Topic: 🥕🔎 A survey of Taproot Assets Protocol with Tiramisu (Read 211 times)

every taproot assets node is at minimum hosting the assets it is holding. but yes if all taproot assets nodes are deleted there is no way to recover the assets.

Same is true about the lightning network though - if you loose the DB of your LND you loose the value in your channels.

Taproot assets is not the only protocol using this approach with off-chain data. RGB uses the same concept only more complicated with more features.

also note there is no immutable database that stores the assets in an unhashed auditable format. nor is the list of victims locked via any work/effort

so blink and they are gone when the group decides they had enough scamming and need to run before getting caught..

just like satoshi left and no one can move his coins.. the federation of multisig can just say no to signing updated lists of hidden iou claims

the supposed 27k drop victims dont all have signing access to the federation main multisig(funding keyring)
so they have no control/ownership authority, just iou listed dupes on a list that is not immutable.. as the clown OP admits when talking about the federation universe (multisig+ hidden from blockchain list of IOU victims)managed by tiramisu

so yea.. just sham from start to finish

(seems someone is a star trek fan*.. much like the blockstream crowd had court cases on the mind when they buzzworded witnesses)

there are reasons blockchains became a thing and why unchained assets never worked out without the invention of blockchains being the immutable ledger

these unchained systems are old-tech.. like pre 2009 era stuff .. they call them smart contracts.. but they are not that smart. its just a buzzword, to fake trust in partnerships. rather than truly immutable guarantee

when people realise why bitcoin works and why it became a wonder in 2009 they will realise why unchained systems are flawed

*geek-note:
when the crew onboard the federation were being hunted, they were unable to feed themselves. they used a unfinished system that would only create tiramisu..
hmm too many coincidental buzzwords to a reference  

As DooMAD said, "demand" is not the same as "need".

There was plenty of demand for NFT pictures in 2021, not really any need for them though. It was just a speculative fad. There are actual real use cases for NFTs, but pictures aren't one of them because anyone can copy-paste the important data in a picture - the image. For an NFT to have a real use case it needs to ALLOW the owner to do something rather than the "important" part just being the data, cuz data can be copied so if the important part is the data it's not really non-fungible since anyone can copy it.

Meme tokens have demand, and literally no need. 100% speculation, 0% use case.

App tokens have demand, but I've never really seen any big need. The main reason to create a new one-off token for an app is to make the creators rich. There may be a few use cases but few crypto app companies mint their own tokens for any reason other than it being a funding vehicle.

But sure there are some actual use cases for tokens, it's just that the vast majority of tokens have no reason to exist other than to make the creators rich, and the users only use them to try to get rich off of as well, and once the fad ends the token doesn't even have that anymore.

That is incorrect . The full metadata that is stored in "hashed" form on blockchain is stored in its full form in a taproot assets concept called Universes.

Universes are federated and any node holding a token is also hosting its data in its own universe.

You can find all assets minted with Tiramisu here
https://terminal.lightning.engineering/assets/
https://explorer.royllo.org

Tiramisu is the only actor exchanging the assets for BTC but I would say the ownership of the asset and its metadata on Taproot Assets in pretty solid.

to even prove a junk hash metadata of a transaction is even a valid junk known by a certain name... (which YOU admit is not revealed on the bitcoin blockchain.) requires appealing to the tiramisu liquidity pool that manages the hidden list of IOU claimed holders.. (which you also admit to, but pretend to now not understand)

because the list does not exist on some immutable ledger.. the tiramisu liquidity pool can just go offline and boom. gone
the supposed 26k holders then have no reference to legitimise its IOU

do you understand why blockchains solved a problem the "digital money" cypherpunks had for decades before bitcoin came along
do you understand why when there is no network wide audit and ledger that the list can be edited.

im not suggesting that bloating bitcoin with all junk is a solution. im saying a scam within a scam on a flawed unaudited subnetwork is a laugh within a laugh within a laugh made by clowns

as for a and b:

I don't see a point arguing about the definition of ownership.

as for c:

Taproot assets protocol is NOT developed by Tiramisu. The protocol is developed by Lightning Labs. Here is the repo https://github.com/lightninglabs/taproot-assets .

Hosting your own taproot assets node and holding your own token does not require Tiramisu.

Users can mint their tokens outside of Tiramisu and import the coin into Tiramisu to make it available for others as well.

Tiramisu provides services of:
1.) Access to tokens + NFTs - you can buy coins either in an OTC fashion or from the LP
2.) Discoverability of tokens + NFTs on the protocol - you can find what coins there are

I do not understand your argument with group association / request communication.

As for there being no exit from Tiramisu:
You can self host taproot assets in your own taproot assets node. Tiramisu supports taproot assets withdrawals . You can self-custody the coins on your raspberry Pi.
Here is a manual on how to do it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1jl4SVEo3M

As for taproot assets transactions being junk:
We are paying unchain transaction fees like everyone else. If you have better use for the block space you are free to pay more . That being said Taproot assets are very block-space friendly. When taproot assets start trading on lightning there will be no need for one transaction per minting / asset transfer.

a, thank you for admitting there are not 26k OWNERS and only 26k iou HOLDERS(used losely, more like given space on tiramisu list)
b. as for the settling. because there is no network wide list. which you admit tiramisu is the liquidity pool. they have the list of IOU claims
c. even if a user gets some sats out of LN paying 10,000sat fee to get a sat out that purports to have token association.
    the user has to then communicate and request entering tiramisu again to join/prove association again in the group. meaning still under tiramisu
    management of junk.
    EG to prove an alleged exit involves verification of the tiramisu list. as would re-entering LN involves requesting tiramisu verifying its list

All of the 26K holders of MAXI can independently jump out of Tiramisu and self-custody their tokens if they can pay the onchain fee of ~10 000 SATs . Here is a manual how to install Tapd on top of lnd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obqQXlxa1Ws . You can validate that the coin was minted correctly on other taproot asset explorers such as https://terminal.lightning.engineering/assets/ and searching the asset by ID.

As for settling a claim and exchanging MAXI for BTC: Tiramisu is the only operator of a Liquidity pool as of now who will exchange MAXI for BTC as of now. With other coins for example $AC there are communities that exchange $AC for BTC outside of Tiramisu. $AC coin has 50 sanding orders as of now just on Tiramisu. There however isn't a non-custodial LP like you see with ETH and SOL tokens.

You are correct Tiramisu processes transactions internally. It however supports withdrawals in taproot assets as well as deposits. This means that you can hold the assets in your own node and only deposit them into Tiramisu to trade them.  This will be improved as Taproot Assets become transferable over lightning network. At that point Tiramisu will become an edge node between taproot assets channels and BTC channels.

While I'm sure everyone appreciates the more resource-efficient approach these projects are taking, it doesn't necessarily imply that these projects have real-world use-cases.  Much of it still comes across as opportunistic hype to sell needless tokens to impressionable newbies.  

Where is the legitimacy and genuine need in all this?  "Demand" is not the same as "Need". 

no its not
by having people stuck in the tiramisu group trying to re-scam (selling) their IOU position in the tiramisu scam hidden list.  doesnt allow them to exit independently with said junk they are claim to be owed. thus not a real token under any definition.

instead the tiramisu creates junk, annoys actual bitcoiners with junk TX  onchain, with tx's that has no signature independent full nodes can distinguish, which.. if the majority of a block is junk thats not independently verifiable by a distinguishable signature.. and causing congestion.. and fee's. it just ends up with people switching off their full nodes and stop transacting

but atleast we know one of the clowns advertising this scam junk. thanks for revealing yourself

edit
and another clown that loves making bitcoin annoying to promote a scam and the flawed subnetwork responds below.. pretending to be against the scam whilst not wanting them to stop. even when he then cries that genuine purchases using bitcoin should stop being done using the bitcoin network

As for why have tokens:

You can use tokens to represent something other than Bitcoin on the blockchain.

We are seeing use cases with stable coins, domain names, tokenized stock, tokenized options. This would give people who run Tap on top of their lightning nodes the option to trade these tokens. Adoption of Taproot Assets will result in wider BTC adoption.

I admit that the coins I have shared in the original post do not achieve this and are mostly just meme coins.

As for the world needing / not needing meme coins and NFTs:

You cannot deny that there is demand both for NFTs as well as different alt coins. Tiramisu and Taproot Assets Protocol is simply serving these needs and with something running on Bitcoin blockchain. If we don't lure these people into BTC they will go into ETH and SOL.

As for Tiramisu serving Bitcoin:

It is an onramp for people from ETH and SOL ecosystem into the BTC ecosystem. Tiramisu uses BTC as a default currency and both LN and unchain Bitcoin is supported. Also all coin Liquidity pools hold BTC. This increases BTC demand.

Why have tokens? Tokens are the mistake people brought to the world of cryptocurrencies.

The only reason I've ever seen for making tokens is for the creator to try to get rich quick.

Each market cycle as tokens go through their fad moment and then plummet, the cryptocurrency world is slowly realizing tokenization is not a thing anyone wants.

The world doesn't care about having a million tokens, useless meme tokens, a token for every app, copy-pastable NFT pictures, etc



The only question worth answering is what Tiramisu does to improve bitcoin usage. Talking about tokens is a red flag.

there is no splitting out of the airdrops to 26k people to settle out of the tiramisu management to claim real solo ownership independently..
..the junk stays in the tiramisu ownership(used loosely as its junk IOU scheme of faked ownership claims people can never get) thus individuals dont have ownership. just IOU claims of junk
#not-your-key-not-your-junk

yes tiramisu keeps a separate list hidden from blockchain of the number of actual/potential scammed victims that just have IOU list of the tiramisu database.. but those supposed 26k cant jump out of the tiramisu ownership to settle and claim independently.. else there would be more then 1 output and 1 change address in the minting spend

and yes i totally agree with you. tiramisu having a list of 26k channels it purports to give airdrops. but this does not mean there are 26k owners that are trading it actively, nor officiating their claim by settling their property outside of tiramisu "ownership"(used loosely)

..
remember.. from the 1990's to 2008 there were reason the cypherpunks group had many idea's of digital money/assets but each found a piece missing that left all their idea's flawed, and why their digital money and digital assets would not work in reality.. .. until bitcoin.. because bitcoin solved the missing piece of the puzzle that allowed settlement and proof of ownership.. something these junk dont do and dont have
learn why bitcoin was invented and how it works and what it does thats different to non-chain idea's..  then you will see the flaws of the non-chain schemes

Yeah a lot of taproot assets users are Ordinals people. There is a lot of overlap.

As for MAXI - MAXI really has 26K holders as it was airdropped. It doesn't mean the coin is super valuable or that all users do transaction every day.

As for the UTXO - what you are describing is not how taproot assets work.
This is the minting transaction https://live.blockcypher.com/btc/tx/0e001025300d9f3a2e9e39f8f09c4fcb273a8af1e7df7128b901d7ffcefffbc9/ The transactions you are seeing after that is user withdrawing different amounts. You will not be able to see the amounts on blockchain as this info is stored in universes.

These are early tokens minted by different users. You are right they are mostly meme coins and Meme NFTs.

As for novel things taproot assets could be used for: StableCoins, tokenized stock and tokenized options traded on lightning is what we could see one day. It can also be used how ticket sales and voting. People also want to sell names / domain names on taproot assets.

I am sure there is many more applications of taproot assets we can even think about.

Taproot Asset is somewhat more popular than i expect since there are 100+ assets on it.


I'd say it create less bloat for Bitcoin blockchain.


Even after reading the BIP proposal[1] and some documentation[2], it looks like there's nothing much you could do. The only somewhat interesting i find is ownership by multiple people and perform atomic swap between BTC and certain asset.

[1] https://github.com/Roasbeef/bips/blob/bip-tap/bip-tap.mediawiki
[2] https://docs.lightning.engineering/the-lightning-network/taproot-assets

What is the purpose of having all of these tokens on Taproot Assets?

Hopefully, you can come up with a better explanation than Ordinals had.

Since Taproot Assets (as the name implies) should be able to create more than just a few tokens, I'd like to see some more novel things that people can do with the protocol. A bunch of tokens just isn't going to cut it.

SCAMS
lets dig into the scam of buying nothing, owning nothing on the lightning network

take MAXI minting txid
https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/transactions/btc/0e001025300d9f3a2e9e39f8f09c4fcb273a8af1e7df7128b901d7ffcefffbc9
then spent
https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/transactions/btc/4897b942bbc092b8802e6d60d9460930cd2f7bff577c1f80112e343dc4d1f121
tiramisu has already spent the SUPPOSED output that the mint belongs to
meaning its mint is no longer in the UTXOset
meaning its no longer has the channel that used it as funding the channel. thus.. GONE

what tirimasu are now ping ponging its own fake "26k holders" of is just fake trades where no one owns anything not even 1sat