Using change addresses does not increase privacy, just fees

digaran

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Quote from: adaseb on September 24, 2023, 12:18:55 AM

Wasn’t the reason why it’s suggested to use Change addresses so if there is some bug in the hashing of the public key, your chances are higher of not being targeted.

Basically when you spend an output you show your pub key, if you never send your outputs then your public key is a secret. Since the public key is known there is slightly less security. Hence why it’s smart to use change addresses.

Is this correct?

Of course if your "public key" is kept secret, the only way to access your funds is through breaking 2 hash functions, rmd160 and sha256, and it's not about a bug or anything, it's just that if you have a public key, there are solutions to find the private key, these solutions are extremely difficult to solve especially for 256 bit keys.

OP should either use an open source wallet which allows you to turn off the use of change address, or simply sends his bitcoins to only one address, after a few transactions where he sends the changes to only 1 address, he will find out change add or no change add, it's all the same, electrum wallet is good to change such settings.

Quote from: DannyHamilton on September 24, 2023, 12:24:44 AM

Quote from: satoshi on November 25, 2009, 01:17:23 PM

- snip -
For greater privacy, it's best to use bitcoin addresses only once.
- snip -

Such a noob, I hope he reads this topic to learn about bitcoin from OP.🙃

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

- snip -
Ignore all the technical bs idiots these who clearly never used bitcoin in the past are spouting (10+ years ago)
- snip -

Ah yes. I see what you mean now. For example, here's one of those "technical bs idiots who clearly never used bitcoin" giving some of that crazy advice about protecting privacy by using new addresses all the way back in 2009

Quote from: satoshi on November 25, 2009, 01:17:23 PM

- snip -
For greater privacy, it's best to use bitcoin addresses only once.
- snip -

LOL. Clearly this dummy had no idea how Bitcoin works at all.

Obviously it's much better for me to take my advice from this Guessti guy who showed up complaining one day and refuses to learn anything new.

Grin

adaseb

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Wasn’t the reason why it’s suggested to use Change addresses so if there is some bug in the hashing of the public key, your chances are higher of not being targeted.

Basically when you spend an output you show your pub key, if you never send your outputs then your public key is a secret. Since the public key is known there is slightly less security. Hence why it’s smart to use change addresses.

Is this correct?

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

For all you idiots who keep saying I'm wrong.

https://coinguides.org/bitcoin-change-address-output/

Did you even read that article. It literally says you are wrong.

Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

Literally don't need a change address.

Correct. You could just send ALL of your change to the miners as a transaction fee instead, but that would be really expensive. It seems like a much better idea to just send it back to a new address in your wallet, just like the article you linked explains.

Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

Nothing I said is wrong. Roll Eyes

Almost everything you've said has been wrong, but it seems like you know that and are just having fun making things up.

Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

If you think that article is wrong then you are part of the problem not the solution.

I think the article is right, and that you are wrong. I guess that means you are part of the problem, not the solution?

Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

if you keep all your bitcoins in 1 bitcoin address you will always pay the same fee no matter the amount of bitcoins you send - since they are coming from 1 single address and not from multiple addresses.

Absolute nonsense.

Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

Everything is explained clearly in the article I posted.

The article says the opposite of what you are saying.

Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

You do NOT need to use a change address,you do NOT need to change your bitcoin address EVER.

That's probably the only correct thing you've said in all of these conversations.

You do not NEED to use a change address. You can just reuse a single address for your change. It's a bad idea, and it won't fix anything that you're complaining about, but you can do it.

Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

Even that article and many others like it describe how the "privacy" added is questionable.

The article literally says in the 4th sentence, "is one of the key privacy feature of Bitcoin."

It also says:

sending to same address . . . reduces users privacy
change addresses play a key role in improving privacy
to preserve anonymity and to make the job of tracing transaction more difficult change outputs are usually send to a newly created change address

Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

Who ever keeps trying to suggest you don't pay higher fees is spreading pure lies and propaganda. This "privacy" "feature" comes with a cost.

Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true.

Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

TrustWallet actually removed using change wallets/addresses. I have tested it a few times now and can confirm

Ah. I thought you were a troll. Sounds like maybe you're just a Binance shill?

Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

It is very VERY simple unlike these morons are trying to make it - the more addresses your bitcoins get spreads to, the higher the fees will be if you ever send enough bitcoin that needs to use 2 or more of those addresses. If all your bitcoins stay in 1 address the fee stays the same no matter what the amount of bitcoin you are sending is!

That's 100% fabricated false information. Good luck with that.

franky1

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a. when you want to keep the remainder even in a re-used address the remainder value of a transaction goes to a "change address"
(even if you re-use the same address for the change)

the term you are looking for is re-used change address

b. when wanting to spend those remainders. collating each of those amounts is not a single input. its collating multiple inputs from multiple spend receipts called utxo's
(even if you re-use the same address for the change)

so you are still listing many utxo's even from the same address.. so it still adds data to a tx meaning more bytes meaning more sats

inputs of a transaction at data-byte level are not "addresses" but things called utxo's

the only way to save on fee's is to.. when fee's are extremely low collate all of the utxo of your address as inputs and then spend them back to your address as a single output to combine them into a single utxo of a combined amount. so that later when fee's per byte rise and you want to buy something you only have to list one UTXO of the combined amount.
but this does as just said mean making another tx to combine the utxo's meaning a fee is involved to merge the value into one utxo, so should be done when fee's are low

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: Guessti on September 23, 2023, 12:54:33 AM

https://community.trustwallet.com/t/removal-of-the-auto-change-address-feature/155623

Removal of the Auto-Change Address Feature
What is Auto-Change?
The Trust Wallet team has decided to remove Auto-Change address functionality from UTXO blockchains, namely:
Bitcoin (BTC)

Quote from: https://community.trustwallet.com/t/removal-of-the-auto-change-address-feature/155623

Why was the change implemented?
Initially, the Auto-Address change was turned on by default. Then, it was disabled and a toggle was implemented to manually enable this feature. But due to the maintenance cost and the lack of demand, it would be a better experience for all to just completely turn it off.

Lack of demand? How did CZ, Binance, Trustwallet developers know that people do not want change address? They are looking for ways to make bitcoin to be centralized, they created their own centralized coins, they pegged bitcoin and deceiving people to think that they are bitcoin when they are altcoins, and see an obvious lie again and ignorant people like Guessti believed this. If you are looking for a bitcoin wallet, Trustwallet has been one of the worst bitcoin wallet so far with obvious reasons.

LoyceMobile

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Quote from: michellee on September 23, 2023, 06:37:01 AM

I guess it depends on each person who owns Bitcoin and that is the freedom that Bitcoin gives each user. If they are willing to pay fees that may be higher than others, they can have more wallets. But not for those who only want 1 Bitcoin wallet because they don't want to pay higher fees.

Quoting this BS to notify your campaign manager. Is that Royse777? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and didn't read the topic.

michellee

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I guess it depends on each person who owns Bitcoin and that is the freedom that Bitcoin gives each user. If they are willing to pay fees that may be higher than others, they can have more wallets. But not for those who only want 1 Bitcoin wallet because they don't want to pay higher fees.

It is each person's choice, as with privacy issues. Those who have learned much about Bitcoin will choose which makes them comfortable. And of course, it will be different from other people's choices so it's normal if they still stick with their choice.

So it's about comfort, which varies from one person to another. We should not force people to follow ways we think are easy or something else because they may find it easiest.

Guessti

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For all you idiots who keep saying I'm wrong.

https://coinguides.org/bitcoin-change-address-output/

Literally don't need a change address.

Nothing I said is wrong. Roll Eyes

If you think that article is wrong then you are part of the problem not the solution.

Quote from: BitMaxz on September 22, 2023, 07:04:10 PM

Quote from: Guessti on September 22, 2023, 06:55:23 PM

Learn to read for once. Roll Eyes

I explained if you keep your funds in 1 address you won't have the issue of paying higher fees later. You aren't changing the address at all.

As I said even if you only have 1 address to receive funds you will still pay a higher fee if you have multiple unspent transactions from that 1 address.

You can only reduce the fees if you consolidate all unspent transactions into one unspent transaction.

No, if you keep all your bitcoins in 1 bitcoin address you will always pay the same fee no matter the amount of bitcoins you send - since they are coming from 1 single address and not from multiple addresses. Everything is explained clearly in the article I posted.

Ignore all the technical bs idiots these who clearly never used bitcoin in the past are spouting (10+ years ago)

You do NOT need to use a change address, you do NOT need to change your bitcoin address EVER. Even that article and many others like it describe how the "privacy" added is questionable.

Who ever keeps trying to suggest you don't pay higher fees is spreading pure lies and propaganda. This "privacy" "feature" comes with a cost.

EDIT:

Further proving these idiots wrong, anyone having the same issue as me can see TrustWallet actually removed using change wallets/addresses. I have tested it a few times now and can confirm - your bitcoin wallet address stays the same no matter what. (your bitcoins never get sent to a different address)

Transfering my funds from yet another wallet who was using change addresses, the fees were higher because multiple addresses had my bitcoins - simply from sending some bitcoin. (they get as high as $5-$10+ from ONE SINGLE TRANSACTION!!) Now I no longer have that problem.

It is very VERY simple unlike these morons are trying to make it - the more addresses your bitcoins get spreads to, the higher the fees will be if you ever send enough bitcoin that needs to use 2 or more of those addresses. If all your bitcoins stay in 1 address the fee stays the same no matter what the amount of bitcoin you are sending is! Your bitcoins still get spread around even if you receive them in the same address from everyone whenever you send some of your bitcoins out.

You can further confirm what I'm saying is true here:

https://community.trustwallet.com/t/removal-of-the-auto-change-address-feature/155623

Removal of the Auto-Change Address Feature
What is Auto-Change?
The Trust Wallet team has decided to remove Auto-Change address functionality from UTXO blockchains, namely:
Bitcoin (BTC)

Using TrustWallet is the solution to disabling this "privacy feature" back to how all Bitcoin wallets use to work. Thank you TrustWallet!!! Grin

Zaguru12

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Hey OP bitcoin is actually an open source innovation or better still all this HD wallets are, so how about ditching them since they don’t suit your taste and go on and develop a proper wallet that actually suit your need, wallets that don’t save up your change into another address. People that share same belief with you will move there Undecided

Hey newbies do not get carried away by OPs long post, using different addresses for different transactions is the best not only because of privacy but also security. Bitcoin is the latest innovation and as such scammers get to exploit it, example is the dust attacks. Using just one address will definitely lead it to been targeted for dusts attack and we all know how scammers can use this to their advantage. But when you have your bitcoin spread across other address even if the dust attack hits one address you can use coin control to send them out of your wallet without having to taint or contaminate the other bitcoins in other addresses. This and more are the advantages of multiple addresses for different transactions.

LoyceMobile

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Newbies, OP is wrong. This has been discussed on the tech board, but he doesn't want to see how Bitcoin works. Or he's just trolling. Either way, there's no point discussing with him. Do your own research: address reuse doesn't lead to lower fees.

AprilioMP

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I have never carried out a bitcoin transaction, but the explanations that have been answered by friends have made it easy for me to understand with the examples given.
Maybe because I often get used to reading several guides about things I want to learn, such as transactions, nodes and other technical matters.

Have you ever read the transactions section?
https://learnmeabitcoin.com/beginners/transactions Suitable for you and me rather than insisting on ignorance by denying all the answers to answer the problems you are experiencing.

DannyHamilton

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I see you got bored with your trolling over in the technical support sub-forum, and have decided to expand to the bitcoin discussion sub-forum for some new targets.

This has been explained to you a multitude of times. You're either intentionally ignoring what's been explained, or you're too stubborn to believe that you might be misunderstanding something.

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Quote from: BitMaxz on September 22, 2023, 07:04:10 PM

Quote from: Guessti on September 22, 2023, 06:55:23 PM

Learn to read for once. Roll Eyes

I explained if you keep your funds in 1 address you won't have the issue of paying higher fees later. You aren't changing the address at all.

As I said even if you only have 1 address to receive funds you will still pay a higher fee if you have multiple unspent transactions from that 1 address.

You can only reduce the fees if you consolidate all unspent transactions into one unspent transaction.

You have to see how much the OP likes to make a fool of himself and to be obstinate about it. He has no idea how transactions work depending on inputs above all and he goes around giving lessons thinking he has discovered America.

It is easier to understand by making an analogy with banknotes. You have a bitcoin address, which is analogously like a wallet containing banknotes.

If you have a $100 note in your wallet and you pay $50, it doesn't matter whether you put the $50 change in the same wallet or in another wallet. You still have the same amount and only one input.

If, on the other hand, you have $100 in your wallet but in two $50 notes and you have to pay $30, in this case you will take only one $50 note to pay and the change for $20 is also the same whether you put it in the same wallet or in another one, because when you want to spend the $70 you have left you will have two inputs.

But I don't think he's even going to understand that and he's going to continue to make a fool of himself.

albert0bsd

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That recomendation is also for you.

You need to pay extra bytes for each output regarless if it is the same source address or a new one.

But really nobody cares what you decide to do with your address, that is OK

A lot of software allow to do what you actually want to do. It is up to you.

Example sparrow, you only need to set up the change address manually

Testnet: ae1ba8626b2b90a8b75545f455bd1ace6ffff828257410c4ed88464d830960ce

BitMaxz

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Quote from: Guessti on September 22, 2023, 06:55:23 PM

Learn to read for once. Roll Eyes

I explained if you keep your funds in 1 address you won't have the issue of paying higher fees later. You aren't changing the address at all.

As I said even if you only have 1 address to receive funds you will still pay a higher fee if you have multiple unspent transactions from that 1 address.

You can only reduce the fees if you consolidate all unspent transactions into one unspent transaction.

Guessti

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Quote from: albert0bsd on September 22, 2023, 06:54:20 PM

Acutally using a change address, is the way that you need to use to get your change back, so if one of your UTXO is 1 Bitcoin and you only need to send 0.5 Bitcoin, What are you goint to use to get your change Back to you? Of couse a Change address, it can be the same of the source of a new one Address if you ask me i prefer to use a different address each time. But that depend only of your preference

In any CASE you NEED use one Change Address i mean the extra 50 bytes for the extra output will be payed even if the change address is the same than the source address.

The only way to not use a change addres is when you made a transaction without change.

Learn to read for once. Roll Eyes

I explained if you keep your funds in 1 address you won't have the issue of paying higher fees later. You aren't changing the address at all.

albert0bsd

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Acutally using a change address, is the way that you need to use to get your change back, so if one of your UTXO is 1 Bitcoin and you only need to send 0.5 Bitcoin, What are you goint to use to get your change Back to you? Of couse a Change address, it can be the same of the source of a new one Address if you ask me i prefer to use a different address each time. But that depend only of your preference

In any CASE you NEED use one Change Address i mean the extra 50 bytes for the extra output will be payed even if the change address is the same than the source address or not

The only way to not use a change addres is when you made a transaction without change.

Guessti

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Quote from: BitMaxz on September 22, 2023, 06:51:17 PM

It seems you didn't understand how the transaction works like the above said even if you receive a changed BTC to change address from your wallet it does not only happen to change address. Even if you receive it in a single address you will still get high fees if you have multiple unspent transactions having multiple UTXOs in a single address or any address of your wallet can affect the transaction fees(it's all about the weight).

Learn to read. Roll Eyes

I already explained how it works.

Quote from: philipma1957 on September 22, 2023, 06:49:02 PM

Quote from: Guessti on September 22, 2023, 05:42:56 PM

I will keep all my bitcoin on 1 single address thank you and change it when I want.

Not spread it across many different directions/addresses everytime I send some btc causing much higher fees pretending my privacy is enhanced.

What a joke. What a con.

Many ways outside of the blockchain to increase privacy without clogging up bitcoin with such non sense.

I don't care if you think otherwise, I'm pretty mad/pissed/upset about it.

But whatever. Stay ignorant and keep paying higher fees. Roll Eyes

I mean really, do you like when you go to move all your funds at once and realize you really have much less -- cause all the fees that need to happen because now all your bitcoins were spread across many different wallet addresses..

That is appealing to you? OK. Whatever.

EDIT:

For those of you who don't know, pretty much every bitcoin wallet app is forcing you to use these change addresses, and thats why the more you use it the higher your fees have been at random times.

Unless you were sending a small amount and it was pulling that from 1 address, then the fees were normal.

But when you went to spend a higher amount, you were paying higher fees if it had to hit 2, 3, 4, etc wallets that your funds cause "change addressed" to over time.

It wasn't because you were sending more bitcoin, that isn't how bitcoin was meant to work. The fee is always the same no matter the amount as long as all the bitcoins are in 1 bitcoin address.

In the early days when you went to lookup your wallet address on the blockchain you would see all your funds in the wallet.

But now if you do that and had spent bitcoins since then, you'll see they were moved to other wallets. Some funds would stay behind again if you hadn't spent funds since receiving.

This is sick. You don't need this and it doesn't help your privacy not at least in a way thats worth the sick fees you pay over time.

But if you been using an exchange you might never notice, cause they doing it the old way where the fees stay 50 cents to a dollar.

Take coinbase, venmo, cashapp, paypal for example thats what they charge to send btc.

Cashapp lets you send btc free on lightning network but you have to send $25+ otherwise it as an option to pay $1 or $2

If you tried doing this yourself the fees would get out of control over time, because now most wallets for some reason changed to this stupid false privacy enhancement that really does nothing but give you the illusion you have much more privacy. It does cause some people a headache -- but not worth the fees you pay at all over the long run, not even close. And its only getting worse.

and once again using doge and ltc for small transactions stops this problem in its tracks.

this simple fact is not changing any time soon.

You can use bitcoin in a way that doesn't spread your funds across multiple addresses everytime you go to send bitcoin. You just gotta find a wallet that supports it.

BitMaxz

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It seems you didn't understand how the transaction works like the above said even if you receive a changed BTC to change address from your wallet it does not only happen to change address. Even if you receive it in a single address you will still get high fees if you have multiple unspent transactions having multiple UTXOs in a single address or any address of your wallet can affect the transaction fees(it's all about the weight).

Topic: Using change addresses does not increase privacy, just fees (Read 287 times)