A warning to Bitcoin users believing this will take over payment systems

Syke

legendary

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Quote from: BitcoinHodler on April 20, 2016, 08:33:04 AM

you should search for how many people are getting scammed because of charge-back. just google it and see some forum posts on social places like blackhatworld or reddit. there are a lot of people who have been scammed because of charge-back, the scammer buys the goods and then easily charges back and there is no way of proving by the seller in most of the times.

Correct. And it's worse than you can possibly imagine. I have a hundred examples. I won't go into details here because I don't want to give any scammers ideas. But I could easily chargeback any online purchase I've made. I can keep the merchandise and I get all my money back, at the merchant's expense. The credit card companies don't care because they've shifted the responsibility for fraud to the merchants, yet they refuse to give merchants the tools needed to fight fraud. Scammers love credit cards.

Wendigo

legendary

Activity: 2604

Merit: 1036

I would like to publicly apologize to everyone caught into this quarrel because it was my fault of interpreting the situation wrong. My sincere apologies to Carlton Banks and hope he is not very upset by my obnoxious behaviour.

I would like to affirm again that I am not anti-Bitcoin. Thank you.

BitcoinHodler

hero member

Activity: 1456

Merit: 579

HODLing is an art, not just a word...

Quote from: Wendigo on April 19, 2016, 10:21:00 PM

What are you going to do when the person on the other end of the peer-to-peer decentralized open-source transaction is a bad guy who takes your hard-earned coins and leaves? Can Satoshi Nakamoto help you get your money back? He tried to create an utopia where everyone can be trusted and Bitcoin can be the savior of the financial world but unfortunately the world is broken, the world is dirty and is going to shit faster than we can fix it because there is no cure for greed and this greed will end us all. Bitcoin is only safe in a wallet. Upon leaving said wallet there are no rules in place to save your ass if someone out there gets you. If you go back to my post that started this deviation in conversation you would see that I have said 1/ Bitcoin fees other than miners transaction fees will set you back more than a simple debit card which is true because the Bitcoin companies offering cards are there to make profit off you which is a fact and 2/ Bitcoin is not secure after it has left your wallet or someone gets into your wallet because you have no recourse to get it back.

you should search for how many people are getting scammed because of charge-back. just google it and see some forum posts on social places like blackhatworld or reddit. there are a lot of people who have been scammed because of charge-back, the scammer buys the goods and then easily charges back and there is no way of proving by the seller in most of the times.

Anon_7716

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

I am very grateful to you for having helped those of us who are confusion about sentences that sometimes become everyone's questions, but perl is known that the phrase "5 second confirm" is the mark by which time the block will be mined every 5 seconds. I think you have misread the article that plunges you in a hole that is not fact. I hope you can read the original article is not false

Syke

legendary

Activity: 3878

Merit: 1193

Quote from: Wendigo on April 19, 2016, 10:21:00 PM

What are you going to do when the person on the other end of the peer-to-peer decentralized open-source transaction is a bad guy who takes your hard-earned coins and leaves?

Nothing! That's how it should be. Grow up. Take responsibility for your own actions. Stop counting on mommy to bail you out when you screw up. Every time you screw up, I have to pay for it (chargebacks cause merchants to raise prices). I'm sick of paying for your failures.

AgentofCoin

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Wendigo on April 19, 2016, 10:21:00 PM

What are you going to do when the person on the other end of the peer-to-peer decentralized open-source transaction is a bad guy who takes your hard-earned coins and leaves? Can Satoshi Nakamoto help you get your money back? He tried to create an utopia where everyone can be trusted and Bitcoin can be the savior of the financial world but unfortunately the world is broken, the world is dirty and is going to shit faster than we can fix it because there is no cure for greed and this greed will end us all. Bitcoin is only safe in a wallet. Upon leaving said wallet there are no rules in place to save your ass if someone out there gets you. If you go back to my post that started this deviation in conversation you would see that I have said 1/ Bitcoin fees other than miners transaction fees will set you back more than a simple debit card which is true because the Bitcoin companies offering cards are there to make profit off you which is a fact and 2/ Bitcoin is not secure after it has left your wallet or someone gets into your wallet because you have no recourse to get it back.

I'm surprised you are a high level Hero Member, yet have these anti-bitcoin opinions.
Its seems by your understanding and interpretation, bitcoin should be more like credit cards.
I did not give my opinion to argue basics bitcoin philosophy, but to provide background.

If these are your concerns, why are you even bothering with bitcoin?
More importantly, what are your proposed fixes for the problems you outline?

BellaBitBit

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 500

Not worried here. 5 second confirmations are not a deal breaker and this could improve - this is still super fast. There simply is no competition for Bitcoin at this point and none in the foreseeable future. Bitcoin is #1 on the list of who will take over payment systems.

pooya87

legendary

Activity: 3472

Merit: 10611

you guys have to stop seeing the world in black and white, it is not like bitcoin is bad banks are good kind of situation. or even bitcoin is going to die and eth will replace it!!
everything has its pros and cons, you will never find a perfectly good or completely bad thing in the world. you can use any of them as you see fit to your situation.

if you think .... is good then use ...., there is no need to shove your opinion down other people's throats.

Wendigo

legendary

Activity: 2604

Merit: 1036

What are you going to do when the person on the other end of the peer-to-peer decentralized open-source transaction is a bad guy who takes your hard-earned coins and leaves? Can Satoshi Nakamoto help you get your money back? He tried to create an utopia where everyone can be trusted and Bitcoin can be the savior of the financial world but unfortunately the world is broken, the world is dirty and is going to shit faster than we can fix it because there is no cure for greed and this greed will end us all. Bitcoin is only safe in a wallet. Upon leaving said wallet there are no rules in place to save your ass if someone out there gets you. If you go back to my post that started this deviation in conversation you would see that I have said 1/ Bitcoin fees other than miners transaction fees will set you back more than a simple debit card which is true because the Bitcoin companies offering cards are there to make profit off you which is a fact and 2/ Bitcoin is not secure after it has left your wallet or someone gets into your wallet because you have no recourse to get it back.

ProfessionalGoogler

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

Quote from: john-connor on April 19, 2016, 01:31:04 AM

Quote from: ProfessionalGoogler on April 13, 2016, 06:09:22 AM

Plain facts you want to ignore. Roll Eyes

100% of your naysayers are either:

1. Lying
2. Ignorant
3. Unable to think outside of the box

Poloniex accepted Zero Confirmation Transactions for XVC over a testing period of 6 months (now only 1 confirmation like BTC). Because XVC implements the ZeroTime protocol this was 100% safe. We performed transactions during this time worth 10's of thousands of dollars, depositing, selling the XVC and withdrawing the Bitcoin BEFORE the XVC was inserted into a block. Poloniex has never lost any XVC. For those not familiar with ZeroTime it is a contract between you and the recipient forged instantly and confirmed on average ~3 seconds. The contract (ztlock) lives on the network and is periodically rebroadcast via the recipient until a block event occurs. It also has an additional interrogation protocol. This July ZeroTime will be one year old and nobody has been able to break it (bounty was offered).

That said, this forkless, yes you heard me, forkless protocol can be implemented into Bitcoin in as little as two weeks. The ZeroTime locked contract gives Bitcoin ~3 second "off chain" confirmations for all parties in a secure and cryptographic manner while preventing malleability and double spending.

This topic has already been solved for a long time.

I watch your coin for some time now..

You do realise I've been talking about the CURRENT STATE of Bitcoin and how OTHERS have been the "naysayers" in this thread.. Cheesy

Bitcoin refuses to change like Grandpa!

Too much of "well Bitcoin CAN do this and that" but not enough from the dev team to make it happen.

AgentofCoin

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1001

Wendigo is probably being sarcastic when talking with Carlton Banks.
In the event he would like a rational why chargebacks are against bitcoins purpose,
below is my simple opinion.

Without getting into all the details and the speculation around such details,
it is believed (IMO) within the Bitcoin community that Satoshi Nakamoto wanted to
create Bitcoin/bitcoin not only to created the first successful decentralized online
payment system, but also as a way to protect people from the manipulative and
destructive current world financial system. Many of the features of that world
system, such as the ability of chargebacks, quantitative easing, bailouts, and etc, are
actually fundamental problems in that system that allows for massive fraud, debt,
inflation, scams, theft and ultimately financial collapses that only hurts the common
person at the end of it all.

So, simply not allowing chargebacks is a plus to Bitcoin. If they were allowed or part
of the protocol, then there would be no point in using Bitcoin/bitcoin.

Wendigo

legendary

Activity: 2604

Merit: 1036

I am really enjoying your pompous speech and haughtiness, your highness. Please continue to enlighten me. Thanks for the entertaining evening.

Carlton Banks

legendary

Activity: 3430

Merit: 3080

If you can't teach the fundamentals to yourself in 3 years of being involved, there's no way I would even contemplate such an uphill struggle, even if you weren't being obnoxious. Throw in ignorance, arrogance and intransigence, well, damn, you've gotta be kidding me

Wendigo

legendary

Activity: 2604

Merit: 1036

Okay so I am very ignorant I get it now. Please enlighten me as to what is the rationale behind Bitcoin I need to know so badly so I can live a fulfilling life and die a happy person? Please mister help a fellow forum member. I don't want to live in the dark any more been here for 3 years.

Carlton Banks

legendary

Activity: 3430

Merit: 3080

Quote from: mindrust on April 19, 2016, 02:35:58 PM

I must say i am with you on this one, OP.

Transfer times are more than 1 hour even if you use fees and that is unacceptable to me. World changes too fast and 1 hour can make a huge difference in your life.

I demand that the pair of you produce a forked client with a 5 second average block interval. I'm sure you'll find the support you need, I mean, this issue has nevvvvvvvvvver been looked at before lol

mindrust

legendary

Activity: 3276

Merit: 2442

I must say i am with you on this one, OP.

Transfer times are more than 1 hour even if you use fees and that is unacceptable to me. World changes too fast and 1 hour can make a huge difference in your life.

Carlton Banks

legendary

Activity: 3430

Merit: 3080

Quote from: Wendigo on April 19, 2016, 02:22:23 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on April 19, 2016, 02:11:31 PM

Quote from: Wendigo

Actually I have dealt with scammers before and if you go to your bank and explain what's going on and provide evidence that you are the one getting scammed they can retrieve your money because as you know or maybe you don't know your money isn't permanently lost once you have made a transaction.
Good luck achieving that next time you get scammed by a Bitcoin merchant or an exchange getting breached.

I am not ignorant but my answer to you is : The pot calling the kettle black Grin

Banks reimburse customers before ever recovering stolen funds. They can literally create the money to reimburse you (and essentially do, it comes from an insurance fund which is basically a proxy for that very action), so the incentive to retrieve stolen money isn't that high.

Re: ignorance; isn't it you that's here on the Bitcointalk forum, trying to convince people that chargebacks are cool and that Banks are such a great way to do business? Please

I am not convincing anyone of anything. My point still stands though - can you get your Bitcoins back after a bad transaction? Yes or no?

Who implied otherwise?

Quote from: Wendigo on April 19, 2016, 02:22:23 PM

Don't play the card that I am anti-Bitcoin which I am not in the slightest. Please mister.

This is a forum and I am free to voice my opinion which may differ from yours obviously.

If you knew about the rationale behind Bitcoin, you wouldn't be discussing chargebacks as a drawback at all. What next, I suppose you're going to tell us that the merchant should pay the tx fees so as to encourage commerce lol. Yeah, you've got your opinion, and you're free to express it. Ignorantly.

Slowturtleinc

member

Activity: 84

Merit: 10

Hard to understand these threads that keep materializing to what kill bitcoin? Seems pointless to bang the same issue over and over about transaction times.
If it becomes a big issue we can fix it,do not worry about little things that the community will eventually solve together.

NyeFe

hero member

Activity: 699

Merit: 501

Quote from: Wendigo on April 19, 2016, 02:22:23 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on April 19, 2016, 02:11:31 PM

Quote from: Wendigo

Actually I have dealt with scammers before and if you go to your bank and explain what's going on and provide evidence that you are the one getting scammed they can retrieve your money because as you know or maybe you don't know your money isn't permanently lost once you have made a transaction.
Good luck achieving that next time you get scammed by a Bitcoin merchant or an exchange getting breached.

I am not ignorant but my answer to you is : The pot calling the kettle black Grin

Banks reimburse customers before ever recovering stolen funds. They can literally create the money to reimburse you (and essentially do, it comes from an insurance fund which is basically a proxy for that very action), so the incentive to retrieve stolen money isn't that high.

Re: ignorance; isn't it you that's here on the Bitcointalk forum, trying to convince people that chargebacks are cool and that Banks are such a great way to do business? Please

I am not convincing anyone of anything. My point still stands though - can you get your Bitcoins back after a bad transaction? Yes or no?

Don't play the card that I am anti-Bitcoin which I am not in the slightest. Please mister.

This a forum and I am free to voice my opinion which may differ from yours obviously.

Good point, you can't get your bitcoins back after a back transaction.
The same goes with fiat and wire transfer (non-reversible)

"Lets twist the table." Merchants are faced with a 50%-50% possibility of users illegally using charge back systems to obtain refunds, after purchase. With bitcoin, this threat is eliminate for merchant.

So we could say that Bitcoin is like the inverse of Fiat, but, lets not forget the existent of escrows, which tilts the scores to make DigitalCurrencies more favorable.

Raja_MBZ

legendary

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Merit: 1520

Smells like... promotion of an altcoin!

Topic: A warning to Bitcoin users believing this will take over payment systems (Read 2994 times)