Topic: A simpler version of demerits: "dmerits" for every X merits earned (Read 892 times)

I like the wide range of opinions. Thank you for those who left feedback on the idea while following the thread rules

I'm not married to this idea and I was curious about the results when put simply and without bias. The community has spoken, so I'll lock the thread!

Your assumption is totally wrong, you're trying to say that anyone who talks about alt accounts is that OddJobs right? In fact, if you have been part of this forum then you might have seen many reputed members who have talked about alt accounts, and some of them even found out alts of the members with multiple accounts. For your information, I don't have an alt account on this forum and I will never need one.

Your words seem misleading to me, who knows that you might be another alt of that OddJobs? You are talking a lot about the alt account thing, that sounds very shady to me, and there's a chance that you might be an alt of that guy or someone else.

You’re missing the point. I have no evidence at all, neither does Lucius when he accused Ben Codie. He pulled this idea out of thin air and when asked for more evidence he basically just admits it’s a gut feeling based on the flimsiest and unsubstantial reasoning. I could also accuse you of being an alt account of OddJobs. Why? Because OddJobs made a statement about having alt accounts and now you’re also talking about alt accounts. Pretty damn suspicious if you ask me.

You're 100% wrong with your understanding. How could you even think that a reputed member like Lucius needs to own an alt account which's useless? OddJobsForBitcoin hasn't contributed anything to the forum while on other hand Lucius is a known member of the community who has contributed a lot to the community. I suggest you to be careful while making such assumptions.

I usually get startled at the level of IQ some forum members possess - and I convey them in real life setting,... assuming I'm able to convert them in cash, it won't buy atleast a burger...well, i wasn't here to bicker so lemme let it slide.

---

The big question there is - What exactly was the original purpose of creating the merit system? To ensure the obliteration of merit fishers and account farmers right?? It was created as a sort of "rescue alternative", which is already a great barrier to an account farmer and a punitive measure to a dull-headed fellow who doesn't do too much... So what's the sense in implementing a system to fight against the real merit earners?? Which could also incite two logger-heads against themselves??... I DON'T SUPPORT THIS, SORRY!  VOD and OG nasty won't find this funny.!!

Sandra 🧑‍🦰

Deflect from what? First, try to understand what this is about, and only then write something that makes sense. I don't have an alt account on this forum because I've never needed anything like that - and you and other "geniuses" prove the opposite - just don't put me in the same category as those who deal with odd things and have odd ideas in their heads.

The merit system is working well. Trust me, bro.  Why would you want to change something that is so very perfectly fine. Nothing to see here, let’s just move along.

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/03/01/y2JXv.jpeg


I’m starting to suspect you’re an alt account of OddJobsForBitcoin and only throwing around baseless accusations to deflect.

@nutildah, I'm not good at digging into someone's accounts and looking for links, but if we take into account the whole context behind everything that's happening with the @OddJobsForBitcoin account and his public acknowledgment that he has so many alt accounts under his control that he doesn't even know their number - and that one Legendary account just appeared and supported his idea and then disappeared (it was not active since the creation of the topic), then for me that is enough for justified suspicion that it is possibly the same person.

Of course, this is not an accusation, but only my personal observation when looking at the overall picture. Maybe I'm wrong, but when someone chooses silence and ignoring instead of defense, it's not something that works in his favor.

I'm not quite seeing how the two accounts are connected, other than the similarity of these two aforementioned topics. When BenCodie first came back to the forum, I was intrigued by how self-righteous he was, which was a bit out of the ordinary for a non-established account. I looked at his old posts and new ones and saw the theme of domain sales was continuous, which led me to believe the account still belongs to the same owner. Perhaps I was wrong? Would like to see more substantive evidence if that is the case.

This is true, some people try to stay out of trouble, but I believe some don't mind.
My main issue with the dmerit system is that it can easily be manipulated or exploited. There would be too many irregularities.

I can dmerit a person's post simply because I don't like the person. I might give a reason why I did that, but deep down I was only looking for a reason. With the merit system if you see a quality post that you like and want to merit, you're free to do so, if you don't want to or don't have sMerit to give, you just move on.
If a post is so bad it deserves dmerit, report the post to the moderator.

If you don't have me on "ignore", and you read my previous post, then one of the logical conclusions arises - it's about one and the same person. Besides, isn't it strange that the OP has no comment after all on all these comments about his "brilliant idea"?

@BenCodie is apparently only one in a series of accounts bought by the one who introduces himself as @OddJobsForBitcoin. Otherwise, BPIP shows that the account changed its password for the first time on May 20, 2018, and then the owner probably changed as well.

Why would a Legendary user be applauding a dense idea by a low end member that is overwhelmingly rejected by those who have partaken in the poll?

Bad idea.

 I voted no as well. I don't really see the need for a demerit and  just like @plaguedeath rightly pointed, it won't be used properly because users will have a kind of preferential treatment on whom to use this feature on and whom not to. I also heard that it could be a nice idea since altcointalk uses it and I strongly believe that BitcoinTalk is not in any competition with any other site to do better. I feel that the forum will be less fun to be in if most of these stringent rules are applied. Of all our requests where being granted by Theymos, BitcoinTalk will not be recognizable in the near future and I know that change is constant bit there are some changes that will alter the course of things and are best left the way they are.

except I misinterpret that part, I think 15 accounts having most control seems feasible but that would make the workload being overloaded for them even some these reliable members are already having tight schedule in their personal life, People are move with emotions which will still affect this and somehow de-Merit won`t hold strong in this forum like having Negative tags because those who are De-Merited can still earn merits even when they are still breaking the rules except they are tag account can not be limited.

For example if a member is caught as a cheater in campaign or bounties with a tag, that account is ruin to be accepted when it comes to getting loans or joining campaign but except the trust system still stand with the De-Merit system, these cheaters can still earn merits and apply for loans and campaign with a good chance of being accepted while with a negative tag an account is ruin or limited.

Should the demerit system be introduced? Yes it should be introduced but what effects will it have on the forum? It will cause more conflict and would also fulfill the reason it was created. Let's be careful the choices we make because what ever have advantage also has disadvantages. If a demerit button is integrated to this forum, the reason why it was created will be fullfill but I am 100% sure that it will also be used against its purpose. It will cause conflict among members, it will be used as a tool of war among members just like some DT are already doing with the trust system. Some members only give tag to other members in a clear case when it is very necessary to do so but some other DTs are just being so harsh and careless in handing out tag for some nonsense personal reasons. If a DT members got insulted by non DT, they could just use their DT membership to give tag to the user and it is very bad.

Let's not be surprised that one day we might even see a tag from a DT saying, "he or she misspelled my name, I can't trust him, that's why am leaving this tag"

I vote that th Demerit system should come live only on the condition that who ever misused it should be automatically banned from the forum, no second chance should be given.

No matter how unpopular it may seem, I really don't believe in coincidences when it comes to those who have many alt accounts on this forum and try to manipulate other members using them. I won't repeat what I wrote, but for those who missed it -> https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.63722621

Yes, let me demerit people. Let me derank people. Give me the power to burn everything to the ground.
In all seriousness, if Theymos thought this was a good idea, it would already have been done.

I also voted "no", as I see the current score is 43 "no" against one "yes".

It is clear that everyone did not like this proposal because it would simply turn the forum into an arena for conflict, exchange of accusations, and the like, which would turn the forum into something else completely different from the purpose of its creation.

This system can cause many members to waste their long-time efforts to advance their rank due to differences of opinion or personal disagreements with other members.

This will also increase the burden of Mods and waste their time resolving disputes that will arise between members if this system is misused.

I agree with you, but if we say that about 15 accounts control most of Merits distribution, and assuming that the system is not misused, then creating a de-merit system with a list of 20 members, only 5 members needed to agree to de-Merit that post.

I do not like using trust system as a de-Merit system.

To be Frank I don't really think this will work well, it's similar to DT but with time I think it will even fail more than DT. Altcoinstalk is still under development and I don't think when it comes to this Btt needs to adopt any of their systems, though Altcoinstalk was created to be less strict but now that been use against them, in just a month plus after mixers moved to them, the admin have already been facing the abuse of the karma systems.

I stand with NO on the addition of demerit system, if we're already being stress because of the abuse of merit and DT, the demerit will only makes things and frankly Theymos definitely would have thought about this before but he knows it won't solve any problem here instead causing more problem.
After all we know he does not bother about how anyone here view him, rather he cares about the betterment of the forum and once he sees a feasible way of solving this problem he will implement it, just like how he banned mixers though we all hated it but we have come to accept it since we understand his reasons.

Sometimes I think there is no need for all these especially when we have such threads like this,
Known Alts of any-one - A User Generated List Mk IV (2024 Q1) [MODERATED] 🤨🔬,
AI Spam Report Reference Thread and others have been more helpful than anything in bringing order on the forum.

 Though I support nutildah idea, on getting the payment of any bounty cheater caught since even negative tags doesn't stop them from cheating this would be better, since everyone knows that having such related tags has already put anyone having it in edge of never being accepted in a campaign but I guess it will all depend on if the member desires to take the cheaters

I am aware of that thread but wasn't aware the Op of the thread was bursted for account farming. I just checked the thread and discovered that there's an unanswered by question by Jollygood waiting him.

Meanwhile, the merit system is ok. If we seek for improvement it should be to create more sources and not demerit feature which will be misused just as some people are doing DT power now.

A user started a topic about this issue on this thread https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.63714900 and later on bust with farm account. The intention is for personal vendetta to the user that bust him.

The OP of this thread agree on this idea so he continue the topic in this new thread with a poll. Actually, Merit system is already working well because farm account is already less rampant these days since they can’t rank up easily. This feature will not be open for discussion again if the previous OP doesn’t mention this topic because the current merit system is working fine based on its purpose.

I'm surprised like you and I simply do not know where this ugly idea is coming from despite other creative ideas that can move this forum forward. This will certainly move the forum backward which doesn't make any sense. Because theymos and the brains behind the creation of the idea of the merit system just the way it is must have thought so well about the OP's wicked idea and must have wisely condemned it before taking a stance as we see today.

Can you imagine what the OP is clamouring for, it will cause anarchy in the forum if care is not taken. Some people who had given you several merits could determine to remove it one after the other if there is a disagreement between you guys or merely a change of decision. You know what that means? Some who had been promoted to a higher rank could get their status demoted due to this ill-conceived idea.

The way the merit system has been made permanent when you send merits is just the best.

People shouldn't live in fear on this forum, but unfortunately you are correct. Poking the wrong bear could lead to a person losing their way of earning and some just cannot afford that. I don't really think most of the members I respect would engage in that sort of shit.

@OP adding a demerit system would be great if it could be used properly and not be biased. I think that's impossible here.

Voting is not an excellent mechanism for making such decisions. If a vote were held, there would certainly not be a merit system or signature campaigns would not be prohibited.


Will choose Yes, the current merit system needs to be modified and added to DeMerit, but the problem remains in how to implement it. If it is a new DeMerit list, the forum would be very centralized.
Frankly, I do not like the current trust system because of the points mentioned by @Plaguedeath as many are afraid to leave negative feedbacks to avoid be attacked, getting negative trust and less opportunity to join sig campaigns.

In general, in ALTT there is a system similar to a court, where 4-6 members are elected and take action. If it is necessary to make adjustments to the merit system, I suggest creating a similar idea, but frankly, I do not have an ideal idea.

This is a big place and even if theymos wants to moderate, a lot of things will be unnoticed. Theymos can assign some modes to perform the job but it's also some manual job.

Changes are always welcome but for this one my vote is "No".

No, I'll sum it up for you, it's very simple. OddJobsForBitcoin opened the following thread:

What Sort of Signature is "FUCK Royse777"?

In that he basically made up that someone had tried to hire him to put on that signature. As it usually happens in the Reputation section, whoever opens a thread gets in the eyes of the DTs, who start investigating his story, and in this case decodx discovered with blockchain analysis that he has a lot of alt accounts with which he has joined the same bounties and that he has been involved in accounts selling.

When asked why he had broken the rules joining bounties with his alts, he replied:


So, when caught red handed, OddJobsForBitcoin opened this shitty thread talking about demerit and how bad some higher ranked members, like decodx, are doing:

Hey Theymos, There Should Be a Demotion Button

BenCodie thought it was a good idea, regardless of the context of where the proposal came from, and from what we see in the voting results, he seems to be the only one.

Yep, you make a solid point and no doubt that's one of the reasons why adding a de-merit system would fall flat on its face.  If I sat down for about 10 minutes, I could probably come up with a dozen or so additional reasons why it wouldn't be a good idea at all.  Right off the top of my head, I can picture all sorts of abuse by members who might be leaving the forum and decide to give a big 'fuck you' to a bunch of people (assuming they were able to under the hypothetical system).  And I think it would put members on eggshells, sort of like the fear you mentioned.

In any case, this was discussed at least one time that I know of, back when the merit system first came into existence.  The consensus was that the power to de-merit a post would do more harm than good.  And hell, it doesn't really matter what the community thought about the idea.  Theymos obviously snubbed it then, and I don't think he's likely to change his mind no matter how well laid out one's argument is. 

I voted NO!
But why this sudden interest in demerits?;
What has happened?;
Are we not the problems of ourselves?;
Sugesting demerit function means there's merit saturation;
This kind of posts make theymos to keep deaf ears at merit sources applications;
We all agreed that the forum needs more merit sources;
We also on ourselves are suggesting function to demerit someone.

Exactly this. Recently, there was a case of abuse on Altt, so the admin deleted all karma points.
Something is different here and I wouldn't expect theymos or moderators to monitor possible abuses or organized demerit user profiles.

The other forum Altcointalks has this plus and minus karma the same features OP wants to be added, OP's suggestion here is very premature why not monitor the other forum first if it's going to succeed or fail so you have your model of merit and demerits so you have a build-up of your argument.

Why this sudden collective interest for a demerit function?

I don't see why, is it because of the airdroped merits? even those who have a majority of airdropped merits don't bother anyone either. We can all already see who has earned merits and in what proportion on Bpip or with the web extension, this is not misleading for anyone (I mean campaign managers etc..) ; for example with OP:


As for the others, apart from airdropped merits, I'm not such a hater myself lol. So, no real need for demerit imo.

In any case, for the moment the result of the poll look pretty clear:

I voted no.

I basically have 2 or 3 ideas a month about things that might make sense for Bitcointalk, but I keep most of them to myself, because after the initial excitement wears off, I ponder them more deeply and almost always come to realize that they are flawed in some subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) way and/or that they would throw off the balance that theymos has (presumably) worked so hard to achieve. It's really hard to find things that would be strict improvements (that is, ideas that would have nothing or almost nothing but upside if they were implemented). It's easier (though still hard) to find things that might/will create new problems but that you're almost certain will solve an even bigger problem (or set of problems) in exchange. So, if I were you, I'd start by asking: "What is the problem (or set of problems) that I'm aiming to solve?". If you can't come up with a really clear problem-statement, then, in my experience, it's usually not worth unpacking/debating the details of the solution (at least, not yet). Another way to think about it (just abstractly, I mean; there are no general-purpose units that I know of that would let you reason this out concretely), is that if you can't estimate the magnitude of the problem(s) being solved, then you have nothing to weigh against the magnitude of the problem(s) being caused.

(I mean, I know that sometimes the answer to something can present itself before you actually know the question, but, in general, that's a really inefficient way to work. A semi-related example that comes to mind is that I think the constant factor of 0.5 in the sMerit calculation could be swapped out for a rank-dependent value: that is, instead of the per-transaction sMerit calculation being something like sMeritBalance += meritsReceived * 0.5, it could be something like sMeritBalance += meritsReceived * LUT[receiversRank], or even something like sMeritBalance += meritsReceived * LUT[receiversRank][sendersRank]. In either the 8-entry 1D LUT case, or the 64-entry 2D LUT case, the values could all be set to 0.5, which would keep things working like they currently do, but, I have a hunch that experimenting with those values could have multiple benefits: it's easy to come up with LUTs that would make it much harder for unestablished accounts to rank each other up, or LUTs that would make the merit system less source-dependent by generating sMerit a little more generously for the higher ranks, etc. but because I came up with this idea before I had a specific problem in mind, I've just been sitting on it, struggling to arrive at a really convincing argument for why it should be implemented. But, I also can't just push if off my plate, so to speak, because I think it's likely the solution to something, I just don't know what.)

I saw this thread earlier but I decidedly to wait for comments  
The demerit of a thing will mess things up so bad in my opinion but if we decide to bring it in then there should  be a negative effect on the issuer as he or she must sacrifice merit to do that and it has been proposed by @LoyceV. This should really show how badly a user need to sacrifice his/her merit  to demerit another user

Exactly this why i am against it to be honest, we will be causing more drama than we already have on hand. The merit is already a one way function and the whole reputation board is filled with drama adding another end will just create more problems. The people supporting it are only looking at how perfect they want the system but we can’t get that spontaneity or transparency no matter the rules we set or twerk here, even bitcoin that brought us here is not total spontaneous, going for a perfect system only creates more problems.

My only option if ever big T consider it is it should be restricted to the person that sent that merit, they should be the only one to take it away and it shouldn’t been added back to their smerits too.
My reason for this is maybe you sent an excess mistake due to mistake like we read on the forum and you feel the post doesn’t deserve that much merit you can take it back. Or you merit a post that ended up to be a plagiarized post, you can take it back too. But still if you look at this there will still be problems, so the best is leave it like this

So far this is the result of the poll
Yes   - 1 (6.3%)
No   - 15 (93.8%)
Total Voters: 16

Those who voted Yes understand that there's going to be abuse, we are not speculating we just foresee the scenario based on all our experience here in Bitcointalk


Total mess indeed.

I have voted "No" on the poll because I think dMerit system will ruin the current level of this forum as it could create a dMerit war between members of this forum. The forum is a good forum but there are always those members who disagree with someone, and they don't let such people to grow on the forum no matter how well the other member is contributing. The dMerit system will make job of such people easier and one its implemented such members could easily dMerit and reduce the ranks of those members who don't agree with them or who share their own honest opinion about things.

I know that the merit system is also not at its best, because if you notice the flow of merits then most merits are given to those members who are either part of a Local board or to those who are already established members with thousands of merits. This lets a huge group of members to receive way less merits than what they deserve but who cares about that? So my simple suggestion is to allow the current system of merits and make no changes to it at the moment. If change is really necessary then it should be improving the current merit system instead of add a dMerit solution.

I could only think that if this is implemented this will be worse than the how the DT works before, too much hate will be around.

Reddit have this kind of way to + and - karma but the good thing there is, sender isn't visible to all users and you can do it to anyone without time restrictions unlike on altcoinstalks, so hate is implausible but will only push of quality and friendly posts, it's also the same thing for merit-only karma system.

Even if you add 1 demerit for every 50 or 100 merits, the system will not work, as taking away 1 or 10 merits from someone will not change absolutely anything, because to remove 1 merit or downgrade an account hundreds or thousands of merits are needed...

The suggestion is valid, but it doesn't make sense to implement it on the forum. The current merit and trust system already fulfills its purpose very well.

I love the intent and I honestly stand behind creating features that would allow us to protect and improve the post integrity in the forum, but I don't think demerits is the way to go here.

Bitcointalk's got its fair share of merit hoarders, trolls, and merit-hoarding trolls. Few years ago we had problems with the trust-rating being abused (during the Yobit Scam breakout) where people just threw in negative trust points to anyone regardless of if they are being very honest or what not. We don't want the same thing to happen yet again with another feature that could be abused just as much if not more here. We get heated arguments in the forum every now and again, people could easily throw in demerits against those they don't agree with to further fuck with them, regardless of how sound their arguments are during the discussion. Ergo, someone's bound to get punished for being very sensible, a direct contradiction to what we're clearly pushing for.

Pretty sure the forum's moderators and Theymos have been keeping a close eye on those who are creating posts that do not contribute shit to the discussion, I say let the mods do their jobs and delay citizen justice for now until we actually find a helpful solution that would not harm people for being themselves. Demerits are a good step forward but it's not the final recipe we're looking for.

That should be at least 100 Merit per 1 deMerit. And, to up the stakes, using 1 deMerit should reduce your own Merit count by 10. Let's make it a challenge.

You're misreading this data. The "569" is the sum of all deMerits plus the Merits sent by "userID 0".

I Wonder why this suggestion still stands for some members as it literally makes no sense why we should have a demerit system.
Would op be happy to wake up and see all his merit burned same way he had mentioned? If it were a good suggestion like those I've seen from so other members, the forum admin, Theymos would have by now implemented it on the forum. But it's of no use and it's function is still unreasonable.
This suggestion would only complicate more things on the forum. As no member will be Happy having seen their merits removed. For me, the trust system is good and enough to punish any spammer it offender like stated on the first op. If someone goes on spamming or abusing the merit system then they should be tagged as enough negative tags from dt members on their account will render it useless.

my vote is no. my answer is simply because there's no good reason provided by OddJobsForBitcoin for this suggestion to be implemented.

Altcoinstalks uses it . We could use it but it only is a way to fuck around with peoples heads.

I know this forum and people may gang up on someone to strip enough merits to lower someones rank.

Others would rally round and add merits to help the guy out and it would be a fucking mess..

I agree with @Mia Chloe's idea, in addition, it's already very difficult to climb the rankings after implementing the merit system, which means that good posters are not recognized enough and while some users post things without much meaning they gain more merits than the others.

Don't get me wrong, I think the merits system is working very well and fulfilling its purpose, but as not everything is perfect, if it's already difficult to climb the rankings, imagine if we had a demerit system, the intention is good, but the opposite effect can also occur, this can make good posters or newbies simply give up on the forum, especially newbies who are just joining and are faced with the giant challenge of at least progressing to Sr. Member.

Furthermore, if have a demerit system, users with bad intentions or those with personal problems could ruin another's reputation without good enough justifications, disqualifying purely on their arbitrary ideas without something that really justifies it.

Let me start by saying demerit would be rubbish. Theymos knew this and that was why he did not included it at all. This forum is good as it is. Just only merit and smerit system is enough. Nothing should be added as we are achieving good post quality. If demerit is going to be added, it is not going to cause any increase in post quality. Or why did you think it would be better if it is added? I see no good reason.

Themos drafted this idea in Merit & new rank requirements but he states clearly that he does not want to deploy it.


theymos actually stepped in and did some demerit transactions in Bitcointalk merit transaction history.

If you see some bad posts received merit, you can report it to theymos and hopefully demerit transactions will be executed by theymos.

demerit with 569 demerits.

The suggestion is good, but it won't work, why? because people are scared.

Take a look with the current trust list and feedback, many users are afraid to distrust the big names even though they makes mistakes e.g. leave a negative feedback due to personal conflict, leave a positive feedback because the user kind, has higher position etc. Instead of correct their mistakes, you could be distrusted by them even you have no mistake and most people will silent because they're also scared.

Merit is only for high quality post, right? but there are some people get merit by posting an image without any words. If it's posted by respectable user, will you believe someone will dmerit his post? I bet no.

Firstly let me start by asking, where is this merit demotion idea coming from? If it is from altcoin talk well it won't work. The merit system has been around for a couple of years now and if you ask me , it is actually doing its job of fishing out spammers.

As long as the merit circulation on this forum is going as expected there should be no need for these suggestions. I am very sure Theymos is at the back door watching everything on this forum no wonder he hasn't been accepting merit source request for quite some time now since the merit system is quite ok as we speak.

You see the demerit idea will only bring more reasons for people to just ruin the account of others by constantly demeritting those they hate.

None of these really matters since theymos decision is what counts but I doubt he will agree with this. He will probably ignore like most times .

All credit/merit should go to OddJobsForBitcoin's thread, "Hey Theymos, There Should Be a Demotion Button" for the inspiration of this simplified idea that may be easier to implement.


Poll: Should "dmerit" be added to allow a member to demerit (-merit) another member?
- Yes.
- No.

Specification:
- Demerit a member = burn x merit and log the burn in the profile.
- Effect: 1 dmerit -1 merit
- 2 (or more, TBD) Merits earned = 1 dmerit

Discussion guidelines
- If discussing please stay on-topic and provide constructive feedback, not drama or unrelated discussion.
- Discussions and suggestions for a 2nd refined poll would be appreciated.

First thoughts:
- How many merits to earn 1 dmerit?
- Would a tweak to smerit like 1 merit = 1 smerit be appropriate if dmerit were implemented?
- Why would anybody not want this (if they either aren't an alt account or a poor community member/pest?)

Votes reasoned in thread (votes made in poll):
- Yes 0 (1)
- No 0 (2)