Topic: a society question about prison time - page 2. (Read 598 times)

There are different classifications of penalties of imprisonment. From light penalty of arresto menor to afflictive penalty of reclusion perpetua. Those penalties has three periods, the minimum, medium, and maximum. These penalties can be affected of What is the participation of the accused in the crime, if they are  accessories, accomplices, or principals. The penalties can be decrease if there are mitigating circumstances and can be increase if there are aggravating circumstances. As of today, here in our country, the penalty of death is obsolete, but the government is planning to revive such for the penalty of heinous crimes.

More like he got fatter since he's not walking around with his "friends" and he's eating on time. As for ex-cons finding it hard to find a job, I believe there are companies that are hiring ex-cons as part of their social responsibility initiative but those are far and between and can't give every ex-con a chance.

Also link me this "fish ass guy". I'm a meme normie and it might have went past my radar.

The thread title is 'a society question about prison time'... and we do need to take into account the society aspect.

In the UK, mainstream political opinion is to an appallingly large extent determined by tabloid hysteria. Our 'democracy' is heavily influenced by witch-hunts, hate-campaigns, and the general stoking of the fires of prejudice. This wouldn't of course be effective if every voter took the time to think for themselves and question what they are told, but unfortunately many people just don't understand that the right to vote comes with the attendant responsibility to be well-informed.

Against this backdrop, I think the choices that a UK government can make whilst remaining in power are somewhat constrained.

There are more enlightened views in other countries, as this report on a norwegian prison demonstrates.
The UK government - whichever party was in charge - would never decide to try something like this, the fear of the inevitable tabloid outcry would prevent it. The public here at least care far less about dry stats on reduced recidivism than they do about stringing up whoever they are told is the villain of the day.

I saw some interviews with ex cons on youtube and they were pretty disappointed with what was waiting for them on the outside. When you're a violent offender it's really difficult to get a job. Employers are afraid of you and there's a lot of non-violent offenders waiting in line so they will always choose those.
Their prison tattoos also become a problem outside. People see their gang affiliation and don't want anything to do with them. They are ghuman trash, but don't feel like that until they're back in the society. The society actually tells it to their face and this is the tipping point for most of them. They either break and become addicts or go back to violence.

Can we change it? Yes, but the politicians prefer to act like it's fine since the house isn't falling on their heads yet. They see the cracks but prefer put some fresh paint over it hoping that it will last until they're out of office and then it will become a problem for someone else.

Probably due to lack of tan (and vitamin D from the sun). They should add balconies and terraces for them to sunbathe. Imagine how the morale would rise.


-Look it's that fish ass guy!

I actually know someone who looked healthier after being in prison. But yes, it's back to crime afterwards for many ex-cons. The stigma of having jail time meant that they'd find it even harder to support themselves. I know some prisons offer education as well as training but unless the person decide to build his own business his history is going to haunt him.


Reminded me of what I read that Roman husbands are allowed to "sodomize" their wives' lovers if they were caught. They use objects like fish or radish for this. No prison time but that guy ain't showing his face in public for a long time (well there's the possibility of death from the ordeal but yeah...).

i know i have in some post described how things are. but they are not working and some prisons dont have some of the luxuries nor the hefty penalties which you describe as the heaven or hell 2 sides of prison. so my topic was about if things were to change.. how and in what way.

for instance if someone finishing their 2 year sentance. is not just put on the street with just a taxi fare. but actually spending the final 6 months actually sorting themselves out with a job.

for instance there are many 'public sector' jobs that are low grade (cleaning public toilets, community gardens) which could be dedicated to ex-cons thus ensuring a better chance of retaining a job and 'starting a new life' compared to circumstances before incarceration.

re-offending for small things like stealing foed usually happens because when released all they have is a taxi fare and a criminal record meaning they can go months without a steady income(thus needing to steal to survive again) while trying to plead to private businesses to give them a chance. however if they have a job at release. (as a condition of being released) then the re-offending rate goes down. and they can use the fact that they have a job, as a means of showing future next employers they have some potential and some experience to move up and into better employment

You guys describe things exactly as they are. If you look at what the average prisoner does in prison, it's a combination of paradise and hell. They have time to work out, eat 3 meals a day, get free laundry, medical care, always a warm place to sleep, often a TV and a radio, they get to visit family, sometimes even a bit of gay love if you're into these things.
They can go to school, pray at a chapel, you name it. Many hard working people can't afford such pleasures.

Then there's hell when you can get beaten up, robbed, even killed for a pack of cigarettes. You get to see other inmates being bullied, raped. People come out of the system damaged and often unable to find a job. The only way for them to exist is to go back to their criminal life and if it leads to prison again so be it. It's better than living in a cardboard box and begging.

We had similar way of punishing criminals worldwide. Then came the humanist, these worthless people would shout out everytime the rapist and murderer are treated like they need to. According to them criminals should be rewarded for their deeds with free food and shelter without doing anything which are funded by the tax from the sufferer and normal law abiding people works hard to earn their own living.

cant pay for a drink of food taken from a store or bar. then yes work it off in labour. and also not just a probation officr but a social worker and a employment support officer to sort out th underlying reason why they needed to steal instead of just buying it.

physical fight. just like car insurance. who ever caused the damage pays the costs(legal and hospital and any property damage)

any kind of rape. yes definetly public named and shamed. but it has to be rape. not just getting caught peeing in public or grabbing an ass.

rape of kids. definetly castration. and heftier punishment
(im not into violent beating morally. but if i seen a rapist get beaten up, i wouldnt stop the fight)

as for execution. i say not immediate execution incase there was some vague chance that it was a false charge. so give a couple years to have a couple appeals chances. and then obviously with 3 verdicts of 3 trials showing guilt beyond reasonable doubt. then execution could be considered

in a country like america where they say people are free to bare arms.. but at the same time if the police see someone holding a gun(as their right to do so).. for police the first thought is to shoot the guy, the second thought is to get thier story straight that it was 'defence and justified suicide by cop' which is a bit of a weird circle of should people be allowed to bare arms

so if the law allows people to be killed if involved even in a petty crime via 'suicide by cop' then i think the execution chair should be allowed, otherwise its hypocritical that cops get to be judge jury and executioner

I'd rather if the prison system was disbanded in the most part. I'm a supporter of radical steps.

You commit a petty crime, you get forced to make it back to the victim. Don't have money to pay back - pay with whatever you have like your time.
Example: a thief gets caught stealing from a store you make him pay a fine or clean the floors.
2 guys fight in a bar over a girl - nobody goes to jail, they pay for the damages and eventual hospital bills.
Somebody rapes your daughter - he gets caught, convicted, you have the right to beat the shit out of him, his face is in the news and he gets branded for life as a rapist.
I'd only put murderers behind bars and mass murderers, especially those animals who rape and murder children should be executed in public.

Prison is a overall failure. Convicted criminals should do force labor according to their crime. Any prison time below 3 years should go under vocational training making them able to stand on their own when they get out of jail. Anything above 3 years should be spent 75% of time in forced labor in manufacturing, mining and cleaning. And the rest 25% for training them to settle back in society.

I am really against of sending people who consume drugs or alcohol to prison.
These people are not criminals - but they should be treated as people who need help.
Instead, people who sell drugs are criminals - those who make money when others feel depressed and try to get a gateaway from this situation.

though i kinda like the idea of donating a body part in exchange for avoiding the executioner. i however think. maybe a visit to the executioner and being put under anaesthetic and having more than a kidney removed while on life support. save maybe 11 people.
and then once all organs harvested. then given the second needle that ends the execution process for good

but then in both cases of just a kidney and whole body organ donation scheme. i can easily see that turning prisons into a 'for-profit' organ farm. incarcerating people just to keep up demand. EG arrested because of no crime but being o- blood type
(imagine it similar to claims of incarcerated just because of colour of skin, but this type blood type)

and the flip side
for those actually doing major crimes
what you may see happen is people get time off their sentence simply for blood donation because each 'giving blood donation can save upto 3 people' thus mathematically becomes more of a lighter sentence than a kidney donation
EG 24 donations a year = upto 73 lives saved thus 73 years off a life sentence. making a killer doing life for murdering 3 people at 25years per crime get released in just 2 years.
.. all for just sitting in a cell and having a needle stuck into him 24 times. which most junkies(who needle up daily) wont see as punishment or rehab but just an easy year vacation, all expenses paid

firstly a cell is not some 3 bedroom house, its a single room. secondly a cell has 2 people in it. so its math of 2 rooms to get to $10k
so if you exclude a 3rd bedroom, exclude a dinning room, kitchen, living room. then heating 2 rooms is cheap EG £1 a day. yep i can heat 2 rooms for £1 a day which is £365 a year ($500 a year) i aslso calculated the 'common area' sch as halls and kitchens. and such too. and per 2 people the total came nowhere near £3k a year($5k) to have the total of $10k i put aside.
i put $10kcoz i was being generous even though i done the math of far cheaper.

if you are paying £8k on electric/heating for a 3-4 bedroom house then i think  its time you switched


unlike a housing situation of 3-4 people bathing baths and using a washing machine every day to wash just 2 t-shirts at a time,
prison cells are 2 people only given a few minutes to shower(thus water economical)
prison cells are 2 people who use industrial laundry that takes masses of clothing in one cycle(thus economical)
again they dont have swimming pools, bathtubs, back garden fish ponds, nor do they ned to wash their car's or garden patio's  so the water usage is lower. and again i put numbers up to $10k to be generous.

and again if your paying £8k for water bills each year then its time you get your supplier to sort things out

new piping is not fitted daily. or weekly. infact in many prisons piping has not be dealt with in 50 years.
so one pipe-for-pipe replacement in say 25 years is only 'hundreds' a year

also the underground mains is cheaper. as prisons have basements thus no JCB diggers are needed within the prison walls. just plumbers with hard hats. thus cheaper and faster to repair. the piping within the prison
(the 'mains' pipe to the prison is coverd by the water company)

personal note: yes i do think about the details. i didnt just throw random number around nor pick a lowball number, i actually exaggerated the numbers in many cases to cover many variables and still there is spare funds left over that seem to be unexplained

i think i said my peace above. my math was based on a 4 person 1 guard calculation. and then was generous ontop to add more for the common/shared area.

prison guards salary is already covered in the math i done whether they stood in prison or in an ambulance it doesnt matter. its the same amount
as for surgery.. actually thats the NHS budget not prison budget. but i will accept this variable as america and other countries may not use the national health budget but instead require it to come from the prison budget.
but we are still at a point of based on 4 people 1 guard how many times a year would one need medical assistance to rack up $10k a year

if your family of 3-4 are costing you £8k in national insurance or for american readers $10k in medicare then something is off with your accountants sums. maybe your accountant is syphoning funds from you


is only £24k which just goes to show how low costs actually are
.. i really think its time you change accountants if your household bills are £8k for heating and £8k for water for a 4 bedroom house
manypeople can live on basic rations in the UK for less than £12k a year (benefits: living and housing)
so yea £24k sounds about right for the excess for guards and such

but the 'prisons' get £35k a year per inmate all in. so thats £11k in question
not as bad as america's $200k+ in question

they dont get large steaks in prison. its more like meatloaf and instant mash

I'm not a fan of prison system. I'm actually totally against it. Well, for some cold hearted crimes, I sometimes get emotionally charged and feel a bullet to the head will be good, but that would just give police too much power.

I feel like human resource shouldn't just go waste. A person might have stolen let's say million dollars from bank. Once he's caught, he will be sent to jail for the rest of his life. But is it really necessary?

The million dollars would be recovered somehow by the bank. And if we put the person into forced employment, he would generate a living and also contribute something to society.

Same goes for murder. If someone commits murder, he shouldn't pay it with his own life by getting executed. I feel that, he can however pay it off by saving another life. How? Well, just take one of his kidneys and donate it to an urgently needed person. Voila! He just saved another person's life. Now give him rest and some employment under strict supervision. People would say taking his one kidney would be against his right? Well, taking his life with death penalty isn't worse?

The universe with its patterns formed life with an astronomically low chances, we shouldn't just waste the lives and resources simply by passing and executing void and useless laws.

There's been a lot of political debate over the years of what a prison should accommodate for. Its been a much debated topic of only using a prison for serious offenders. I would tend to agree, and although the general consensus that a prison is used to rehabilitate the offender that rarely ever happens, and normally results in a life of crime after being released, and multiple remissions into the prison system. I would tend to agree that prisons should be used for only serious crimes committed, and for those that are a danger to society.  

This is an interesting suggestion. Although, how that would be enforced would also be very difficult. There's a plethora of privacy issues involved with this, and not just for the person its suppose to be monitoring, but also the members of the public. A partial solution to this would to only turn on the camera when they enter a shop. Using something similar to the stolen goods detectors at the doorways of shops could be used to turn on the camera when entering, and then off when leaving. However, this doesn't prevent 2 issues;

1. Covering up the camera.
How would you enforce this? You could state in the terms of surveillance with camera that they aren't allowed to cover it up for an extended period of time. However, for someone to steal something it only takes a matter of seconds, and covering the camera can be disguised as simple as putting on a coat or turning the body in the opposite direction. You would need to be able to ensure that the camera can't be tampered with, can't be covered, and has full vision of the hands, and legs are all times.

2. GDPR
Filming in the pubic domain, and using that for evidence can be a tricky matter. I'm not sure what the status of this is over in the USA. However, I volunteer for Mountain Rescue over here in the UK, and we've had talks about using body cams to protect us, but also for insurance. The police use them, and we thought being a charity we might be able to do the same. After all, we are often supporting the emergency services by either location criminals on the run or body retrieval. We've had team members attacked by casualties (often due to drunk people) that we are trying to help. Despite our best efforts, we came to the decision that the amount of work to get that approved could be an issue. Filming, and using that footage as evidence can be tricky even when we mostly operate on the mountains where there's less people roaming around.

I've known people who have worked in the prison system here over in the UK even some of the more notorious ones around London. As far as I can tell from them talking about it there's a lot of waste, maintenance, and travel costs. If you're cooking for hundreds of inmates then you're going to have waste no matter what. I know people in the UK like the dramatize the whole prison system, and that they don't get a lot to eat etc. However, they definitely do. The standards in the UK are much more than those in Thailand for example.  Heating every year would likely be a lot more than 10k. Take your house for example which costs a few hundred pounds per month, and compare that to a full sized prison which has separate rooms, and has to follow certain laws, and regulations.

Same goes for electric, heating and water. I've worked in the water industry, and I can tell you its not cheap. Universities, and prisons have to go through regular sampling procedures which costs them every time. Where as normally the water board would be sampling the local reservoirs, and do the occasional house call prisons, and school systems need more checks throughout the year. That's without including the amount of water that would be used in a prison system which I'm not even going to try, and guess. However, if we consider the more irregular unexpected costs such as if there are any issues relating to infrastructure being compromised then that would require repair. However, to carry out such a repair where you have hundreds of people requiring water they would need to put in a bypass system in order to get potable water to the inmates. When a water pipe has been compromised it will need to be re-chlorinated, and sampled again adding to the cost. Depending on the length of the water main is how much it will cost, and I'm talking a piece of 63mm pipe of hundred meters of so costing in the hundreds, and a prison system would require much much larger than a 63mm piece of pipe. These are separate contractors to the government so there's no real mate rates in this business. An alternative is isolating the damaged pipe, and going "on boil" which is simply boiling the water temporarily until the water pipe is fixed. However, this would add to electricity bills, and when the pipe has been fixed would still require to be re-chlorinated, and sampled. The water industry is a multi billion pound industry, and England actually pays multi millions of pounds per year to Wales, and Scotland to send water down to them. Water is cheap for a standard house with only a few people living in them. However, when you consider prisons are housing hundreds of people at a time the price starts to rack up considerably.  

Travel costs have to be considered also. When a prisoner gets ill they either call a doctor in or they have to escort the prisoner out. Remember, that all medical costs are covered by the tax payer, and therefore if a inmate requires surgery the justice system incorporates this isn't their costs. However, then there's minor things such as medication costs, and painkillers. Yes, prisoners have full rights to receiving medication when they are ill, and has been approved by a doctor. Medication isn't cheap. Then there's dental costs, and other health issues that need to be taken care of. There's simply too much to list, and probably is why the government don't give a full breakdown on what they've spent their money on.

Although, I'd like to see some accurate statistics of the running costs of a prison which depict what everything is spent on. Although, I don't think that sort of data has been released to the public. Instead, they distribute a more general outlook of the running costs of the whole prison system. Check out this report from the Ministry Of Justice: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/653972/costs-per-place-per-prisoner-2016-2017-summary.pdf

Although 79k USD sounds a little steep per inmate its not far off the reported statistics of the UK (per inmate). Being around double the amount compared to the UK. Which, honestly could come to down to cost of living comparison, and other things such as more food per inmate etc. It is America after all, and we all know they like to do things bigger

many countries that have the positive view of rehab call their prisons 'correctional facilities' as oppose to prisons 'incarceration facilities'

though america is very much known to just lock up and forget the inmates in 'correctional facilities' by not offering them any rehabilitation services/education/incentive to do better


(im british but most people in the btc community is american so i sway the context i talk about in their direction because they seem to hate it when using british or european examples)


whats most alarming to me about the topic is how much is spent and what its used for
EG for america 2.3mill inmates yet the national budget is $1.82bill
thats $79k budget per inmate on average
but the thing that alarms me most is that for every 4 inmates there is only one staff.

so for $316k budget for the 4 inmates only pays for 1 employee

imagining the staff salary get $30-$40k you have to ask where does the other $276k go

think about it a $2 a meal budget for 3meals a day for 4 inmates=$24 a day= under $10k a year
laundry. lets call that $10k
electric, heating, water call that $10k

thats still leaves $246k in question

Just to talk about your first couple sentences. Not all prisons fail in regards to rehabilitation -- I've totally seen an article or two talking about how Norway/Swedens prisons systems attempt to get people back on the right track.

People forget that in the US, the typical mentality towards criminals is that they're horrible people -- mostly non dependent on the crime itself. We're just starting to come around to the idea that people shouldn't be in jail for a long time (or at all) for non violent crimes related to drugs possession.

It's going to take sometime to lower mandatory minimums, and turn jails into a place of rehabilitation instead of a place of punishment and pain/suffering.

i would consider that things could b done
for instance if a man kills 3 people. in a country that has 30year max thats 3 charges thus 90 years
for sexual assault
you could have like non-violent touching of a non consenting adult X
you could have like non-violent touching of a non consenting child XX
you could have like violent touching of a non consenting adult XX
you could have like violent touching of a non consenting child XXX
and then multiplied by the number of incidences
not just incidence meaning occassions it occured but also, adding other charges of a single occassion where person was threated, tied up a weapon was involved. it all adds up

thus a butt grab is not treated the same as a violent rape at knife point

i would be ok with castration for sexually based physical acts like rape
as for just being caught drinking at a bar and on the way caught short peeing in a bush treated as a sexual offense. i think would be rediculous to then give same punishment as a rapist

i dont see being plugged into a 'matrix' style system to live out your punishment. or being put into hibernation/frozn for prison length (movies like demolition man and minority report concepts)
though cheaper to monitor if they are all 'asleep' thus wont need guards i still think being awake and in a position to reflect on what they done should be prioritised rather than just getting through their sentance.
so rehab neds to be part of it, if there was to be any consideration of 'early release'

i think for early release bing just not doing bad stuff in prison.. is stupid. doing time by default should be that you dont do anything bad. and i think if you do do bad stuff in prison your time is extended

yes physical harm neds separating from society. whether its domestic abuse, a punch up, rape murder. obviously separate from society. but the time scales should be based on the harm done multiplied by how many incidences

as for non violent crimes well it cant be just a fine, there should be other things. even things not even tried before
i know things like running a ponzi also has things like not allowed to be a CEO again or not allowed to work in the finance section of an industry or company

but i still think financial crimes that are fins should be related to incomes. EG not a set $500 fine for a speeding ticket but instead $500 for minimum wage with it incrementing up in multiples of what income that person has

because some rich lambo owners think the price of hiring a private race track is more expensive than just driving normal roads and take the risk getting caught, so they just drive fast on public roads

I agree with community service for not so serious crimes. This way he can repay his crime in a short period of time at the same time help the community.  For a heinous crime like murder, arson, etc,, I think is better to separate him from society for a period of time, as a prisoner. Parole to be given if he really reformed to become a good person.