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Topic: aaaand here we go again - page 2. (Read 3752 times)

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
April 14, 2017, 08:21:16 PM
#48

There the thing. Is it not possible to automatically prune transactions data more than 1 year old? Will this then make the size of blockchain manageable?
 

Yes there are checkpoint blocks and Core seems to think they are a good idea for that reason.

Just to double check. By prune, i meant remove data older than 1 year.

Would it be practical to keep the full blockchain in a few storage facilities worldwide, justt so that we have a record, but limit the working blockchain to the first time every address was used, and the last 3 or 4 times it was used? Of course, if an address isn't used for more than a year, only save the first and the last.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
April 14, 2017, 05:35:00 PM
#47

There the thing. Is it not possible to automatically prune transactions data more than 1 year old? Will this then make the size of blockchain manageable?
 

Yes there are checkpoint blocks and Core seems to think they are a good idea for that reason.

Just to double check. By prune, i meant remove data older than 1 year.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
April 14, 2017, 05:04:36 PM
#46

There the thing. Is it not possible to automatically prune transactions data more than 1 year old? Will this then make the size of blockchain manageable?
 

Yes there are checkpoint blocks and Core seems to think they are a good idea for that reason.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
April 14, 2017, 04:34:33 PM
#45
Making blocks larger does not necessarily mean that miners will earn more transaction fees. Larger blocks will simply fill up with free transactions until there is once again pressure to compete to have your transaction included in the next block. Once there is pressure again, coffee drinkers will resume their complaining or the blocks will have to be made even larger. That's not a valid solution for either coffee drinkers or decentralizationists.

Using a second layer which can aggregate many small transactions (with small fees) into a single on-chain transaction (with a large fee) is beneficial for both coffee drinkers and decentralizationists, however.

There will only be demand for Bitcoin transactions if Bitcoin offers something unique, which in my mind is a system which allows censorship-proof transactions and a seize-proof store of value. Increasing the resources required to maintain the block chain is in direct opposition to the properties which promote decentralization. A system where you have to record every transaction into a permanent ledger which all full nodes must maintain forever will never be able to compete with centralized solutions when it comes to speed and efficiency, so I'm not sure why we should base future improvements on attempting the impossible when we can base them on strengthening the very properties which gives Bitcoin it's unique use cases and thus it's value.

There is no mainstream demand for Bitcoin transactions (I'm not sure why "big blockers" like to pretend there is). The only people who will find it valuable are those who are willing to intentionally evade the capital controls implemented by their governments. Pretending it can compete with more efficient, centralized solutions while maintaining the properties that make it valuable, and attempting to "improve" the protocol based on those imaginary use cases, is pure folly. The average debt slave can't even write a check for $500, so I'm not sure why anyone would think they are going to purchase bitcoins in order to make their everyday, mundane purchases.

Pretending other cryptocurrencies (which must also maintain a permanent ledger) won't run into the same issues as Bitcoin should they obtain similar usage is silly.

I think I've fully acknowledged every possibility in your post.

Transactions should not be free. At current price 1000 sats should be the minimum.

What kind of second layer - LN? At the moment i am suspicious of any second layer that will take away transaction fees from miners due to decreasing block rewards. It is not something we all need to rush into right now. It does take time and lots of thinking before making a decision. There are always people trying to manipulative a situation to their advantage/agenda that isn't always fully revealed.

There the thing. Is it not possible to automatically prune transactions data more than 1 year old? Will this then make the size of blockchain manageable?

Not really. I do think that rushing into something now when the demand isn't there isn't right, except for doubling the blocksize to 2mb for now is the most simple solution, better than BU and Segwit. The demand maybe there in the future. I do know friends who are not yet involved, but may do so if it was easier to use and has reasons for using it. There is nothing wrong with researching and debating for now, so when the time comes it can be implemented quickly.

The average debt slave can't even write a check for $500 - if they had any sense, they should invest and wait to clear their debts.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
April 14, 2017, 02:53:20 PM
#44


Note that Satoshi only mentioned "nodes", not miners!

Satoshi did not make the distinction.  His vision was that all full nodes are miners.  Ordinary users will be SPV clients.

Right, in Satoshi's day, the client software was the node, sent and received coins, and mined for blocks using a CPU.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
April 14, 2017, 02:24:21 PM
#43
We are down to less than 43,000 unconfirmed, even though it was over 60,000 this morning.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
April 14, 2017, 12:44:33 PM
#42
Beg your pool operator overlords to fix it for you!

They can do it via the

obvious simple move (literally 1 line of code)

Yes, and no. With about 90% of nodes still using Core, only a little over 10% will validate the bigger blocks. Miners might be waiting to get that number higher. The problem is that this could have been done with a core update, but instead users have to pick a new client, whether classic, XT, BU, or just Core with the limit manually removed.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
April 14, 2017, 12:40:24 PM
#41


Note that Satoshi only mentioned "nodes", not miners!

Satoshi did not make the distinction.  His vision was that all full nodes are miners.  Ordinary users will be SPV clients.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
April 14, 2017, 12:33:08 PM
#40
almost 70k unconfirms in the mempool.

https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions

Today's congestion brought to you by 1-meg Greg and all the Blockstream superfriends.  Go team!


I think we just need to face it: Bitcoin can’t handle this many transactions, and in order for it to do so we need a change. Whether that be Segwit, BU, or something completely different I don’t know; but what I do know is that we can’t reach mass adoption without fixing this issue.
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 1031
April 14, 2017, 12:08:34 PM
#39
I could be wrong but isn't this likely to be from bitcoin unlimited somehow? I also would like to point that PushTX from BTC.com (acquired by bitmain who by the way supports BU) are down for maintenance, Is it possible that they have done that in purpose to make people use BU instead?
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
April 14, 2017, 11:58:01 AM
#38
Here's an interesting article about the fee market: https://medium.com/@johnblocke/the-fee-market-myth-b9d189e45096
I found a very interesting link inside this link: Bitcoin v0.1 released 2009-01-09 20:05:49 UTC, which shows release notes from Satoshi Nakamoto.
The basic idea was to create new Bitcoins as a subsidy for nodes:
Quote
When that runs out, the system can support transaction fees if
needed. It's based on open market competition, and there will
probably always be nodes willing to process transactions for free
.
Miners currently still get about $15,000 in Bitcoins every 10 minutes as a subsidy. It is incredibly harmful for Bitcoin's future that they want to squeeze more money in the form of fees out of users long before mass-adoption has been reached, and long before there is any need caused by a much lower Block subsidy.
Short-term financial goals vs a long-term electronic peer-to-peer cash system.

Note that Satoshi only mentioned "nodes", not miners! Nowadays Bitcoin nodes only support the network without earning from it, while the dedicated mining hardware gets the money.
As far as I understand SegWit, it could give something back to the nodes, and take away some of the power from miners.
sr. member
Activity: 2618
Merit: 439
April 14, 2017, 11:55:49 AM
#37
Yeah, my sig campaign earnings have been stuck in the network all day, but luckily I'm not standing in line at Starbucks paying for my coffee with bitcoin.  Ugh.

This is why bitcoin sucks as money, and it's kind of hard to deny if you're honest.  Nobody in their right mind would switch from fiat to bitcoin.

We have the same problem mate. Payment was late and it took 36 hours before the payment was credited to my wallet. But going back to the issue,  bitcoin cannot be used as a micro-payment now because of slow confirmation times. Only solution is to increased the transaction fees. I think dynamic they should implement like a dynamic block generation to really help the block size problem.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
April 14, 2017, 11:29:30 AM
#36
8 mb blocks please. Satoshi didn't even put in a hard limit. Adding block limit was a hardfork that should have never happened. Please fix miners.  Smiley Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
April 14, 2017, 11:29:21 AM
#35


Making blocks larger does not necessarily mean that miners will earn more transaction fees. Larger blocks will simply fill up with free transactions until there is once again pressure to compete to have your transaction included in the next block. Once there is pressure again, coffee drinkers will resume their complaining or the blocks will have to be made even larger. That's not a valid solution for either coffee drinkers or decentralizationists.
 

You have no proof of this.  You are postulating a tragedy-of-the-commons problem that many disagree with, and you are ignoring that block rewards will continue for decades.
Here's an interesting article about the fee market: https://medium.com/@johnblocke/the-fee-market-myth-b9d189e45096

Quote

There will only be demand for Bitcoin transactions if Bitcoin offers something unique

The only thing really unique about Bitcoin is the first mover advantage and network effect.  But those qualities won't last forever.

hero member
Activity: 676
Merit: 500
April 14, 2017, 11:27:52 AM
#34
Yeah, 70,000 garbage, no-fee transactions by tumblers and gambling sites.

The tumblers can go to hell. Bitcoin is not supposed to be Mastercard. It is a settlement system for people transferring significant amounts of money, not jokers buying sandwiches and playing nickel slots.

Hear, hear! Bitcoin is for the bourgeois elite who struggle to understand how anything less than 10 dollars (I'm not underestimating the elite, I hope) can be a significant amount of money. Bitcoin is only for certain businesses and not others. We ought to issue notices to sandwich shops and fast food outlets to stop accepting Bitcoin, they're really clogging up the network!

Jokers can go use Dogecoin and Litecoin, for example.

Sincerely,
a sandwich-buying joker.

Sounds like bagholder waiting to dump his 0.5 BTC and spending time dreaming about BTC rocketing and becoming more and more 'elite' Wink So, shall Bitcoin be only a toy for playing speculation games, or alternative tender of payment? It doesn't prove strength of Bitcoin at all - you can bet on on football results as well.
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1283
April 14, 2017, 11:12:13 AM
#33
I really hope we're not talking weeks of congestion again, just as everything seemed to be running smooth for a while, this happens.
Must also be really off putting for people who are just getting into Bitcoin.

I wouldn't recommend my friends to get into it in times like this.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1012
April 14, 2017, 10:49:48 AM
#32
if by 'shill' , you mean unpaid advocate for on chain scaling, Satoshi's vision of Bitcoin, and the entire community...then yes, guilty as charged.

If true (in bold), we wouldn't be having this same discussion for the past three, maybe four, years now.

But hey, I know you wouldn't dare let a little truth interfere with your narrative.

You're absolutely right -- I should have said "large portion of the community".

But you know what Holliday...I am still advocating for what you want:  A censorship resistant Bitcoin.

Do you think that because you have some experience running a node, you're now better suited to plan Bitcoin's future than Satoshi?  It was the plan all along to have large mining nodes.

You believe in the digital Gold concept of Bitcoin without fast , cheap transactions for coffee, but I wonder if you have really thought through the game theory here.  Bitcoin can only remain digital gold if it has high security.  It can only have high security if there's a lot of hash power.  It can only have a lot of hash power if the miners are getting paid a lot.  The miners can only get paid a lot if people are willing to pay a high price for Bitcoin.  People will only pay a high price for Bitcoin if there is a lot of demand.  Where does that demand come from?  It's a combination of a lot of things, but if you take away the demand for widespread use, if you take away the utility, then you are left with "well they demand it because it has high security".   So its somewhat circular logic.  It could work, but its questionable this will be able to compete in the long run with other cryptocurrencies that offer high security AND usability.   At least it is very risky.  You do not seem to acknowledge these possibilities.

A large portion of the community may want bigger blocks, but a larger portion of the community, measured by every metric besides pool operators, want a real scaling solution.

No, you aren't advocating for what I want. Giving more control to miners (which is what BU does) is not conducive to a censorship-proof Bitcoin.

I never suggested that I am better suited than satoshi to plan Bitcoin's future. However, I am willing to consider the opinions of many experts who are actively involved in Bitcoin. Since we've already had this argument and you've apparently forgotten, I'll quote myself to save time.

Satoshi was a genius. No doubt in my mind. Either that or a group of people well versed in many different fields.

However, that does not make him perfect, and relying on his now outdated comments on how to move Bitcoin into the future would be a mistake. His ghost lacks all the data we have amassed since he left us.

Also, sometimes inventions outgrow their inventors and become something they never expected them to be.

Satoshi's biggest failure, in my opinion, was not hardening mining against centralization (pools are actually worse than huge server farms IMO), and I've spent a large part of my time on Bitcointalk trying to get people to wake up to that fact.

Making blocks larger does not necessarily mean that miners will earn more transaction fees. Larger blocks will simply fill up with free transactions until there is once again pressure to compete to have your transaction included in the next block. Once there is pressure again, coffee drinkers will resume their complaining or the blocks will have to be made even larger. That's not a valid solution for either coffee drinkers or decentralizationists.

Using a second layer which can aggregate many small transactions (with small fees) into a single on-chain transaction (with a large fee) is beneficial for both coffee drinkers and decentralizationists, however.

There will only be demand for Bitcoin transactions if Bitcoin offers something unique, which in my mind is a system which allows censorship-proof transactions and a seize-proof store of value. Increasing the resources required to maintain the block chain is in direct opposition to the properties which promote decentralization. A system where you have to record every transaction into a permanent ledger which all full nodes must maintain forever will never be able to compete with centralized solutions when it comes to speed and efficiency, so I'm not sure why we should base future improvements on attempting the impossible when we can base them on strengthening the very properties which gives Bitcoin it's unique use cases and thus it's value.

There is no mainstream demand for Bitcoin transactions (I'm not sure why "big blockers" like to pretend there is). The only people who will find it valuable are those who are willing to intentionally evade the capital controls implemented by their governments. Pretending it can compete with more efficient, centralized solutions while maintaining the properties that make it valuable, and attempting to "improve" the protocol based on those imaginary use cases, is pure folly. The average debt slave can't even write a check for $500, so I'm not sure why anyone would think they are going to purchase bitcoins in order to make their everyday, mundane purchases.

Pretending other cryptocurrencies (which must also maintain a permanent ledger) won't run into the same issues as Bitcoin should they obtain similar usage is silly.

I think I've fully acknowledged every possibility in your post.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
April 14, 2017, 09:22:44 AM
#31
Actually, this shows that Bitcoin is coming into the mainstream market. Many of those unconfirmeds will be confirmed, but more will be added later.

All that the stupid fee does is to keep the price of Bitcoin down. If we didn't have fees, miners who mined wouldn't sell until the price was right for them. The price would go up - supply and demand.

Bitcoin is supposed to be free and open source. Get rid of the fees and let the thing run as it should, by supply and demand.

Cool
hero member
Activity: 1106
Merit: 503
BabelFish - FISH Token Sale at Sovryn
April 14, 2017, 08:59:35 AM
#30
More than 64k unconfirmed transactions still. This is one of the most important reason why Bitcoin cannot come into main stream market. No one will wait this long to buy a product or anything. This may give some serious hit to the Bitcoin, if it goes on like this.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
April 14, 2017, 08:50:07 AM
#29
if by 'shill' , you mean unpaid advocate for on chain scaling, Satoshi's vision of Bitcoin, and the entire community...then yes, guilty as charged.

If true (in bold), we wouldn't be having this same discussion for the past three, maybe four, years now.

But hey, I know you wouldn't dare let a little truth interfere with your narrative.

You're absolutely right -- I should have said "large portion of the community".

But you know what Holliday...I am still advocating for what you want:  A censorship resistant Bitcoin.

Do you think that because you have some experience running a node, you're now better suited to plan Bitcoin's future than Satoshi?  It was the plan all along to have large mining nodes.

You believe in the digital Gold concept of Bitcoin without fast , cheap transactions for coffee, but I wonder if you have really thought through the game theory here.  Bitcoin can only remain digital gold if it has high security.  It can only have high security if there's a lot of hash power.  It can only have a lot of hash power if the miners are getting paid a lot.  The miners can only get paid a lot if people are willing to pay a high price for Bitcoin.  People will only pay a high price for Bitcoin if there is a lot of demand.  Where does that demand come from?  It's a combination of a lot of things, but if you take away the demand for widespread use, if you take away the utility, then you are left with "well they demand it because it has high security".   So its somewhat circular logic.  It could work, but its questionable this will be able to compete in the long run with other cryptocurrencies that offer high security AND usability.   At least it is very risky.  You do not seem to acknowledge these possibilities. 
 





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