,  he is not active on the thread to respond to comments that are being made on the thread,  this also shows what level of troll the ops is,  because one of the noticeable characters of a troll is that they never engage in constructive arguments that go against the own believe.

More importantly so that the reason why we engage further in this discussion is for us to open up more facts and ideas on the topic since we are all here to learn by sharing knowledge.
hero member
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Well, I won't blame him so much as he is just a newbie who is just starting to experience Bitcoin by taking a step to be a member of this forum,  so I advise ops to keep reading and stop writing nonsense about Bitcoin.
If you really understand what he said on the first page, then you might realize that his knowledge of bitcoin may already exceed some of the people here. But what happened was; OP went against the grain (denying many facts) which in effect has only made him a troll. The best thing to do is; don't feed the trolls, that's all.
hero member
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If we check products traded on the markets we will notice they have two uses. One is of course trading, the other is a specific Bitcoin and crypto, however, have only one use - trading.

That is Fucking lie, yesterday i buy some things with bitcoin. Maybe you are in somekind of bubble to see the real bitcoin potential, there is a lot of bussines that are starting to accept bitcoin payments
I think what os wrong with the ops is lack of information on the actual level of bitcoin penetration into payment systems lately and that os why head such a cheap statement as for how Bitcoin value is and what determines the through value of an asset,  this is a big misunderstanding from the ops basic knowledge of Bitcoin.

Well, I won't blame him so much as he is just a newbie who is just starting to experience Bitcoin by taking a step to be a member of this forum,  so I advise ops to keep reading and stop writing nonsense about Bitcoin.
legendary
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'The right to privacy matters'
If we check products traded on the markets we will notice they have two uses. One is of course trading, the other is a specific purpose. The first use is what constitutes speculative demand. The second use is what constitutes real demand. For example. People can desire to purchase wheat or gold because they want to sell them later. That is speculative demand. But these products are also used for specific purposes. Wheat for nutrition, while gold for making jewelry, ornaments, electronic components, etc. Demanding wheat or gold for these purposes is a real demand.

A similar is true for financial products. They are used for both trading and specific purposes. The purpose of stocks is to represent shares of ownership in organizations that sell goods or services to make a profit. Demanding stocks to benefit from these profits or eventual liquidation of equity is a real demand. The purpose of bonds is to represent debt that companies and other entities must pay in the form of face value and coupons. Demanding bonds to receive these payments is a real demand. The purpose of fiat currencies is to represent debt that individuals, organizations, or governments owe to commercial and central banks. Demanding fiat currencies to pay a bank loan or repay a government bond is a real demand.

Bitcoin and crypto, however, have only one use - trading. Anyone who has ever bought or mined them must ultimately sell them to another speculator because there is no specific purpose for which they can use them. When you hear about the uses of crypto, such as 'transferring funds online', 'spending money privately', 'low-cost money transfers', 'day-to-day purchasing of normal goods', or 'buying drugs' this is saying the same thing with different words. All that just means exchanging products, services or fiat currencies for these virtual coins. Trading is the only use they have.

A situation where something is traded on the market but has no real demand has never been seen in human history. The only reason why products are created and come to the market is because they have real demand that uses them for specific purposes. Speculative demand is only a byproduct of real demand. Speculators on the market make predictions about how valuable a product is to those who use it for specific purposes and then pay prices according to those predictions. For example. By wheat having a nutritional purpose, speculators can tell how valuable it is to consumers and whether prices are cheap or expensive. Similarly, by fiat currencies having the purpose of paying debt to the banking system, and by debtors facing foreclosures in case of default, speculators can tell how valuable they are to debtors. No speculator would give a high-end vehicle for a specific number of currency units if they see that banks issue that number of units by taking low-end vehicles as collateral. On the other hand, debtors would be happy to accept such vehicles after getting loans, because in case of default, the banks would foreclose their low-end vehicles.

Given that crypto has no specific purpose there is nothing to predict. There's no way to tell whether prices are cheap or expensive. In crypto, speculators pay prices solely on the hope that other speculators will pay them higher prices. They essentially believe in the growth of speculative demand in the future. Crypto is therefore a perfect example of the greater fool theory.

Throughout history, there have been situations of big discrepancies between real and speculative demand. This caused market bubbles, the most famous of which is the tulip one. But never before has there been an infinite discrepancy, with real demand being zero while speculative demand above zero.

All bubbles eventually but inevitably pop. Then, massive sell-offs cause prices to decline, often quite dramatically. The real demand is what stops prices from further decline. With crypto lacking such demand, there is nothing to stop the decline, and prices inevitably must fall to zero.


The bolded paragraph is where you are wrong.

BTC has value in the following manner.

It is a flight to safety product. It never be traded. You can stack it to an address that no one know you have.

You can flee your country in a disaster or a war.

You have your flight to safety stashed safely on the block chain.



At this point I have shown you to be wrong and please just archive the thread. As it is a trolling hit piece. 

  You will be dead and buried long before BTC and crypto goes to zero in all, but one case that would be total destruction of earth by a cosmic event.

BTW this is true for all of us.
donator
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I can understand people saying that most cryptos will fall to zero. It’s probably true as most of them provide no value and solve no problems. However, it’s pretty ignorant to say that about Bitcoin. There are companies pouring billions of dollars into mining facilities and infrastructure. I don’t think it’s realistic to think they’d let their investments become worthless. I think we’re much closer to the bottom now than the top.
legendary
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But how that changes the fact that gold has non-speculative use, while crypto coins don't? Literally everyone can create items that only have speculative use. Hence the inflation of cryptocurrencies - there are more than 20K of them. You just write a computer program, some protocols and voila ... you print crypto coins out of the blue . The catch is of course that no one can use those coins for anything except dumping them on the greater fool. How that has advantage over something that has actual, non-speculative use? It doesn't. You live in the fantasy word. You try to convince me that useful things don't have advantage over useless ones. Crazy.

Go and create next bitcoin. A network that is secured by computing power, the maintenance of which consumes more electricity than many countries.

And don't talk to me about crypto inflation by creation of many shitcoins. You might as well say that you won't invest in Apple because there is huge stock shares inflation, because anyone can start a company and enter the stock exchange and there is no difference between apple stock share and new small startup company shares. Bitcoin is bitcoin and shitcoins are shitcoins. They do... I agree, 99.9% of the time they have no justification for their high valuations and will probably go to zero sooner or later.
legendary
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Absolute nonsense spouted by the OP in all honesty. Bitcoin is going nowhere, governments are consistently showing how inadequate they are at managing nations funds. People are going to separate the money from state, bitcoin is the perfect tool for such a coup. I can’t speak for crypto but separate bitcoin from the nonsense & we will see the future of finance.
hero member
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So basically, you trash talk about an item that people actually use for non-speculative purposes and sweet talk about an item that has only speculative purpose. How that makes me wrong?
So basically, I talk about that an item that has 93% speculative purposes have no advantage over an item with 100% speculative purposes. especially since this 7% appeared in the last 50-100 years, and without it (i.e. also 100% speculative purposes) it held value for 2,500 years.
But how that changes the fact that gold has non-speculative use, while crypto coins don't? Literally everyone can create items that only have speculative use. Hence the inflation of cryptocurrencies - there are more than 20K of them. You just write a computer program, some protocols and voila ... you print crypto coins out of the blue . The catch is of course that no one can use those coins for anything except dumping them on the greater fool. How that has advantage over something that has actual, non-speculative use? It doesn't. You live in the fantasy word. You try to convince me that useful things don't have advantage over useless ones. Crazy.
Gold is as speculative as crypto, there are few stuff that we can use gold for, but the price is not high as it is right now because of using it, that's not the main reason for gold to be purchased by people, they buy it as an asset and that's the main reason.

I think it is quite important to make sure that we are dealing with something that would make sense and for that to happen we need to end up with something that would make sense on the long run. Hopefully we could see it change on the long run but I doubt that it would, it is going to be pretty similar. Bitcoin is here at the same exact reason as why we have gold so it is not really that much of a shocking result neither to have it this way and be similar to each other.
legendary
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This is the first time I've seen two trolls on bitcointalk in such a short space of time. If anyone wants to waste time arguing with the other troll, here's a thread:

Using change addresses does not increase privacy, just fees

As for the OP, JamesNZ if you are so sure that bitcoin must go to 0 I hope you are getting short, no? While you're at it you could provide proof that you put your money where your mouth is and bet short against bitcoin.

In the end it is one more troll of those that abound in other forums, but hardly seen in this one, the most famous being proudhon, who say things like this now and take advantage of price drops and bear markets to appear here but disappear in the bull markets.

Maybe he's shorting BTC and the price isn't moving into the direction he wanted?

I don't think so. This profile of people tends to be people who bought high in a previous cycle and sold in the bear market thinking it was going to 0. Now all these walls of text are after-the-fact rationalisations to convince themselves that what they did was right, because if bitcoin goes to 0 they were right to sell at $500 when they had bought at $1,200.
hero member
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Bitcoin is GOD
JamesNZ - who forced you to believe in crypto?
You are never obligated to believe anything you don't believe in - including crypto. If all this explanation doesn't convince you about crypto - what's the point of everything you're saying?

I'm not going to argue with people with a completely centered mindset like you - it's like putting air into a flat tire or I'm just talking to a wall. Believe in something that you believe is useful for you - it's better than never having anything. All of these cryptos are speculative - but some of them have real use cases as a means of payment. Come to El Salvador, pay for something with bitcoin - you will be welcomed there.
It is pointless to talk to those that do not want to listen, without a doubt a great deal of the demand for bitcoin is generated by speculators, this is undeniable, but is this the only demand that exists for bitcoin? This could be true for meme coins but not for bitcoin.

As a decentralized currency which offers worldwide transactions, for a reasonable fee, without a middleman and with a limited supply has value and it has an important demand as well, as many of us have bought several products and services using bitcoin as a payment option.
legendary
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I'm having a deja vu: someone some months ago started a thread with very similar arguments, and he also shared a treat with JamesNZ: he got angry and was insulting people INSTANTLY. And of course, always talking about "reality" vs "crypto propaganda" etc. I've even discussed with that person, so Mr. "James" maybe you remind me Grin No, I'll not waste time searching that thread.

However, an answer to LoyceV:

Here's a thought: you opened an account on Bitcointalk because you saw value in doing so.
Maybe he's shorting BTC and the price isn't moving into the direction he wanted? This may also explain his anger Grin

"James", so if you really are interested in a discussion about the topic of Bitcoin's value proposition and/or unique characteristics which give it value, (until now, it looks not, due to your aggressive behaviour) please use the forum's search function or Google about Bitcoin's "value proposition" or "USP". I'm ready to discuss that but will wait until you show some sign of goodwill. Other than that, I'll consider you a (possibly paid) troll.

@Don Pedro Dinero: Haha, hilarious post you linked to! Made my day!
legendary
Activity: 3010
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It's funny how all responders here ignore the argument at hand and just write stuff completely unrelated to it. The argument talks about the difference between speculative and real demand. The usual crypto propaganda for attracting speculators cannot refute it. The difference between speculative and real demand is so simple to comprehend that there is no need to say anything more than what was said in the opening post. Let alone respond to all those ad hominem and non sequitur comments.
Even if you're right, there's far too many people that's sharing the illusion and it's too late to be saying that bitcoin's going downhill because there are big players in the market now and I don't think that they would want the price to go down so fast and them still hodling, they're going to want the ability to control that drop and then get out with a big profit. You could've made your post a bit more organized too, a wall of text isn't an attractive material to read for many.
And again. Why do you think that your prediction about the growth of speculative demand is important? Literally all people that bought crypto coins assume that speculative demand will grow so they can dump those coins on someone else and get higher prices. Otherwise they would not buy the coins as there is no specific purpose for which they can use them. All holders must sell them by definition and they must believe the price will be higher. That's the essence of the greater fool theory. The topic at hand talks about why the assumptions
of the buyers contradict reality.

Don't stocks also work this way?  Early buyer speculates that the price of stocks will increase so that they can dump their holdings to the new buyers.  Isn't all the items in the marketplace do the things you stated?  It is funny how you blindly state your reason thinking it is speculative and a bubble when all the things you stated are the norms in a market trades.

Anyway, each people has their own understanding, you may understand too much @OP but you cannot force it on people.


If we check products traded on the markets we will notice they have two uses. One is of course trading, the other is a specific Bitcoin and crypto, however, have only one use - trading.

I guess you need to do more research about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency.  Do not stay on the knowledge you had wayback in years 2010.  Things are rapidly developing. 
hero member
Activity: 862
Merit: 662
If we check products traded on the markets we will notice they have two uses. One is of course trading, the other is a specific Bitcoin and crypto, however, have only one use - trading.

That is Fucking lie, yesterday i buy some things with bitcoin. Maybe you are in somekind of bubble to see the real bitcoin potential, there is a lot of bussines that are starting to accept bitcoin payments
legendary
Activity: 1064
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JamesNZ - who forced you to believe in crypto?
You are never obligated to believe anything you don't believe in - including crypto. If all this explanation doesn't convince you about crypto - what's the point of everything you're saying?

I'm not going to argue with people with a completely centered mindset like you - it's like putting air into a flat tire or I'm just talking to a wall. Believe in something that you believe is useful for you - it's better than never having anything. All of these cryptos are speculative - but some of them have real use cases as a means of payment. Come to El Salvador, pay for something with bitcoin - you will be welcomed there.
jr. member
Activity: 183
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So basically, you trash talk about an item that people actually use for non-speculative purposes and sweet talk about an item that has only speculative purpose. How that makes me wrong?

So basically, I talk about that an item that has 93% speculative purposes have no advantage over an item with 100% speculative purposes. especially since this 7% appeared in the last 50-100 years, and without it (i.e. also 100% speculative purposes) it held value for 2,500 years.
But how that changes the fact that gold has non-speculative use, while crypto coins don't? Literally everyone can create items that only have speculative use. Hence the inflation of cryptocurrencies - there are more than 20K of them. You just write a computer program, some protocols and voila ... you print crypto coins out of the blue . The catch is of course that no one can use those coins for anything except dumping them on the greater fool. How that has advantage over something that has actual, non-speculative use? It doesn't. You live in the fantasy word. You try to convince me that useful things don't have advantage over useless ones. Crazy.
legendary
Activity: 2156
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So basically, you trash talk about an item that people actually use for non-speculative purposes and sweet talk about an item that has only speculative purpose. How that makes me wrong?

So basically, I talk about that an item that has 93% speculative purposes have no advantage over an item with 100% speculative purposes. especially since this 7% appeared in the last 50-100 years, and without it (i.e. also 100% speculative purposes) it held value for 2,500 years.
hero member
Activity: 1134
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BTC, a coin of today and tomorrow.
It's funny how all responders here ignore the argument at hand and just write stuff completely unrelated to it. The argument talks about the difference between speculative and real demand. The usual crypto propaganda for attracting speculators cannot refute it. The difference between speculative and real demand is so simple to comprehend that there is no need to say anything more than what was said in the opening post. Let alone respond to all those ad hominem and non sequitur comments.



When you make this kind of controversial topics you don't expect anything different.
  • The topic is controversial
  • The topic is lengthy
  • The topic could be a fallacy
The reason why there seems to be off topic reply is because many people are not reading the wall of text but they are replying base on three title.
jr. member
Activity: 183
Merit: 1
The only problem here is your denial of reality. What I am doing is just describing reality in which everything traded on the market, except crypto, has a specific use. It has a real demand that uses it for specific purposes. Do people demand gold for making jewelry, electronic, etc. Yes. That is reality. This reality cannot change because you think something about gold.

So how exactly am I wrong if I simply described  what everyone can observe? I am not wrong but you are in denial of reality by comparing useful metal with useless virtual coins.

Gold is bad for use in jewelry. In electronics it has been used for the last 50 years and only 7% of the gold ends up there and in your opinion this has given it value for the last 2500 years? Being a poor raw material for jewelry made it the strongest asset of the last 2,500 years? NO! gold's use cases does not determine its value. They're like oregano on pizza. You're full of pizza, not oregano.The desire to have something expensive and rare that holds value. This makes people want to have gold. This gives it value. It's not me who ignores reality. You are the one who claims that gold is valued by using it in electronics, which defies logic, and you do it only to justify your erroneous views.

gold previously had the function of money, but this was taken away by central banks. Even this did not destroy gold as an great asset

"desire to have something expensive and rare that holds value" Bitcoin has all these characteristics

So basically, you trash talk about an item that people actually use for non-speculative purposes and sweet talk about an item that has only speculative purpose. How that makes me wrong?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1622
The only problem here is your denial of reality. What I am doing is just describing reality in which everything traded on the market, except crypto, has a specific use. It has a real demand that uses it for specific purposes. Do people demand gold for making jewelry, electronic, etc. Yes. That is reality. This reality cannot change because you think something about gold.

So how exactly am I wrong if I simply described  what everyone can observe? I am not wrong but you are in denial of reality by comparing useful metal with useless virtual coins.

Gold is bad for use in jewelry. In electronics it has been used for the last 50 years and only 7% of the gold ends up there and in your opinion this has given it value for the last 2500 years? Being a poor raw material for jewelry made it the strongest asset of the last 2,500 years? NO! gold's use cases does not determine its value. They're like oregano on pizza. You're full of pizza, not oregano.The desire to have something expensive and rare that holds value. This makes people want to have gold. This gives it value. It's not me who ignores reality. You are the one who claims that gold is valued by using it in electronics, which defies logic, and you do it only to justify your erroneous views.

gold previously had the function of money, but this was taken away by central banks. Even this did not destroy gold as an great asset

"desire to have something expensive and rare that holds value" Bitcoin has all these characteristics
jr. member
Activity: 183
Merit: 1
If you want discussion about your argument open your own topic. This topic is about the difference between speculative and real demand and how that relates to bitcoin/crypto bubble.

So you have no argument for this. You say that crypto has no value because it cannot be used (so it have only speculative value and must fall to zero), and on the other hand you see gold, which has held value for 2,500 years only because it holds value (certainly not because of its use in electronics, which accounts for 7% of its use).

And not thanks to jewelry, because you have to admit that gold is terrible as a material for making jewelry. It is soft and deforms quickly, and other cheaper metals are not aesthetically different from gold, and even if it were, it would be enough to gold-plate the jewelry.

The gold example disproves your claim and yet you refuse to counter-argument.
The only problem here is your denial of reality. What I am doing is just describing reality in which everything traded on the market, except crypto, has a specific use. It has a real demand that uses it for specific purposes. Do people demand gold for making jewelry, electronic, etc. Yes. That is reality. This reality cannot change because you think something about gold.

So how exactly am I wrong if I simply described  what everyone can observe? I am not wrong but you are in denial of reality by comparing useful metal with useless virtual coins.

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1622
If you want discussion about your argument open your own topic. This topic is about the difference between speculative and real demand and how that relates to bitcoin/crypto bubble.

So you have no argument for this. You say that crypto has no value because it cannot be used (so it have only speculative value and must fall to zero), and on the other hand you see gold, which has held value for 2,500 years only because it holds value (certainly not because of its use in electronics, which accounts for 7% of its use).

And not thanks to jewelry, because you have to admit that gold is terrible as a material for making jewelry. It is soft and deforms quickly, and other cheaper metals are not aesthetically different from gold, and even if it were, it would be enough to gold-plate the jewelry.

The gold example disproves your claim and yet you refuse to counter-argument.
jr. member
Activity: 183
Merit: 1
I am not expressing opinion. I am describing reality. And you're the one denying reality with the usual crypto propaganda. You're portraying useless virtual coins as something revolutionary in order the dumpt them on someone else at better prices.

Then refer to my argument. Somehow it passed unvetoed. You only wrote that we ignore your arguments, while you did not address most of them, including mine.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.62873484

This is my post. Based on the data provided - explain to me, how gold keeps its value for 2500 years ...
If you want discussion about your argument open your own topic. This topic is about the difference between speculative and real demand and how that relates to bitcoin/crypto bubble.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1622
I am not expressing opinion. I am describing reality. And you're the one denying reality with the usual crypto propaganda. You're portraying useless virtual coins as something revolutionary in order the dumpt them on someone else at better prices.

Then refer to my argument. Somehow it passed unvetoed. You only wrote that we ignore your arguments, while you did not address most of them, including mine.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.62873484

This is my post. Based on the data provided - explain to me, how gold keeps its value for 2500 years ...
jr. member
Activity: 183
Merit: 1
Well this is nothing but fud! Even though you are entitled to your opinion, I think this very opinion is not needed here. There is no point trying to discouraging us from buying Bitcoin as you are not the first to hold this kind of opinion; in the end, Bitcoin will always prove you all wrong.


All bubbles eventually but inevitably pop. Then, massive sell-offs cause prices to decline, often quite dramatically. The real demand is what stops prices from further decline. With crypto lacking such demand, there is nothing to stop the decline, and prices inevitably must fall to zero.
It is obvious you really have not taken time to study the technology behind Bitcoin and the role Bitcoin is/has been playing in the global financial system. Without Bitcoin, it was a huge challenge sending money across borders in my country and I know a lot of people in various jurisdiction also face similar challenge. This is of of the real utility that Bitcoin offers and that is enough to create the demand. Good a thing, many gambling, subscription and other platforms are integrating Bitcoin payment and that is demand. If you think Bitcoin do not have demand, then you have not been paying attention.  If the price will want to crash, let it crash on my head!
I am not expressing opinion. I am describing reality. And you're the one denying reality with the usual crypto propaganda. You're portraying useless virtual coins as something revolutionary in order the dumpt them on someone else at better prices.
hero member
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Well this is nothing but fud! Even though you are entitled to your opinion, I think this very opinion is not needed here. There is no point trying to discouraging us from buying Bitcoin as you are not the first to hold this kind of opinion; in the end, Bitcoin will always prove you all wrong.


All bubbles eventually but inevitably pop. Then, massive sell-offs cause prices to decline, often quite dramatically. The real demand is what stops prices from further decline. With crypto lacking such demand, there is nothing to stop the decline, and prices inevitably must fall to zero.
It is obvious you really have not taken time to study the technology behind Bitcoin and the role Bitcoin is/has been playing in the global financial system. Without Bitcoin, it was a huge challenge sending money across borders in my country and I know a lot of people in various jurisdiction also face similar challenge. This is of of the real utility that Bitcoin offers and that is enough to create the demand. Good a thing, many gambling, subscription and other platforms are integrating Bitcoin payment and that is demand. If you think Bitcoin do not have demand, then you have not been paying attention.  If the price will want to crash, let it crash on my head!
jr. member
Activity: 183
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-snip-
Hahaha, this is hilarious. Now instead of the difference between speculative and real demand, the responders talk about me. Literally no one wants to talk about the topic at hand. You people either spread the usual crypto propaganda, deny reality that the only use of coins is trading, or do ad hominem attacks. It's like I am talking to some kind of cult.
Most cryptos are speculative products that are only created to make their owners rich, so I confirm your assumption. While I don't see a similar motive in bitcoin where value is determined by supply and demand. Moreover, bitcoin is not only used as an asset that can be traded, but bitcoin is also used as a store of value by some investors who no longer trust banks.

I don't expect you to force an opinion where everyone has to admit what you say, most of it is bullshit. In my opinion, people like you can never trust bitcoin and how people trust it. So stay away because once again, your sermon is not worth more than people's investment.
Store of value is just speculative use. You buy a product with the purpose to sell it in the future and in the meantime you're storing value in that product. That product is store of value by the definition of speculative use. Literally all crypto coins fit that definition. They are all store of value. Some are good, and some are bad store of value. Non-speculative use is something entirely different. This is when a product is used for specific purposes - wheat for nutrition, gold for jewelry or electronics, fiat for paying debt to the banking system, bonds for receiving coupons or face value, etc.

Crypto coins have no specific purpose. They have no real demand. Rather, they are completely speculative. They are useless virtual items that change hands according to the greater fool theory.
jr. member
Activity: 180
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-snip-
Hahaha, this is hilarious. Now instead of the difference between speculative and real demand, the responders talk about me. Literally no one wants to talk about the topic at hand. You people either spread the usual crypto propaganda, deny reality that the only use of coins is trading, or do ad hominem attacks. It's like I am talking to some kind of cult.
Most cryptos are speculative products that are only created to make their owners rich, so I confirm your assumption. While I don't see a similar motive in bitcoin where value is determined by supply and demand. Moreover, bitcoin is not only used as an asset that can be traded, but bitcoin is also used as a store of value by some investors who no longer trust banks.

I don't expect you to force an opinion where everyone has to admit what you say, most of it is bullshit. In my opinion, people like you can never trust bitcoin and how people trust it. So stay away because once again, your sermon is not worth more than people's investment.
jr. member
Activity: 183
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Given that crypto has no specific purpose there is nothing to predict. There's no way to tell whether prices are cheap or expensive. In crypto, speculators pay prices solely on the hope that other speculators will pay them higher prices. They essentially believe in the growth of speculative demand in the future. Crypto is therefore a perfect example of the greater fool theory.
So what's in it for you when some people believe what you say?
I'm sure you will only be considered a troll with some of the assumptions and theories that are generally said by bitcoin trolls, so I think many people are not expecting your sermon here.

So it's better to stop your sermon and continue your other mission.
As a newbie I don't really expect your brainwashing assumptions successfully influence my investment plans in bitcoin.

I also wonder the time the OP takes to write down all this, as he is trying to brainwash or discourage people from investing in bitcoin, and bitcoin has more than one use, as the OP thinks bitcoin doesn't have much value or something like that. If he takes his time and does the needful on the forum, it will help him in a long way because someone cannot just come and start saying what doesn’t have value, so I think the OP has a long way to go if he really wants to have knowledge of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies entirely because the OP still lacks the knowledge of bitcoin as it’s indicated in what he brought here.

What was the psychology behind it, and how did they act to make this a thing? Obviously OP is wrong, and all of those things that he thinks are real and data and so forth are just made up things and just opinions and nothing more. However, we know this, what made OP think that we do not know he is wrong? What made him think that we would believe what he just wrote? That's the interesting part.

I believe with the replies that have been provided on this thread so far, the OP has realised that the whole thing he wrote is not meaningful and it has no use to people because I also don’t see anything meaningful in what he wrote, as I’ve read this twice now, but what can we say? Nothing. The OP is still a newbie. I think he still lacks knowledge of bitcoin, so I’ll like it if he takes his time and goes and reads more about it, as obviously he still doesn’t have knowledge about it since he didn’t know even the use of bitcoin.
Hahaha, this is hilarious. Now instead of the difference between speculative and real demand, the responders talk about me. Literally no one wants to talk about the topic at hand. You people either spread the usual crypto propaganda, deny reality that the only use of coins is trading, or do ad hominem attacks. It's like I am talking to some kind of cult.
sr. member
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Given that crypto has no specific purpose there is nothing to predict. There's no way to tell whether prices are cheap or expensive. In crypto, speculators pay prices solely on the hope that other speculators will pay them higher prices. They essentially believe in the growth of speculative demand in the future. Crypto is therefore a perfect example of the greater fool theory.
So what's in it for you when some people believe what you say?
I'm sure you will only be considered a troll with some of the assumptions and theories that are generally said by bitcoin trolls, so I think many people are not expecting your sermon here.

So it's better to stop your sermon and continue your other mission.
As a newbie I don't really expect your brainwashing assumptions successfully influence my investment plans in bitcoin.
 
I also wonder the time the OP takes to write down all this, as he is trying to brainwash or discourage people from investing in bitcoin, and bitcoin has more than one use, as the OP thinks bitcoin doesn't have much value or something like that. If he takes his time and does the needful on the forum, it will help him in a long way because someone cannot just come and start saying what doesn’t have value, so I think the OP has a long way to go if he really wants to have knowledge of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies entirely because the OP still lacks the knowledge of bitcoin as it’s indicated in what he brought here.

What was the psychology behind it, and how did they act to make this a thing? Obviously OP is wrong, and all of those things that he thinks are real and data and so forth are just made up things and just opinions and nothing more. However, we know this, what made OP think that we do not know he is wrong? What made him think that we would believe what he just wrote? That's the interesting part.

I believe with the replies that have been provided on this thread so far, the OP has realised that the whole thing he wrote is not meaningful and it has no use to people because I also don’t see anything meaningful in what he wrote, as I’ve read this twice now, but what can we say? Nothing. The OP is still a newbie. I think he still lacks knowledge of bitcoin, so I’ll like it if he takes his time and goes and reads more about it, as obviously he still doesn’t have knowledge about it since he didn’t know even the use of bitcoin.
jr. member
Activity: 183
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It's funny how all responders here ignore the argument at hand and just write stuff completely unrelated to it. The argument talks about the difference between speculative and real demand. The usual crypto propaganda for attracting speculators cannot refute it. The difference between speculative and real demand is so simple to comprehend that there is no need to say anything more than what was said in the opening post. Let alone respond to all those ad hominem and non sequitur comments.
Even if you're right, there's far too many people that's sharing the illusion and it's too late to be saying that bitcoin's going downhill because there are big players in the market now and I don't think that they would want the price to go down so fast and them still hodling, they're going to want the ability to control that drop and then get out with a big profit. You could've made your post a bit more organized too, a wall of text isn't an attractive material to read for many.
And again. Why do you think that your prediction about the growth of speculative demand is important? Literally all people that bought crypto coins assume that speculative demand will grow so they can dump those coins on someone else and get higher prices. Otherwise they would not buy the coins as there is no specific purpose for which they can use them. All holders must sell them by definition and they must believe the price will be higher. That's the essence of the greater fool theory. The topic at hand talks about why the assumptions
of the buyers contradict reality.
hero member
Activity: 1190
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Simple reason bitcoin fall to be zero depend with investor bough Bitcoin in higher price and they won't loss their money or becoming zero if selling assets with most cheapest price. I don't know where is crazy ideas coming when speculating with Bitcoin possibilities with be zero values because we are investing when bitcoin on higher price. There are not stupid people want to sell their investment assets with lower price if investing in higher price, need miracle or war crisis if want to see Bitcoin will be zero and there are not any effective yet with money value until ended or world are possibility for all assets investment not only with bitcoin but also anything will be zero.

Stop bad and crazy imagination talking about Bitcoin will be zero values in the future since supply and demand keep balance in the exchange market, have balance between buy and sell order is realistic reason why bitcoin keep having values in the future.
STT
legendary
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I'll object to your basic premise.  BTC has more then one use, more then a dozen uses really and you lack imagination to believe its only one thing.    For an entire world connected digitally but entirely different in many ways, nationally, economically, political, time wise and currency divided this is a unifying online currency standard that is useful.
  BTC is certainly not perfect, but its useful, even if it halved price the use carries on and I dont care about the largest holders, millionaires and billionaires can go elsewhere if they so wish but the basic use of a person with a few dollars exists and thats all we need to justify this system of value nothing more; these are the billions of people who will always matter more, an economy is people and BTC has its economy.
  Even the biggest critics still say BTC has some value in the hundreds, I think you are way off.

Quote
So you spent all this time to pen down along easy to outline something you feels doesn't have value?
lol  Grin


Quote
Quote
The cowrie, a type of marine snail, has very colourful shells which were used as money. It seems that it wasn’t just the colours that made the shell appealing - its small size and durability made them popular too.

Although the cowrie is mainly found in the Indian and Pacific Oceans, it was spent around the world as traders travelled overseas, with parts of Europe accepting it as valid currency.

endured for centuries, making it the most widespread and longest-used currency in history
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/zfx2m39


Its a decent argument, deserves a merit anyway but we do have and have had many previous currencies not commodity based not especially of value in of themselves.

Quote
The purpose of stocks is to represent shares of ownership in or

Quite a few stocks can be completely empty entities.  It might be a worse analogy then you imagine, companies sometimes have no business and so the stock too is fairly flat in describing or even being backed by anything.  Happens more often then would be imagined initially, not always a negative thing but a stock can just be cash only at times (and yes 100% speculative).   Just in my experience from what I've read etc.
jr. member
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Given that crypto has no specific purpose there is nothing to predict. There's no way to tell whether prices are cheap or expensive. In crypto, speculators pay prices solely on the hope that other speculators will pay them higher prices. They essentially believe in the growth of speculative demand in the future. Crypto is therefore a perfect example of the greater fool theory.
So what's in it for you when some people believe what you say?
I'm sure you will only be considered a troll with some of the assumptions and theories that are generally said by bitcoin trolls, so I think many people are not expecting your sermon here.

So it's better to stop your sermon and continue your other mission.
As a newbie I don't really expect your brainwashing assumptions successfully influence my investment plans in bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 1022
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So you spent all this time to pen down along easy to outline something you feels doesn't have value?

This sound so sarcastic and laughable because you have totally miss understood what the concept and ecosystem surrounding cryptocurrencies most especially Bitcoin and it usercase and just like many others have mentioned,  there are several user cases for Bitcoin and that is why you see Bitcoin value increasing at every point even though it faces some challenges from time to time that affects its price but at the end, Bitcoin always recovers.
legendary
Activity: 2954
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It's funny how all responders here ignore the argument at hand and just write stuff completely unrelated to it. The argument talks about the difference between speculative and real demand. The usual crypto propaganda for attracting speculators cannot refute it. The difference between speculative and real demand is so simple to comprehend that there is no need to say anything more than what was said in the opening post. Let alone respond to all those ad hominem and non sequitur comments.

Well, the market is trading and there is a volume of it so there is a demand.  Be it speculative or not as long as people are eager to buy them, it is a demand.  Now how can you say that there is no demand in cryptocurrency?  It has been long stated that Bitcoin is a bubble and so many years have passed and it does not burst yet, instead, several countries are already accepting it as a mode of payment, while others commodities and legal tender.

Now tell me which of those are not a real use case?  
sr. member
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Throughout history, there have been situations of big discrepancies between real and speculative demand. This caused market bubbles, the most famous of which is the tulip one. But never before has there been an infinite discrepancy, with real demand being zero while speculative demand above zero.



Don't expect bubble stories to take over you, bitcoin has gone pass such stage. I started hearing all about the bubble early enough in the forum and yet nothing of such has happened, why would I be scared when the price of bitcoin has increased for how many times after staying down in 2018/2019. The bubble story of bitcoin will not disappear while enthusiast understand the need to invest for the future.
legendary
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Your idea is stupid, but possible. Though I f***ing love Bitcoin, I'll entertain your notion and give you a generous 0.1% chance that it'll crash to zero. You're welcome.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
Of course, bitcoin never guarantees itself it will retain its value forever so any of us may need to consider that 0.1% with doubt. But in fact, that 0.1% seems to matter a lot to anyone who doesn't own bitcoin and tends to hate it, while the 99.9% of people who own bitcoin don't care that much about the industry's possible failure.

I sail alongside the 99.9% of people who own bitcoin, so I'm not going to try to change anything about those who own that 0.1%.
legendary
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www.Crypto.Games: Multiple coins, multiple games
These type of topics never made sense to me. Not the topic itself, not the content neither, I mean what makes someone feel like they need to open up a topic like this? That part is the one that confuses me the most. What must have happened that someone woke up one day and said that they want to write something like this?

What was the psychology behind it, and how did they act to make this a thing? Obviously OP is wrong, and all of those things that he thinks are real and data and so forth are just made up things and just opinions and nothing more. However, we know this, what made OP think that we do not know he is wrong? What made him think that we would believe what he just wrote? That's the interesting part.
hero member
Activity: 1372
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better everyday ♥
Well, that was a fun read, even though it was a little...inaccurate. Let's start with your assertion, which I will call "real and speculative demand," and then we can go on to the market's actual supply and how it compares to your prediction. I agree. But It is a little too limited.

There are uses for bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies outside trade. Ever heard of decentralized finance, smart contracts, or even digital identities? It goes beyond simply "transferring funds online." Fundamentally, Bitcoin functions as a hedge against the volatility of fiat money and centralized financial systems.

It's a little corny of you to compare Bitcoin to the tulip bubble, don't you think? Furthermore, the fact that Bitcoin is decentralized, international, and immune to censorship has intrinsic value.

Your idea is stupid, but possible. Though I f***ing love Bitcoin, I'll entertain your notion and give you a generous 0.1% chance that it'll crash to zero. You're welcome.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
donator
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I disagree with your outcome here. While you can certainly make a case for Bitcoin displaying the greater fool theory, there is most certainly still uses that Bitcoin remains the best at. I don’t think it is without real demand just because you don’t understand why people want to use it. I often do worry about it turning into the definition of the greater fool theory, but I don’t believe that is the case yet.
hero member
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It's funny how all responders here ignore the argument at hand and just write stuff completely unrelated to it. The argument talks about the difference between speculative and real demand. The usual crypto propaganda for attracting speculators cannot refute it.
You create a topic and want responses that match what you want. Hasn't that already happened?
Things that you sometimes find funny are also felt by other people who read them.

I'll be serious. My simple reason why Bitcoin and crypto must fall is because it is time for a decline to occur which is caused by many things. The most basic cause is because demand and supply are inversely proportional which makes prices fall. Market sales are too high, which can cause the price of bitcoin to fall.
I have tried seriously with you and you don't have to make the letters bold because everything here can be read when you write in a regular font.
full member
Activity: 1540
Merit: 219
It's funny how all responders here ignore the argument at hand and just write stuff completely unrelated to it. The argument talks about the difference between speculative and real demand. The usual crypto propaganda for attracting speculators cannot refute it. The difference between speculative and real demand is so simple to comprehend that there is no need to say anything more than what was said in the opening post. Let alone respond to all those ad hominem and non sequitur comments.
Even if you're right, there's far too many people that's sharing the illusion and it's too late to be saying that bitcoin's going downhill because there are big players in the market now and I don't think that they would want the price to go down so fast and them still hodling, they're going to want the ability to control that drop and then get out with a big profit. You could've made your post a bit more organized too, a wall of text isn't an attractive material to read for many.
jr. member
Activity: 183
Merit: 1
Another funny thing here is that besides ignoring the topic at hand, the responders offer automatic generic replies. For example, they see the word "tulip" in the sentence and they automatically assume I am comparing tulips to Bitcoin. Even though the same sentence talks about tulips in the context of difference between speculative and real demand. Then there are usual generic arguments "Bitcoin is like art", "what about fiat" or "altcoins are bs". Although it is obvious from the OP that art and fiat have both speculative and real demand, while altcoins the same as bitcoin have only speculative demand. It's crazy how people are programmed to ignore any rational arguments against bitcoin even when they express obvious realities.

I have only one question: what's wrong with you people? Why are you denying reality so vehemently?
hero member
Activity: 1470
Merit: 555
dont be greedy
When I imagine myself entering an antique store filled with historically significant items, it becomes clear to me.

Ancient antiques or abstract paintings crafted by professional artists always fetch high prices. And then I draw a parallel with Bitcoin, realizing that everyone has their own taste for valuing a unique history and an exceedingly limited rarity.

Have you ever pondered whether the Mona Lisa painting could be used for something more practical than mere ownership? People are willing to spend $867 US dollars on an asset that lacks tangible utility, as you implied, right?

This is what we call the market. We don't know what kind of demand suits each individual.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 5637
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A Simple Reason Why Bitcoin and Crypto Prices Must Fall to Zero

You are partially right, because Bitcoin and what you call crypto are not one and the same, so I can agree that sooner or later most altcoins will become worthless because they have no purpose and sense, except that they serve for pump&dump schemes.

Throughout history, there have been situations of big discrepancies between real and speculative demand. This caused market bubbles, the most famous of which is the tulip one. But never before has there been an infinite discrepancy, with real demand being zero while speculative demand above zero.

All bubbles eventually but inevitably pop. Then, massive sell-offs cause prices to decline, often quite dramatically. The real demand is what stops prices from further decline. With crypto lacking such demand, there is nothing to stop the decline, and prices inevitably must fall to zero.

When you go to compare tulips and Bitcoin, you expose yourself as a person who actually has no idea what he is talking about, because that topic has long since become meaningless and completely incomparable. Those of you who have been repeating the same worn-out phrases since 2009 experience a painful downpour over and over again when you are proven wrong, but that still doesn't stop you from constantly talking about some kind of doomsday for Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not a tulip, a ponzi scheme or anything like that, and you've been writing nonsense on this forum for years using alt accounts - and that's the only fact that matters in this story.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 279
It's funny how all responders here ignore the argument at hand and just write stuff completely unrelated to it. The argument talks about the difference between speculative and real demand. The usual crypto propaganda for attracting speculators cannot refute it. The difference between speculative and real demand is so simple to comprehend that there is no need to say anything more than what was said in the opening post. Let alone respond to all those ad hominem and non sequitur comments.

What is real demand? Certainly a case where people or investors go after that thing. Bitcoin because I wouldn’t generalized it as cryptocurrency has grown in price simply because of people wanting it. The Number of users or adopters are massively increasing isn’t that a demand. Now talk of fiat currency, what makes other currency more superior than the other ones, it is simply the same demand thing. Bitcoin can be use to pay for debts since that’s the only attribute you listed about fiat if only their is agreement to use it to pay for such same thing as other commodities can also be used for clearing debts.

Yuh said something about bitcoin not been used in history, their is time for the start of everything just like how cowries where over throne by some printed papers ( fiat) and also just like the way internet was perceived not to have value, bitcoin is growing in strength.

Here's a thought: you opened an account on Bitcointalk because you saw value in doing so.

Probably to get attention and his pissed no one is giving that to him.
jr. member
Activity: 183
Merit: 1
It's funny how all responders here ignore the argument at hand and just write stuff completely unrelated to it. The argument talks about the difference between speculative and real demand. The usual crypto propaganda for attracting speculators cannot refute it. The difference between speculative and real demand is so simple to comprehend that there is no need to say anything more than what was said in the opening post. Let alone respond to all those ad hominem and non sequitur comments.

sr. member
Activity: 1106
Merit: 391
-snip-

Given that crypto has no specific purpose there is nothing to predict. There's no way to tell whether prices are cheap or expensive. In crypto, speculators pay prices solely on the hope that other speculators will pay them higher prices. They essentially believe in the growth of speculative demand in the future. Crypto is therefore a perfect example of the greater fool theory.

-snip-

I'm too lazy to read what you typed so I'll just quote the part that I think bothers me. If you think that cryptocurrency does not have a specific purpose, you should learn more about cryptocurrency and the purpose for which it was developed. Right now you are like a boomer who is worried that all the devices on their wifi network will be hacked if they install Facebook and that Facebook should be deleted for that reason. What you said is just your personal assumption and a bunch of nonsense. And if you think that there will be people who care here, you should think again, because many people like you have said that cryptocurrency has no purpose and is just a speculative asset, and no one cares.
sr. member
Activity: 798
Merit: 364
What a long and contradicting piece! I think it's safe to say that you're the most confusing person now. You just gave a more perfect reason to start making use or adopting bitcoin. If I may ask once again, does changing gold to jewelries or whatsoever change its status quo? And what about the wheat as well? Does this mean jewelries made of gold are not longer gold? Or the nutritional obtain from wheat make them less wheat? I think when you are able to justify and clarify these questions we can continue to argue about the bitcoin. You ask questions when you seem to don't understand how something works but if you chose to confuse yourself, you won't get the explanation you need.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1622
I can give you 20 reasons why you're wrong, but I don't want to spend an hour of my life on it. So I will start with the first one and maybe it will be enough for you, if not, then know that there is a whole army of arguments behind me.



while gold for making jewelry, ornaments, electronic components, etc.

only 7% of the gold supply goes to real applications and these applications were mostly invented in the last 100 years (electronics).  Before this, the only usefulness of gold was the desire to have gold. Using it in jewelry is also nothing more than a "desire to have gold", because gold does not have aesthetic values ​​that other cheaper metals do not have. Tombac worth 1% of the price looks the same on your finger. Gold-plated any metal also. The desire to have gold, something durable, expensive, eternal, desirable, and whats most important - rare - has given it value for thousands of years. Nothing else and definitely not the use in electronics. And bitcoin has all these features and it already have better stock/flow ratio than gold and it will get even better after halving.

unless you believe that gold's entire value is given by 7% of its use and that it is generally a metal we discovered 100 years ago and before that it was worthless.
hero member
Activity: 1659
Merit: 687
LoyceV on the road. Or couch.
Here's a thought: you opened an account on Bitcointalk because you saw value in doing so.
hero member
Activity: 1064
Merit: 843
Bitcoin and crypto, however, have only one use - trading. Anyone who has ever bought or mined them must ultimately sell them to another speculator because there is no specific purpose for which they can use them.
First of all don't confuse between trading and medium of exchange.

Trading is the buying and selling of securities, such as stocks, bonds, currencies and commodities, as opposed to investing, which suggests a buy-and-hold strategy. Trading success depends on a trader's ability to be profitable over time.
A medium of exchange is an intermediary instrument or system used to facilitate the purchase and sale of goods and services between parties.


Quote
When you hear about the uses of crypto, such as 'transferring funds online', 'spending money privately', 'low-cost money transfers', 'day-to-day purchasing of normal goods', or 'buying drugs' this is saying the same thing with different words. All that just means exchanging products, services or fiat currencies for these virtual coins. Trading is the only use they have.
You're still not understand about decentralization purpose, that's why you can think like this.

Bitcoin make an ability for someone to stay private and not get traced by any centralized entity as long as you understand how to do it. You will not faced any problem like wasting time when the banks employees ask many thing about your wealth and how you get it, you need to give a lot proof and if you fail, your funds will be frozen by them.

Bitcoin also give you security because banks are prone to bankrupt.
jr. member
Activity: 183
Merit: 1
All products traded in the market have two types of demand – real and speculative. The first means that market participants desire products because they need them for specific purposes. The second means they desire them to hold and ultimately exchange them on the market. For example. A desire for wheat to make food or gold to make jewelry, ornaments, electronic components, etc. is a real demand. If, on the other hand, wheat or gold is desired only to be held and later exchanged, that is speculative demand.

The same is true for financial products. When shares are desired for receiving dividends, buybacks or funds from liquidated assets, that is real demand. With bonds, real demand is those who want to receive coupons or face value at maturity. Units of fiat currencies are created with loans from commercial banks and purchases of government bonds by central banks, so the real demand is debtors who need them to repay those loans and bonds. If, on the other hand, the mentioned products are desired to be held and ultimately exchanged, that is speculative demand.

However, in 2009, a precedent occurred. The so-called cryptocurrencies started to appear. They are virtual points that have only speculative demand. Whoever holds them, sooner or later has to exchange them on the market because there is no specific purpose for which they would need them.

A situation where something is traded on the market but has no real demand has never been seen in human history. The only reason products are brought to the market is because real demand needs them for specific purposes. Speculative demand is only a byproduct of real demand. Speculators on the market estimate how valuable products are to real demand and then pay prices according to these estimates. For example. By wheat having a nutritional purpose, speculators approximately know how valuable it is to consumers and whether prices are cheap or expensive. Similarly, by fiat currencies having the purpose of paying debt to the banks and by debtors facing foreclosures in case of default, speculators know these currencies are worth to debtors somewhere in the range of pledged collaterals. Meaning, they will not trade houses for a specific number of currency units if they see that banks take cars as collateral when issuing that number of units.

Given that crypto virtual points have no real demand, there is nothing to estimate. There’s no way to tell whether prices are cheap or expensive. Instead, speculators pay prices blindly - solely in the hope that other speculators will pay them higher, or at least the same prices in the future. Essentially, they believe in the greater fool theory and have hopes of ever-rising or stable speculative demand. The hopes themselves are based on the misconception that the points are 'valuable' because they are stored in a decentralized manner. Alternatively, the misconception is that the points are 'scarce' because crypto protocols limit their supply. In reality, however, value and scarcity come from purpose for which real demand needs something, not from storing methods or protocols. There may be a limited supply of things no one needs and an advanced method for storing them, but it is ridiculous to call them scarce and valuable because of that.

Throughout history, there were situations of large ratios between speculative and real demand. This caused market bubbles, the most famous of which is the tulip one. But never before has that ratio been infinite, with speculative demand above zero and real demand at zero.

All bubbles eventually but inevitably pop. Then, massive sell-offs cause prices to decline, often quite dramatically. The real demand is what stops prices from further decline. With crypto lacking such demand, there is nothing to stop the decline, and prices inevitably must fall to zero.
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